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Star-Gazer
Trust and you'll be trusted

Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:21 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:14 pm 
 

inspired by another thread where someone mentioned that if they only listened to music that represented their political bent, they would be greatly limiting themselves

so, I was wondering, if I were to do this, who would I have to listen to?

the only metal band I know of with libertarian ideology is Scissorfight
are there any others?


for the sake of argument, I am defining libertarian with an Ayn Rand quote:
"The only proper functions of a government are: the police, to protect you from criminals; the army, to protect you from foreign invaders; and the courts, to protect your property and contracts from breach or fraud by others, to settle disputes by rational rules, according to objective law. "
(basically legalize drugs, repeal most gun laws, no social welfare programs, out with the Fed, IRS, and thousands upon thousands of other government programs; thereby lowering taxes for all)

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Tea_and_Crumpets
"Fail" is a sentence fragment.

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:00 pm
Posts: 277
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:30 pm 
 

Ayn Rand advocated Objectivism which is not the same as Libertarianism. Do not mix the two up, they are certainly different.

If you want some true libertarian writings check out the wonderful Cato institute, it has many great papers.

As for bands no idea - but I know hellsunicorn has looked into the political views of David Mustain and other people....

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HowDisgusting
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:39 pm
Posts: 1709
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:43 pm 
 

Most metal bands tend to be left-of-center, falling in line roughly with anarcho-syndicalism, which has some overlap with libertarianism.

[shrug]
That's all I can add to the conversation.
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Reid
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:33 pm
Posts: 326
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:48 pm 
 

Rush has some libertarian songs, however the names escape me at this moment.

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probert
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:44 pm
Posts: 447
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:51 pm 
 

einvolk wrote:
for the sake of argument, I am defining libertarian with an Ayn Rand quote:


Image

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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 7459
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:53 pm 
 

As a blanket statement...what is disagreeable with that quote and Libertarianism? Especially on the surface.

As for bands....jeez....I'll really have to look around.
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Star-Gazer
Trust and you'll be trusted

Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:21 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:07 pm 
 

probert wrote:
einvolk wrote:
for the sake of argument, I am defining libertarian with an Ayn Rand quote:


Image
Tea_and_Crumpets wrote:
Ayn Rand advocated Objectivism which is not the same as Libertarianism. Do not mix the two up, they are certainly different.
before we get too off target (I figured some would have a problem with me citing Ayn Rand)
yes, I am well aware that Objectivism and libertarianism are separate, but they have MUCH overlap

the quote I used was simplification for those who hadn't the slightest what libertarianism is - it didn't really matter the source - it was the content of that particular sentence which, for me, boils down the most important aspects of libertarianism
(and I followed it up with some other basics just to be clear it wasn't meant to go in the Objectivist direction)
Tea_and_Crumpets wrote:
If you want some true libertarian writings check out the wonderful Cato institute, it has many great papers.
yes, big fan I ve been a fan since I heard PJ O ROrurke (check out his books, if you have not) on Larry King's radio program 15 or so years ago and did some more digging
you may want to check out this piece
but you do make a good point - what is "true" libertarianism? is Chomsky a libertarian? are those who live out in the mountains free of gov't intervention more libertarian than the NY intellectual who is well-versed in Rothbard, Friedman, Von Mises, Hayek, etc?

but not to take this off course, I just want to be claer about the subject I am referencing

though, when it comes to metal bands and my request, I think close enough for lawn darts will work - we don't need to debate their worthiness as libertarians as long as they show at least some inclination towards that thought (though maybe a bit stronger evidence of such than HD suggested :) )


Last edited by Star-Gazer on Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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probert
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:44 pm
Posts: 447
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:17 pm 
 

my post was a result of my hate for ayn rand and love for that gif.

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Olias
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:35 pm
Posts: 384
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:28 pm 
 

probert wrote:
my post was a result of my hate for ayn rand and love for that gif.

no u

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Aoc
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:40 pm
Posts: 672
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:30 pm 
 

Reid wrote:
Rush has some libertarian songs, however the names escape me at this moment.
Freewill, Anthem, Witch Hunt, Tom Sawyer... to name a few.

Iron Maiden has some songs which relate to the subject as well.

This can help clarify some things too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertaria ... bjectivism

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Star-Gazer
Trust and you'll be trusted

Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:21 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:49 pm 
 

probert wrote:
my post was a result of my hate for ayn rand and love for that gif.
gif is awesome
watch the Donahue interview with Rand - it is amazing! I would have loved to sit and talk with her for hours

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DrSeuss
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:23 pm
Posts: 261
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:12 pm 
 

HowDisgusting wrote:
Most metal bands tend to be left-of-center, falling in line roughly with anarcho-syndicalism, which has some overlap with libertarianism.

[shrug]
That's all I can add to the conversation.


That's a pretty huge generalization. No one can honestly speak for MOST of what metal musicians and fans fall politically. You have people like Dave Mustaine and other thrashers who are lefties and then you have a whole sub grouping of metal bands falling to the complete opposite side of the spectrum in National Socialism and fascism. Metal if anything tends to be apolitical, which it should be. From what I can gather though, bands like Primordial, if you dissect and infer from the lyrical content is they oppose large government, which is in line with libertarianism. Obviously, that's just speculation, but I think it is a valid observation. Plus the whole heavy metal virtue of individualism also has libertarian overtones to it. I can't speak for everyone, but from the scene here in Chicago, which is pretty prominent and diverse, a lot of metal fans including my friends tend to lean more towards the moderate to right with a large proportion of people adhering to libertarianism (like I do), others are apolitical, some even take to socialism, and I've know of a small minority who are full blown marxists.

Like I said, metal should be apolitical, I would want to hear any metal bands growling "LOWER MY TAXES"

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Apteronotus
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 919
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:57 pm 
 

I saw a craigslist ad where a libertarian metal band was seeking members, shame it has since expired.

Anton LaVey was inspired by Rand so if you wanted to imagine that libertarianism is in anything based off of LaVey satanism you could stretch your imagination to think that a lot of music fits.

Actually I am sure someone could pick and choose various quotes and lyrics and make a compelling case that various artists held a wide variety of broadly defined beliefs.

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ExtremelyXBadXBreath
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:53 pm
Posts: 119
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:58 pm 
 

Well, since we now have Neo Conservatives like Anne Coulter claiming libertarianism, we can count MOD and Carnivore too. Yee Haw.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:05 am 
 

I don't know who told you Scissorfight were Libertarian but you'd never know by listening to them. They mostly single about bar room brawling and just crazy shit.

Rush is a good answer if you like them. The LaVeyan Satanist thing is also true but it seems like a lot of bands that use it focus on the anti-religious sentiments more so than the political ones. Also there is the question of whether or not they really understand what they're talking about. One of the most noticeable instances of this is Left Hand Path, and having just read that Decibel interview with Entombed from Precious Metal, their knowledge and interest in LaVey seemed pretty superficial.

Your best bet is finding punk or grind that focuses more on eliminating the government than it does getting it to help out people in need. I don't have any qualms with the Sex Pistols.

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dixiefriedrva
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:05 am
Posts: 2
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:47 am 
 

HowDisgusting wrote:
Most metal bands tend to be left-of-center, falling in line roughly with anarcho-syndicalism, which has some overlap with libertarianism.


I don't think that is true at all. Metal bands can be found on all sides of the political spectrum, and many non political. Right wing beliefs are pretty well accepted in metal, unlike punk, as long as they are not bigots (though that is certainly not a right wing only trait). Furthermore, certain left wing beliefs just don't jive with metal. Gun control for instance. A lot of metalheads are really into guns, including famous ones like Zakk Wylde and Dimebag.

If you want libertarian metal, Lemmy is a libertarian, Neil Pert, and ANTiSEEN are libertarians. I get the feeling that a lot of bands in the stoner/sludge genre are libertarians. I think Phil Anselmo would be if it weren't for Katrina. There are plenty more though. I know so many libertarian metalheads, to the point that I would say most of my libertarian friends are metalheads, and most of my metal friends are libertarians. And then of course there's the whole libertarian-and-don't-know-it thing. I mean even though only about 1% identify as libertarians, probably a good 20% of Americans lean libertarian. Any socially liberal
Democrat with moderate economic views, or Republican with moderate social views, mathematically come out towards the libertarian side. \

ExtremelyXBadXBreath wrote:
Well, since we now have Neo Conservatives like Anne Coulter claiming libertarianism, we can count MOD and Carnivore too. Yee Haw.


Did she really? I had heard she tried to run as a spoiler against a Republican she didn't like as a Libertarian, but the LP rejected her. Now a guy like Glen Beck could reasonably call himself "libertarianish" since for instance he opposes the drug war, and generally dislikes most Republicans. Ann Coulter, who once said she was not a big fan of the First Amendment, obviously can't even claim to be close. I don't think anyone who knows one iota about libertarianism would believe her.

As for the whole Ayn Rand, libertarianism vs Objectivism thing, here's the problem with combing the two. The most obvious is that Ayn Rand lambasted libertarianism, though it was clear that she didn't really know what it is. Next problem is that the Objectivist group is run so non-libertarian, under her directions. Objectivists can disagree on very little, for instance all most firmly deny the existence of a god or anything supernatural. Finally, libertarians don't believe in government charity, but that does not believe that we are against altruism, as Ayn Rand so clearly stated. I personally, being, at least by my own definition a Christian, believe that charity and helping others is an absolute necessity to being a good person. If I ever made a substantial amount of money, I'd donate at least 2/3 of it. I also don't believe that greed is good. I believe that greed is

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:03 pm 
 

The most important part of it is that you should be able to chose what to do with your own money. If you are greedy in the sense that you continually try to generate more wealth that will probably also end up helping the economy, but you shouldn't feel obligated to do that either should you choose not to.

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Star-Gazer
Trust and you'll be trusted

Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:21 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:57 pm 
 

awm wrote:
I don't know who told you Scissorfight were Libertarian but you'd never know by listening to them. They mostly single about bar room brawling and just crazy shit.
I first read it in some interview/write-up about the band back in 97 or so - maybe it was in Metal Maniacs - but I have seen it subsequently mention here and there since

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:13 pm 
 

New Hampshire's alrigght... if you like fiiiightinnn'

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Zombie_Quixote
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:00 pm
Posts: 254
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:50 pm 
 

Ayn Rand was a big smelly cunt. Not even the Marquis de Sade would have hit that.

---

On topic, kind of:

Libertarian metal?

We're looking for music to validate our political views now?

I have the same opinion on this that I had about not listening to music that contradicts one's religious beliefs (or lackthereof).

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shecriedyoucaved
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:32 pm
Posts: 77
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:19 pm 
 

When the concept of "libertarianism" developed in Europe, it was synonymous with anarchism. That is: anti-state, anti-capitalist, anti-authoritarian.

In the U.S. however, the word "libertarian" has been highjacked by the right wing to refer to "anti-state" (that is anti-welfare), pro-business, extremely hierarchical political parties. Right wing Libertarianism (what Ayn Rand and others preached) is a form of crypto-fascism. If you're into the fascist thing, there are tons of NSBM bands to check out, most all of them awful.

There are tons of great left-libertarian (anarchist) metal bands. Not surprisingly, a lot are influenced by grindcore, hardcore, and crust. Check out Napalm Death, Iskra, Discharge, Nasum, Agathocles, Unholy Grave, Extreme Noise Terror, Acme, and many others.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:13 am 
 

Zombie_Quixote wrote:
Ayn Rand was a big smelly cunt. Not even the Marquis de Sade would have hit that.

---

On topic, kind of:

Libertarian metal?

We're looking for music to validate our political views now?

I have the same opinion on this that I had about not listening to music that contradicts one's religious beliefs (or lackthereof).


Great well we'll just go to that thread to see what kind of great snarky comments you had for that one.

shecriedyoucaved wrote:
When the concept of "libertarianism" developed in Europe, it was synonymous with anarchism. That is: anti-state, anti-capitalist, anti-authoritarian.

In the U.S. however, the word "libertarian" has been highjacked by the right wing to refer to "anti-state" (that is anti-welfare), pro-business, extremely hierarchical political parties. Right wing Libertarianism (what Ayn Rand and others preached) is a form of crypto-fascism. If you're into the fascist thing, there are tons of NSBM bands to check out, most all of them awful.

There are tons of great left-libertarian (anarchist) metal bands. Not surprisingly, a lot are influenced by grindcore, hardcore, and crust. Check out Napalm Death, Iskra, Discharge, Nasum, Agathocles, Unholy Grave, Extreme Noise Terror, Acme, and many others.




Associating Libertarianism with left or right in terms of American politics is sketchy because it's a combination of social left and fiscal right realized in a non-interventionist "hands off" government in all regards except where it is necessary to protect an individual's life, liberty or property. Protecting those is the purpose of government according to John Locke, et al. I guess Socialists would disagree with property being a right but without the right to property a person is not truly free from oppression. Anarchism is an extension of this to the point where there is virtually no government at all. Ideologically it is somewhat similar, however without government at all peoples' individual rights can be violated without consequence, or all consequence will come from vigilantism but there is no clear law that has been violated. It's not practical because when there are no individual rights people aren't truly free from oppression. Though I assume Libertarian Socialists have some sort of improbable fantasy about a classless society where everyone contributes.

If you think any of this sounds like Fascism, I'll have type up another paragraph explaining Fascism, or you could Google Mussolini + "What is Fascism?" or Gentile + "Doctrine of Fascism." To summarize the main points I would take from these, Fascist political theory deems individual rights, individual wealth and economic systems (the main issues of dispute in Capitalist and Socialist theory) totally irrelevant. The goal is to strengthen the power of the state (in some cases an extension of "the race") above anything else. This is inconsistent with any other political theory mentioned... or otherwise. There is really nothing like Fascism.

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