Well, it's pretty easy to guess.

1. In Flames(haven't been a DM band in a LONG time, but they have DM records)
2. The Black Dahlia Murder
3. Cannibal Corpse

4. the rest.

While I can't verify the numbers, I can offer some reasoning of how this could be true.

Overkill continued playing thrash and thrashy groove metal after the decline of thrash in the US, while it still seemed to have quite a following in Germany/Europe and Central/South America. Both their style and the number of albums they made in the 90s could certainly give them a much higher overall sales figure. A lot of the more successful 80s legends really solidified their reputation in the 90s - while their classic albums were mostly made in the 80s, they took time to reach an audience. Quality doesn't correlate to sales - Divine Intervention, to this day, has outsold Show No Mercy. Commercial success is made by a label pushing a band's name as a brand, and it sells based on radio play and reputation. Sadly most music is sold as an impulse purchase anyway.

Take a look at what bands did after 1990-91:

Metallica and Megadeth mixed mainstream/alt radio rock with thrash and heavy metal in the 90s. They saw great success with it too, Metallica sold many copies of fewer albums.

Slayer had a longer gap from 90-94 between albums, and they shifted their style towards groove/Ozzfestcore, which gave them a wider audience which also heralded their reputation from their infinitely superior albums. This is the only time you'll hear me mention this, because aside from making specific points of reference such as this, I vehemently deny that Slayer made music after 1990.

Anthrax mixed in groove and even had appealed alongside NYHC and rapcore. I first saw an Anthrax CD in a Walgreens $5 bargain bin circa 1998 and can't think of a more fitting descriptor of post-1998 Anthrax.

So, aside from the big four, let's look at Overkill's competition on the second tier:

Exodus - Last album in 1992 before splitting. Vocalists influenced by musical chairs. Comparatively more successful in the 80s, but didn't survive the 90s to build their reputation, partly because they avoided mallcore and radio rock.

Testament - Always groovy, got more groovy, dabbled nearly in death metal. Marred by membership changes and their grooves being too aggressive and not dumbed-down, which also seems to have heavily attributed to their more recent success as we see a backlash against most groove stuff that would appeal to the Pantera crowd. Wrapped up their earlier era in 92, put out two much heavier albums in 94/97, then began a return to form in 99 as Ozzfest came into full swing. The "Ozzfest era" of 98-06 was crucial to groove bands, and Testament more or less evaded it.

Sepultura - From death/thrash to mainstream mallcore for the markets where playing live mattered, which built their commercial success. While they have seen success, I think they approached the end of an era in 1991, took a step to the reinvention in 1993, and then had to find a new audience in 1996. They found a lot of success too, but I think they sold less than Overkill due to not being able to move the same volume of records for the first half of the 90s. Admittedly I don't know/care a whole lot about Sepultura's commercialization.

Overkill - Likely the thrashiest throughout of all these bands that were mentioned. They never made the dive at the Pantera crowd nor mainstream rock like so many of their peers did, and I think this really solidified their reputation in the places where the 80s didn't burn out and roll into the grunge movement like the US - Central/South America and Germany/Europe. They also put out more albums than any of the other bands mentioned and gained exposure a bit later - this meant more records getting to a lot of smaller markets a bit later - the albums from 87/88/89 might not have hit all of the secondary markets immediately because I think Atlantic was a bigger label focused on making bands bigger in bigger markets. I think they might have also pressed a sizable number that never got the same rush as a new Metallica album, but sold more steadily over the years and didn't get dropped as dead stock like the others might (except in the US).

Their discography seems to be shaped well to slowly move sizable numbers over the years - Feel the Fire seems like it would always be in demand when Overkill's name was in the press. The next three (87/88/89) were at the right time and peak of the era. Horrorscope (91) was a strong effort for the die-hards holding on to a scene that was fading commercially - likely didn't get a look from people buying the Metallica album they heard on the radio though. They put out another SIX albums by 2000, and while people often think of that as a time when thrash was dead, Overkill was also likely the best band putting out new albums to appeal to all the crazy Hispanic and German thrashers.

Overall, I'd believe that Overkill's number added up a lot more than one might assume in comparison to other bands who have more name recognition these days but put out fewer albums. 17 LPs, two notable EPs, a couple lives, a couple compilations, and of course singles. DecayingYears pointed out that The Years of Decay sold 4m+ worldwide, and if that sold 4m I wouldn't discount that, including the pre-soundscan era, that Feel the Fire and the two after it sold nearly that many. You can guess the numbers between albums, and if TYOD sold 4m and IHB sold 1.3m, I'd assume that the much better album from 1991 sold a fair number too.

Seems like it could add up.

Wow, that was actually really well put. I never thought about it like that. I agree 90%, the only other 10% I have to say I disagree on is Slayer:

While I do agree they haven't put out anything fantastic since Seasons in the Abyss and that their 2 other 90's albums were mediocre with only a few good standouts, their last 3 have been VERY Good. God Hates Us All was an attempted return to form album, although it didn't match the intensity and raw thrashing power of their first 5 offerings, I must say it was a very good LP and one of the best ones anyone in the Big 4 had produced since the mid 90's at that point. Christ Illusion was a good follow up (satisfied with Lombardo returning) that pretty much picked up where GHUA left off, the ass kicking double bass that Lombardo was known for is clearly present here and brought out songs that shout "Old School Slayer" like Eyes of the Insane and Jihad (in my opinion). World Painted Blood didn't live up to its predecessors But was still a good listen with songs like the title track, Unit 731, and Not of This God. Those albums only suck in comparison to their classics, on their own, they're actually really good.

I personally don't believe that those albums exist, but I'll say this.

There are 371,000,000 people in South America. We could assume that one out of every 15 people in South America own one Overkill record, and that accounts for all of these claimed sales, even if we skip over the US and Europe. Based on every interaction I've ever had with a South American metalhead, I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that one out of every ~250 South Americans owns every Overkill album.

One in 15 people in South America owning an Overkill record? Really? I cannot believe that. I would like to, believe me, but I have a hard time believing any band is popular enough to pop up in that many households, let alone a band like Overkill, which while huge for a metal band, is still, a metal band not known that well outside of the community.

That was a joke about the South American metal scene.

I'd say 1 in 250 is more likely than 1 in 15 lmao, also it's possible that they've sold enough in other countries for some albums to be certified but it wasn't given to them. Like Helloween's Master of the Rings sold over 120,000 copies in Japan but was never Certified Gold.

http://www.metalunderground.com/news/de ... wsid=88303

And Testament's Practice What You Preach SOLD 450,000 copies in America in 1992 and The Ritual sold 485,000 as of 2007. U.S. Gold Certifications is based on SHIPMENTS and I think it's a safe bet to say I'm 100% certain that PWYP has shipped at least another 50,000 in the past 20 years and The Ritual another 15,000 in the past 6 years.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992 ... nd-members

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/testam ... and-again/

Sometimes an album actually surpass a sales milestone but the Record Companies (Atlantic) just don't care enough to give the bands their Silver/Gold/Platinum records. I think Overkill must have been certified in AT LEAST One country, but Atlantic never bothered to give it to them, like the Gold Records Testament has earned but haven't been given.

I asked Greg Christian about those albums a few years ago and both of them have shipped 500k but Atlantic Records just doesn't care about a band that hasn't been signed to the label for over a decade. If they didn't bother to do it for the big milestone in the US, I doubt they would bother for a milestone in another country. The labels certainly don't care about informing the public of how many they've shipped other than ceremonies to show off their success and further promote a band whose records they are selling by giving them a sales award. Gold records are trophies that the record company/RIAA awards to promote bands - they cost $200-300 to manufacture, they generally give one to each band member, I think producers usually get a copy for their trophy case too. The point of it is to hold a publicity event too, which costs money to hold, and labels aren't interested in putting money into a band who isn't going to recoup that cost to them.

That being said, I think the semi-mysterious nature of these state are that labels do keep track and journalists who get these stats usually know someone at the company who holds the rights to the album who they can call and ask for sales stats.

Wait Greg Christian? As in you know... The guy who plays bass for Testament?!

I've seen Testament more times than I can count and I hang around after shows. Greg is a really nice guy and spent quite a bit of time hanging out with the few fans who stuck around after the show.

I'm nerdy and shameless enough to ask about things like album sales certifications and confirming/filling in info on MA. I once fixed a band's lineup from my cell phone with the guidance of a band member while both of us were drunk at 3am.

Sounds pretty fun actually lmao I wish I could hang out with them. What'd he say worldwide sales are? Just curious.

I would've thought that between the years 1989 and 1996, Sepultura sold way more albums than OverKill, simply due to the fact I remember seeing Sepultura featured in practically EVERY music magazine, not to mention being on front covers, CONSTANTLY during those years. I don't even recall seeing OverKill on the front cover of a single magazine, and they were rarely featured inside either, certainly here in the UK. And Sepultura seemed to be touring non stop and getting included on some big tours, back then. I'm sure OverKill toured far, far less than Sepultura.

Well, let's be honest, Blitz is definitely better in technical terms terms than Dave. Dave really can't sing at all. At. All.

Oh I believe Sepultura outsold Overkill. Certainly here in America as well. Sepultura's had a couple Gold Records while Overkill's best seller is The Years of Decay which is probably sitting at about 185,000 right now. I have no issue believing Sepultura sold 20 million and Overkill around 16 million. I also think Testament might have reached around 20 million too.



That is true, Blitz is far more skilled than Mustaine is. But Dave was never really meant to be a singer in the first place. They couldn't find a singer after a while and Dave just wanted Megadeth to take off so he could get in the studio and compete with Metallica so he was like "Fuck it I'm singing". But his voice does have some good moments. It was actually pretty good in the 90's.

You know now that I think about it, I Hear Black selling 1.3 million is a bit more believable considering it is technically Overkill's most commercially successful album. Of all their releases under Atlantic Records, I think that album was probably the one the Record Label actually backed the most. But I don't believe it sold almost 3 times what Under the Influence sold, unless it sold 500,000 copies since the SoundScan era, in those first 3 1/2 years it was most likely a hotter sale than it was in later 1991 so it may have sold another 300,000 prior to 1991, I'd love to say 1 million in total but I that's a bit of a stretch, like saying it sold 300,000 in the first 3 years isn't already a stretch enough lmao.

Define "commercially successful".

Well it had their highest charting position on the Billboard 200 (At the time), I've read that Atlantic promoted it better than their first 5 releases, it's one of their top 6 best-sellers (in America at least), it was more radio friendly than their other stuff and I heard that Spiritual Void got a couple plays on a radio station or two back then.

Zod's analysis was cool but the numbers given in the first post just don't work.

According to that, Overkill has sold as many albums as Anthrax, Helloween and Exodus combined. That's just not something that's even remotely possible.

Take record sales with a grain of salt. All numbers (not just Overkill's) are notoriously unreliable and difficult to compile and compare. That goes for the entire music industry.

Zod: Your take on how Ozzfest influenced metal culture is fascinating. I would really like to see a thread on this very subject with more of your thoughts if you ever feel like it. I do believe it helped shape metal (for better or worse) during a decade or so.

Yeah, I'd like to know where Metal-rules.com got that number from, and I agree that was a really good detailed response.

The Spiritual Void video is actually known to have received very little airplay due to the stagnant metal scene it was released into. I did find this strange since I Hear Black charted so high. Overkill made a video for Long Time Dyin' four years later, and it was actually thought to be a "lost" video for a while, because nobody had a recording of it because it was like, never, ever played. It finally popped up on Youtube a year or so ago.

It's interesting to see how certain bands are huge in certain territories. Someone mentioned Helloween's Master of the Rings being a massive seller in Japan and, apparently, for a time in the 1980s they were outselling Maiden in Japan (no pun intended).

Yeah true, but at least it was shown on MTV at all. The only other Overkill videos to actually be played on MTV(R.I.P) are In Union We Stand, Hello From the Gutter, Elimination, and I think Horrorscope. It may have received very little airplay but it still received more commercial promotion than all of their other albums except Taking Over-Horrorscope. Also yeah! It's a shame Long Time Dyin didn't get any airplay, it was such a great song too! DEFINITELY one of their most underated tracks.

I'm curious on what Ironbound and The Electric Age has sold by now.

I can't believe that Helloween has only sold 5 million albums altogether. The two Keeper albums must have sold 5 million units in the 80's alone. They used to be one of the most mainstream metal bands before they went downhill with Pink Bubbles Go Ape. In 1987-88 the number of Keeper of the Seven Keys t-shirts in my school was staggering.

I've Helloween was pretty popular in the 80s as well. I agree a bit with you, for a band to release 27(!) singles and only sell 5 million is kind of shocking. Anthrax released 25 singles and sold 15 million. Surely Helloween has sold around Anthrax's mark. How are Helloween's individual album sales?

Does anybody know a website that gives chart positions for an album that includes every country? I'm curious on how bands like Overkill did on charts overseas.

My best guess is that it was a typo and that it was meant to be 2.5 million. Overkill is a second tier thrash metal band...I don't believe they've sold more albums than Anthrax or Slayer.

I'm also of the opinion that 25 million is probably a bit more than what they've sold in reality. I wouldn't be surprised if they were right on that 17-18 million border though, especially if you consider second-hand sales and whatnot. They have a lot of albums, they've also maintained, at least recently, a very good reputation compared to other older thrash bands. Perhaps the only other older thrash band that has been as consistent as them has been Testament. I don't really see people rushing out to buy new Slayer albums in the manner in which I've heard about people picking up the new Overkill stuff. There is a lot of momentum behind the band. The band was one of Megaforce's children as well, they were huge overseas, and are still headliners for festivals. This is going on a hunch. If I ever run into DD or Bobby, I'll ask them.

But then it would contradict the numbers given for individual sales. Even if you take away the worldwide sales numbers for TYOD, I Hear Black, Feel the Fire, Under the Influence, and the assumed ones for Horrorscope and Taking Over the sales would add up to about 2.7 million right there. Also regarding Slayer and Anthrax: that number of 15 million worldwide for Anthrax is about 4 or 5 years old so there's a high chance they sold over that right now, and Slayer has bee said to have shipped in the "High Twenty Millions" so even if 25 million was true (Which it isn't, based on if you look at my breakdown on the first page) they wouldn't have outsold Slayer and I think Anthrax might have cranked out over 20 million by now. Their popularity has really comeback since Worship Music and the Big 4 Tour happened.

He is right. 2.5 million is a no-way-in-hell number for Overkill. Their first album was '85. They were moderately big in the 80s and early 90s for thrash. Everything stagnated afterward but they were releasing an album every two years or so, and people still bought 'em. Their resurgence lately has surely helped, too. I can't believe we are still debating this. I still have my bets on somewhere around 18-20.

As much as they deserve it, its impossible that Overkill can actually match Slayer in record sales.

Oh they'll never match Slayer in sales terms. Talent wise it's neck and neck.



I'd say 15-17 million but it wouldn't be too far fetched for it to be around that, I doubt they sold 25 million though. Unless those numbers pass through Bobby Blitz or DD Verni's teeth I ain't buyin it lol. One thing that is a huge surprise to me is Overkill selling over 16 million but Exodus has only clocked in 5 million.

Someone should ask Blitz when they get a chance. That dude will divulge anything if you ask. I read in an interview Joe Comeau tried to sue him after he left the band (lol). Apparently he pulled similar shit on Waters and Annihilator after he didn't like the image they used of him on Waking The Fury.

no. morbid angel's covenant is said to be the best selling DM album of all times, so they should be in the list too I guess.

I agree completely. But also, i have to say they are much more consistent. Probably the most consistent of thrash metal, trully a blue collar band.

I think that Overkill, Testament and Exodus must be head to head when it comes down to record sales. Im just guessing here, but i think that Testament are the ones who sell most records. I think that after the big four, they are the most popular (american) thrash metal act. I mean, in lastfm, they actually surpass Anthrax when it comes to songs streaming: http://www.lastfm.es/tag/thrash%20metal Obiously isnt very accurate to rely on that, it was just a curious observation.

But i think that Anthrax surely must have more record sales than Overkill. I mean, they had their huge hit with Bring the Noise, some succesful albums, they appear in highly popular videogames (Guitar Hero, Tony Hawk, Grand Theft Auto, etc), VH1 (I always see Scott Ian and his billy goat beard there, even in pop documentals) and did the highly succesful big four tour, with a Blu Ray and shit. The Kill dont have stuff like that, sadly (at least they appeared on That Metal Show, finally a fairly underground act on Vh1).

The most popular Thrash band outside of the Big 4 I would say is Suicidal Tendencies. They had quite as few Gold records as well as a shiton of skater anthems and radio hits. But between Testament, Overkill, and Exodus, Testament EASILY sells the most (in the U.S). They sell about 2-3 times as much as Overkill and Overkill sells twice as much as Exodus. Here's a small example

Best selling albums of the Soundscan era:

Testament (The Ritual)- 485,000
Overkill (Horrorscope)- 120,000
Exodus (Fabulous Disaster)- 68,000

They're all pretty dominant over each other in sales. As for saying they're the most consistent? Yeah I'd agree with you on that. They've been putting out records every 2 or 3 years since 1985 and I might sound fanboyish here but Overkill really hasn't had a bad album, their "worst" is probably Bloodletting but that's actually a decent album. But Testament, despite a 9 year gap of nothing, is right up there too, all 10 of their albums have been absolute powerhouses of metal, their most recent one Dark Roots of Earth I believe is the best Metal album of the modern era. Exodus had a 10 year hiatus but still had 9 great records. Yes, I'm including Force of Habit, it wasn't that it sucked, people hated it because it was different, I thought it was a good solid album. Also all three of them will start becoming more popular soon as Thrash is making a bit of a comeback. Death Angel's new album reached #72 on the Billboard 200 and sold 5,400 copies in its debut week. That's twice as much as the last one and it's the first time they broke the Top 100 in decades.

Overkill never turned to groove? Overkill is probably the most "consistent"? What are you guys smoking? Look, it's fine if you enjoy nineties Overkill, but saying that they were still "pretty thrashy" is just downright wrong. I Hear Black, W.F.O., Necroshine and ReliXIV are all crappy groove metal records that are snorefests. From The Underground And Below and Killbox 13 are the only worthwhile nineties records to my ears.

I haven't heard The Killing Kind, Bloodletting or Immortalis, but considering all those were produced around the eras of Necroshine and ReliXIV doesn't exactly instill much confidence that those somehow move beyond the shit groove Overkill produced in the nineties and oughts.

Yeah uhm...Bloodletting and especially Immortalis are probably their two worst records. I will argue that WFO had plenty of speed in it though.

Never turned to groove? I disagree, look at (as you said) I Hear Black, The Killing Kind, From the Underground and Below, and Necroshine. Most consistent? I would agree, although 90's Overkill couldn't match their power and intensity of the 80's (with the exception of Horrorscope) the majority of their 90's efforts were still Good offerings. I disagree with Necroshine and ReliXIV being "Snorefests", they just lacked strong tracks with the exception of Necroshine, Revelation, Let us Prey, Blackline, Deadman, Within Your Eyes, and Old School. The others on those albums may be considered a bit weak but they were still good listens.

Also on another note, Killbox13 wasn't a 90's Overkill album lmao that was released back in 2003. The Killing Kind was made back in 1996 before Necroshine, it was an experimental album. You'll either like it or hate it, I personally liked it. Bloodletting is probably their worst record considering it has no strong songs whatsoever with the exception of Thunderhead, and Immortalis was back in 2007 after ReliXIV. That one Bobby Blitz took on a different type of vocals style but you can still tell it's him, I think it was one of his best vocal performances on tape in quite a while. Again I liked this album I'd recommend the tracks Devils in the Mist, Skull and Bones (featuring Randy Blythe of Lamb of God\,,/), Walk Through Fire, Head On, and Overkill V.

Please learn to read. My first sentence was questioning the validity of those statements by others.