I've been using Encyclopaedia Metallum for some time now having found a lot of demo bands and "obscure" I love today like Midian, Papsmear, Arachnid, Armoros, Poison (Ger), Morbid, and etc. With the new wave of thrash metal going on I've seen two groups on this site with one side supporting "retro" thrash, and another side opposing it. I've always wanted to review albums like some of the great reviewers of the site like autothrall and UltraBoris, but I also wanted to discuss the resurgence of thrash and other forms of metal. An argument I see a lot on this site is that thrash is one dimensional and has no room to expand, thus these new thrash bands are not doing anything new and are just carbon copies of Slayer/Exodus. Besides for gimmicks metal has not changed that much from the late eighties to the early nineties, with death and black metal peaking of creativity. Now lets say its true that "retro" thrash is just a carbon copy of the past, so what? If everything has already been done before in the various sub genres of metal, what is there to listen to?

Not everything has been done before. There are still bands producing fresh material. There are bands that take influences from the past without downright worshiping a past band and are able to assert their own identity through the material. A lot of thrash bands don't aim for their own identity but try to sound exactly like x band with maybe a little y band thrown in. And usually when they do they sound like the second rate songs that didn't make it into the recording studio.

I am a thrash fan that has heard much of the oldschool thrash scene and a fair bit of the new stuff. There are bands that are able to sound good without being a downright parody of what the genre was.

The big issue I've got with many retro thrash bands is the lame, lame, LAME production sound that many albums of their kind have nowadays. A lot of newer bands have songs that I consider to be good, but the just plain bad production quality keeps me from really enjoying them. The perfect example I have is Time Is Up by Havok. That's a ripping, thrashing, headbang-until-your-neck-breaks album, but imagine just how much more great it would have been if it had the production style of, say, Beneath the Remains or Slaughter in the Vatican. Instead, we've got an album of great songs bogged down by weak, thin, super plastic & processed production. Same goes for groups like Revocation and Lich King, although in their cases it's nowhere near as bad or distracting as it is with Havok. The thrash of the 80s was thick and meaty and it fit the music incredibly well. The thrash of today just doesn't have that same quality, and it's very much the fault of the production techniques prevalent in modern metal as a whole.

thrash has always been one of my favorate genres all around. With that said, one of the biggest issue I hear with a lot of the new stuff is, that sometimes it just tries too hard. They want to desperatly re-live and re-capture the magic of those years when Slayer, Possessed, Kreator, Destruction, and Exodus were at the cutting edge of the underground. And in the end, they come across merely as, some band that wants to relive those bands in their heyday. So you get bands that record albums that sound like a bunch of third rate Slayer, Possessed, Kreator, Destruction and Exodus riffs that weren't good enough to be used by the original bands. You get lyrics that sound as if they are trying to imitate early Exodus or Destruction lyrics (for example, "Thrash em all down! Satan Commands/kill every poser on sight/ DEATH BY SATAN HAMMER!!") In other words, a lot of the bands sound...fake. Contrived, plastic, an artificial imitation of what the old thrash bands once sounded like but without any real conviction or feeling; almost like they are trying to parody that style.

And all the other reasons people mention come into play; flat/sterile production, unimaginative riffing, etc. It is a style that is harder to get "right" than people realize. Even back in the day, there were plenty of half-assed sounding thrash bands that, for good reason, remain largely forgotten today. Anyone remember Anvil Bitch? Indestroy? Executioner (Seth Putnams pre-Anal Cunt thrash band)? Acid Reign? you weren't missing much. Too many modern "Retro" thrash bands seem awash in the same sort of mediocrity.

I don't overcomplicate it myself. I like thrash. Old thrash. New thrash. Some bands and records more than others. They can be as retro as the want to be, but I'll judge the material on whether I enjoy it.

I dunno, most retro thrash albums I've heard have a surfeit of "thickness" to the sound. It's all dense and oversaturated and in-your-face, which saps the energy and momentum out of the music. Thrash guitar tones are more about the jagged razor edge than crushing you under a wall of distortion.

Also retro thrash is badly in need of bands with actual melodies, competent singers, and USPM influences. Thrash wasn't just Slayer, Kreator, and Exodus, it was also Forbidden, Anthrax, Toxik, Heathen, Megadeth, etc.

I agree that modern production values kill thrash today. Getting nitty-gritty isn't as serious to me, there are a lot of good razor-sharp thrash tones just like there are a lot of highly distorted thrash tones. The big nono is just compression and triggers as far as I'm concerned. Writing is another issue though. Lots of these guys are capable of writing killer riffs, but they write thrash like pop songs these days. Many of us have gone on to appreciate extreme metal which means having a lot of dynamics. Slow parts, fast parts, riffs that don't repeat themselves, riffs that repeat themselves a lot. But retro thrash kinda takes all the stereotypes of thrash and blends them together, and for some reason one of those stereotypes is having a really lame structure. Almost every song today has a form like: ABA*mosh section/solo*AB or something like that. And it gets tiring pretty quick.

Agreed. Even fast riffs just don't have the frantic, spiralling out of control feel anymore. All the aggression and heaviness is so artificial. I'd rather listen to something like Beneath the Remains with an imperfect production, but Cavalera's monstrous right hand comes through nevertheless and those sawing riffs drill right into your cranium. Now that's fucking thrash

I know it's not considered retro thrash here, but I instantly thought of Leave No Cross Unturned by Darkthrone. That song is loaded to the brim with power thrash, from the vocals to the riffs to the drumming, even the production fits the song incredibly well.

That song kicked ass, modern thrash bands should take some ques from that song, I would love to hear some thrash bands influenced by Iced Earth's first 3 albums, but I have yet to hear that too.

Agreed with this.

There's also a sense in which Thrash is just a more limited genre than other kinds of metal. You can make various flavors of death or black metal out of thrash, but it doesn't really work the other way around. Thrash riffs have much more specific structures and patterns - it's just less flexible. I'm not saying it has been completely explored, but if you're trying to innovate as a thrash band you're working under stricter guidelines than you are in other kinds of metal.

That depends almost entirely on context. Even Megadeth's first 2 albums(the rest can be argued as not strictly thrash) are head and shoulders above the crowd in terms of innovation. Innovation doesn't involve putting another genre in, but just unique ways to approach songwriting which haven't really been explored much before. Aside from being more famous/accessible, there's another reason why bands prefer to rip off Kill Em All rather than Killing Is My Business.... and that's because it's just much more difficult to do that for the latter.

Not sure I'm with you here - Killing is my Business is equally speed metal as it is thrash - whereas Rust in Peace is about as thrash as it gets!

All the yes.

Also, it'd be nice to hear some Re-Thrash bands that don't sing about killing poseurs or drunk sharks or knocking 'em down to size. Most newer Thrash bands don't sounds like they're pissed off about anything to me, and fuck that.

If you can't enjoy Time Is Up because of the production, I feel sorry for you. I enjoy the shit out of that album. I guess when you learn too much about something, it spoils the magic.

I'm kind of in the camp of "it's been done before". I love me some older thrash, hell, thrash was one of the primary subgenres I got into when I first got into metal as a whole. I enjoyed the propellant rhythms, and that tight, rhythmic riffing style of palm mutes and sliding chords. But it is true, even with bands that come at things from an interesting or fresh angle (like say Voivod in their thrash days), the thrash "formula" is quite limited. You mess with it just a little bit and it becomes something else. I still think a good thrash riff is among the most satisfying found in metal, but nowadays they tend to be tucked within a song that isn't necessarily thrash to begin with, at least in my listening habits.

Who knows, I grew up on fast paced punk and hardcore, listening to stuff like that for years before I ever listened to metal, maybe I'm just sick of fast music?

I can respect his taste. I'm listening to a Havok song from Unnatural Selection on the Music Choice metal tv channel, and I don't like it much. They have a decent punch sound and the riffs are catchy but it isn't as enjoyable because the production is so modern and clean sounding. I have a very difficult time finding modern thrash albums I like cause the production is too modern. When Evile released their debut album I found it boring as shit cause of the production and it was being heralded as an awesome retro-thrash release and was one of the top thrash albums for a lot of people. I could not comprehend this at all.

Thrash needs to sound menacing with at least a slight grit in the guitar tone, and non clicky drums. A lot of bands that attempt an oldschool production just sound like they are trying too hard to be backwards and I can just feel the lack of conviction in the music or something. I can't really explain it though.

I also dislike the whole party thrash that a lot of people do. These are the bands that sing about killing posers, thrashing, fucking shit up, partying etc and usually have a bay area sound with over the top vocals that sound like drunk kids on speed. I don't like this sound at all. Here are some examples of what I like and dislike in the retro-thrash scene. There are countless retro-thrash bands choosing this style.

It annoys me when bands name themselves after some of the greatest albums of thrash or even after songs. For example there is Bonded by Blood, Eternal Devastation, Power from Hell, and Merciless Death. Some of these can work cause they sound good as a band name but Bonded by Blood? No it doesn't. I also realized it only bothers me when I see the band as one of those bands that are too much of a parody of the 80s stuff. Like Power from Hell doesn't bother me much even though they are a straight up early Bathory clone.

Antichrist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8IB6JPBTqc

Sure Antichrist sound like they are stuck in the 80s wearing their influences on their sleeves but this sounds like it fits alongside nicely with albums like Raging Steel and doesn't stick out as a sore thumb like a total parody.

Power from Hell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO2Drh9Y2Ts

Even though this is 100% Bathory worship from Bathory's first 2 albums I still enjoy them quite a bit. They don't give off that vibe of an annoying modern parody band like most of the other retro-bands do.

Crisix - UltraThrash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq8zQIP5sxY

This is an example of the party thrash although they are a little tighter. The lyrics are retarded as shit singing about how great thrash is, and the vocals are those over the top drunk hyperactive kids on speed style that bug me. While the music is punchy the guitars are too clean and plastic.

Vortex - Thrash Metal Holocaust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8th5LnfgxY

This band has a slightly gritty guitar tone which is good and the riffs are very speed metal oriented, but goddamn the vocals are an annoying and another example of the kind I said I dislike, though their is a slight snarl which helps but still not enough. While the riffs are very speed metal oriented and not bad, there is still an aura of a modern plastic production surrounding it that means I won't bother with this band.

I never said I didn't enjoy Time Is Up because of the production. The production on that album sucks, but the songs are great enough to where I can put that aside for the most part.

Skeletonwitch is one band in the thrash revivalist movement I find to be actually be pretty good, but that's due to their mix of thrash and black metal.

Same here with the production problem and the cliches.

Hexen is a new band I really enjoy. With their Being and Nothingness album being a real gem imo. Because they really sound like themselves. Maybe it's not 'pure' thrash but that's ok. Every thrashband in the 80's also was different. There are really few 'pure' thrash albums imo.
I also like Vektor.

Hexen - Being and Nothingness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQKLLPEPbj4

I've seen Gama Bomb live and while I find their albums (as most new thrash bands albums) a bit boring (same tempo throughout the whole album) their music works really well live I think.

I love Havok and their production - they are above the rest as they have great songs. Everything sticks right away. I hate all the juvenile "kill posers" shit too but even more is the varying "death thrash" or "black thrash" that bash away with no great riffs or lyrical hooks.

The humor is also a turn off. I have one Municipal Waste album. There is no reason to buy another.

But the main problem within a defined genre is personality. You will stand out based on natural charisma. Something 99.9% of all bands lack. Dave Mustaine's personality elevated Megadeth above average. He has presence on a record.

I've always thought that writing is the biggest thing that stops any new thrash bands from reaching the heights of the old guard. Bands like Exodus and Testament may have primarily been known for their faster tempos and intense performances, but they also had songs with variety and melodies that you can actually remember and sing along to. A few bands come close to the idea but even the ones I like such as Warbringer or Skeletonwitch aren't exactly hooky.

I'll also second the notion that there needs to be more genre experimentations. I've always liked the idea of power and speed metal influences coming into it but I would also love to see a thrash band that used some old school doom influence. Overkill can't be the only one that's done it so skillfully.

If the album you have isn't Waste Em All then there is a really good reason to buy another that totally eclipses everything else that band did after.

No thanks, I've had my boogie board crowd surf experience. All done. Thanks for the memories.

From what I've heard, Fueled By Fire was the band that started the revival scene. Listening to their material, I can see why. They sound like the entire revival scene in a nutshell.

Sounds like you're a guy that would enjoy Fog Of War. Pretty cool band.

Toxic Holocaust and Municipal Waste came before them along with the fact FtF has changed a lot, since their debut.

I didn't see a multiquote so I'll address each issue in one post.

Band Identity - While yes some bands sound exactly like a Slayer or Exodus clones there are bands out there, that have found their own niche. You cant tell me War Without End and Worlds Torn Asunder sound in any way similar. Besides if thrash has Exodus or Slayer clones death metal has/had Suffocation clones.

Production - Honestly I could really care less about product granted I'm biased because I'm twenty one, and I'm used to to modern production.

"Goofball Thrash" - While yes some retro band have dumb lyrics about beer, pizza, and etc there are some bands with hard hitting lyrics. You cant forget that even in thrash's heyday almost all the lyrics were about hail Satan, war, murder, and etc.

"Thrash is one dimensional" - I personally don't agree with this statement due to all the sub genres within thrash. Granted while I know a good bit of thrash, death thrash, and brutal thrash I'm still learning about the other forms of thrash. Also some people classify tech and prog thrash in just one form. Also I'll admit most modern bands consist of just thrash, but there are some modern bands who play the various forms.

Thrash - Exodus, Testament, Slayer, Overkill, and you guys know the rest
Brutal Thrash - Demolition Hammer, Solstice, Dark Angel (Darkness Descends era), Morbid Saint, Num Skull, and etc
Death Thrash - Ripping Corpse, Sadus (Swallowed in Black era), Possessed, Cancer, Revenant, and etc
Power Thrash - Apocrypha
Speed Thrash - early Razor and early thrash in general
Doom Thrash Dream Death
Black Thrash - Morbid
Technical Thrash - Toxik, Realm, Deathrow (Deception Ignored), Atrophy, Heathen, and etc
Progressive Thrash - Watchtower

I wouldn't say they started it, as it felt more like a collective movement but they were one of the bands at the forefront with one of the first albums coming out. I noticed the scene beginning to gain interest around 2005 and became full blown in 2008 or 2009.

Here are some of the releases that seemed to really contribute to it.

Gama Bomb - Survival of the Fastest (2005)
Feel the Fire - Spread the Fire (2006)
Bonded by Blood - Extinguish the Weak EP (2007) (The 2006 demo and their internet activity helped create quite a buzz)
Merciless Death - Evil in the Night (2006) (This band were less liked by other bands so was not as much a part of it)
Evile - All Hallows Eve EP (2004) (They really gained interest with the 2006 demo though)
Exodus - Tempo of the Damned (2004) (Not part of it but this album helped kickstart a growing interest in thrash again and influenced a lot of bands)
Hexen - 2004 and 2005 demos
Destruction - The Antichrist (2001) (Just a guess with this one)

Those are just for starters as there are quite a few more.

Myspace was used a lot back then and bands promoted the crap out of themselves on there. They would all friend each other and put promotion posts on all their pages, and would provide songs to hear on their page. With that, labels began to take notice and some bands got picked up by big labels, and it just expanded out from there.

The problem with most of the bands for me is that none of them do anything new or even sound original. They all are content with just wallowing in the mid 80's output of Exodus, Kreator, Overkill, etc. and make no attempt to push the envelope, or even develop their own style. National Suicide is the biggest offender of this in my mind. A band that sounds like Overkill and makes no attempt to do anything to sound like themselves, not like another band. While some bands may not be original, like Havok, they go over these old ideas in their own style and end up sounding like themselves. I listen to National Suicide when I want to hear extra Overkill stuff, but I listen to Havok because I want to listen to Havok.

I really enjoy Havok but listen to "The Clergy" from TiU, the first 30 seconds could EASILY be Overkill.

Honestly I'd rather listein to "retro" thrash than anything modern Slayer, Megadeth, Overkill, and etc put out.

You hipsters can stop complaining about digital production now. Many of you seem to forget that a lot of thrash shit from the eighties sounds like absolute garbage. Not every album can sound like a Ride The Lightning, Beneath The Remains, or Violent Restitution. It terms of "retro" thrash - people are really having this debate, still? If you're not into it, stop fucking listening to it and play something else. The new thrash "movement" has been around for like over a goddamn decade. If you haven't found the shit you're into and avoided the shit you hate, I really don't know what the hell you're doing. And if you're just joining the scene, welcome! We've been here for ten years, and so you should probably find a new horse to beat into a bloody, pulpy puddle.

Honestly as long as it doesn't sound like it was made in a cave I could care less about production.

A lot of retro-thrash bands take it in the opposite extreme; having really old-school sounding production. But a lot of times that doesn't work either, as you can tell they tried too hard to make it sound retro and ultimately just sounds muddy, flat, and forced.

Now you take that back.

Granted they aren't ruining their legacy like some bands, but I still prefer their first five albums and retro thrash to their modern stuff.

Oh of course. I personally could care less about the comeback albums from bands that released great thrash material in the 80s and early 90s. Very few of them are any good and none that I have heard can stand up next to their early stuff in terms of quality. THey usually play it safe and retain a lot of modern elements and in terms of my taste this is bad. I like only a handful of songs from the new Overkill albums, The Antichrist is good, and so is Tempo of the Damned but not much beyond that is better than average.

It is possible to have digital production without being sterile and boring. Endgame has a super-polished sound but there's a lot of dynamics in the playing, whereas anything by Warbringer or Evile certainly does not. Besides, this isn't a 'let's hate retro thrash' thread, it's a discussion thread in a forum which just so happens to have a lot of members who don't like it.

Well I like Retro Thrash. Sure, it ain't as good as classics, but that doesn't make it bad in my book.

Very true, and an often overlooked sentiment when it comes to the topic of current thrash bands. Mediocre bands do get a load of attention these days due to the Internet. Which brings me to my next point, using the word "thrash" like some sort of lame search tag; the whole Fueled By Fire "retro thrash" scene is more or less dead and gone - it's been replaced by a bunch of bands that are racking up massive numbers of views on YouTube (that are otherwise not related as a scene) because they have the word "thrash" in their titles, often along with a retarded gimmick such as Freddy Krueger masks, muppet videos etc. In short, new thrash metal sadly often includes elements that are included deliberately to make it "thrashy" (Tom Araya screams, flat production devoid of low end and so forth) that actually seemed to be either spontaneous or even accidental in the original wave of speed and thrash metal music.



Agreed to the fullest, I feel this isn't brought up often enough. This is also where the shameless plug comes in.