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Darkes7_
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:09 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Poland

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:17 am

Empyreal wrote:

I've written what I consider a very fair review for My Arms, Your Hearse explaining why I think they are not great, if you want to read that.

Ok, I'll take a look. But I was referring at what's going on in this thread, it's quite a nice example of what often goes on when people argue about Opeth.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 11421
Location: Tyrn Gorthad

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:04 am

Opeth are brilliantly progressive in two main ways:

1) When Mikael writes a riff that other people might deride as "incredibly dull" he says, "fuck the naysayers!" and uses it anyway. That kind of musical integrity doesn't come cheap and is deserving of our utmost respect.

2) Normal bands will end a song after a reasonable length of time, then move on to a new one. Opeth paste three songs together (usually two regular Opeth songs on the ends with an Agalloch song in the middle) into one progressive ubersong that's factually three times better than a regular song.

I try explaining this genius to the sheeple all the time, but they just don't get it.

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lord_ghengis
Still Standing After 38 Beers... hic

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
Posts: 5957
Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:20 am

Darkes7_ wrote:

The problem I see quite commonly among Opeth-haters (or close) and why, I guess, Opeth fans are so tired of this (I don't yet classify as one, I really love what I've heard this far, but don't know their discography well enough), is that you basically consider combining extreme metal and melancholic parts into long songs to be bad songwriting by definition. If you don't like long songs, and prefer to have either metal or calm music, and don't like Opeth for this reason - fair enough, they definitely don't mean to be the most accessible band on Earth. But complaining about how crappy composers they are and how they can't write songs without a single argument to back it up really sounds like this and nothing else. Personally, I am impressed by how well they handle the style they've chosen, and it's a really damn difficult and challenging one. If you don't like it, fine. But saying it's worthless without any good reason is just bashing and I don't wonder why some fans can be pissed off by this.

The problem with their 'compositions', is not that they're long or that they have both soft and heavy parts. The problem is that the way they join these alternate sections is terrible, there is no talent or genius in the way they do it. The styles cut in an out from one another with no care or flow. The songs have both soft and heavy parts, but the music doesn't really transition between the two. They are not 10 minute songs, they are 3 minute pieces of music taped together haphazardly. Look at band like Moonsorrow, they do 30 minute songs which still feel like songs. Opeth do not do this. This is why My Arms, Your Hearse to me is pretty damn good, as is the song Bleak, but otherwise actual songwriting quality is very, very rare.

Aside from the compositional side of things you've got the problem is dull riffs and whatnot, but thats not what we were discussing.

Also:

Quote:

they definitely don't mean to be the most accessible band on Earth

They are about the most accessible extreme metal-related band ever, don't kid yourself.

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Darkes7_
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:09 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Poland

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:09 pm

Starting from the end: they define almost everything that is not accessible. Long songs, putting atmosphere above catchiness and accessibility (especially the earlier albums) and the combination of extreme styles, which basically leads to "too heavy" for one group and "too boring" for the other.

I haven't had any problems with any heavy/soft or the other way around transitions in Opeth songs this far. They are always there for a good reason, and always at the right moment, so the previous section has enough space to extend and be memorable, but also doesn't drag. I don't see the point here at all.

Dull riffs? Where? Ghost Reveries alone has enough catchy and really creative riffs to make three "standard" metal albums. The opening riff of Ghost of Perdition, for a start.

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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10812
Location: Spahn Ranch

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:47 pm

Contrasting very calm parts and very aggressive parts certainly isn't the definition of unaccessible, that's basically what every grunge band and every nu-metal band does.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35277
Location: Where the dead rule the night

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:18 pm

Darkes7_ wrote:

Dull riffs? Where? Ghost Reveries alone has enough catchy and really creative riffs to make three "standard" metal albums. The opening riff of Ghost of Perdition, for a start.

On almost every song. If you think their riffs are that special I recommend you listen to more traditional metal, which is more thoroughly riff based. Even if I did like Opeth, it wouldn't be for the riffs.

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Darkes7_
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:09 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Poland

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:39 pm

The last one was quite hilarious, since 90% of metal I listen to definitely counts as traditional in every way and is riff-based...

I'll drop the rest at this point, I've said all I had to say, I don't see this going anywhere.

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caspian
Old Man Yells at Car Park

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:55 pm

droneriot wrote:

Contrasting very calm parts and very aggressive parts certainly isn't the definition of unaccessible, that's basically what every grunge band and every nu-metal band does.

Well, I don't know about you, but I consider Fade to Black and Smells the Teen Spirit to be the epitome of inaccessibility.

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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
Posts: 7732
Location: Pennsylvania

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:39 am

caspian wrote:

droneriot wrote:

Contrasting very calm parts and very aggressive parts certainly isn't the definition of unaccessible, that's basically what every grunge band and every nu-metal band does.

Well, I don't know about you, but I consider Fade to Black and Smells the Teen Spirit to be the epitome of inaccessibility.

I know, right? Those songs offer nothing to the casual listener!

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planiol
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:39 pm
Posts: 331
Location: United States of America

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:11 am

iamntbatman wrote:

2) Normal bands will end a song after a reasonable length of time, then move on to a new one. Opeth paste three songs together (usually two regular Opeth songs on the ends with an Agalloch song in the middle) into one progressive ubersong that's factually three times better than a regular song.

This is why I think "Black Rose Immortal" is the best Opeth song - because it's the longest one. Therefore, it has the most "cool parts."

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jeanshack
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 257
Location: United States

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:46 pm

Zelkiiro wrote:

caspian wrote:

droneriot wrote:

Contrasting very calm parts and very aggressive parts certainly isn't the definition of unaccessible, that's basically what every grunge band and every nu-metal band does.

Well, I don't know about you, but I consider Fade to Black and Smells the Teen Spirit to be the epitome of inaccessibility.

I know, right? Those songs offer nothing to the casual listener!

On contrary I actually think Fade To Black & Smells Like Tee Spirit epitomizes accessibility

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jeanshack
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 257
Location: United States

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:15 pm

droneriot wrote:

Maybe I'll review them some day, but not today. For today, what I can tell you is that it isn't due to long song lengths, contrasting mellow melancholic parts with heavier, death/doom-y parts, or even Mikael Åkerfeldt's vocal performance, because all three of those things can be found on "Brave Murder Day", and that's a good album.

This is an interesting point but Brave Murder Day has very less riffs and hence hardly any contrast between the heavy and lighter parts, the production and the sound of the record is emphasizing the instruments than the vocals and there are no key boards, can all this differences explain the dislike for Opeth ?

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Pfuntner
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:33 pm
Posts: 1058
Location: United States of America

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:24 pm

jeanshack wrote:

Zelkiiro wrote:

caspian wrote:

droneriot wrote:

Contrasting very calm parts and very aggressive parts certainly isn't the definition of unaccessible, that's basically what every grunge band and every nu-metal band does.

Well, I don't know about you, but I consider Fade to Black and Smells the Teen Spirit to be the epitome of inaccessibility.

I know, right? Those songs offer nothing to the casual listener!

On contrary I actually think Fade To Black & Smells Like Tee Spirit epitomizes accessibility

They were being sarcastic.

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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10812
Location: Spahn Ranch

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:21 am

jeanshack wrote:

Your post makes very less sense to me.

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 11852
Location: In the Arena

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:24 am

He's asking you if the reasons you like BMD and not Opeth are
1. Less contrast between heavy parts and light parts
2. The production emphasizes the instruments more than the vocals
3. No keyboards

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jeanshack
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 257
Location: United States

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:19 am

Pfuntner wrote:

jeanshack wrote:

Zelkiiro wrote:

caspian wrote:

droneriot wrote:

Contrasting very calm parts and very aggressive parts certainly isn't the definition of unaccessible, that's basically what every grunge band and every nu-metal band does.

Well, I don't know about you, but I consider Fade to Black and Smells the Teen Spirit to be the epitome of inaccessibility.

I know, right? Those songs offer nothing to the casual listener!

On contrary I actually think Fade To Black & Smells Like Tee Spirit epitomizes accessibility

They were being sarcastic.

Heck!

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jeanshack
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 257
Location: United States

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:30 am

droneriot wrote:

jeanshack wrote:

Your post makes very less sense to me.

Thanks to failsafeman, If you still did not understand, i just wrote how BMD differs from Opeth sound while you wrote their similarities, so does the differences explain the reasons for your dislike ?

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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10812
Location: Spahn Ranch

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:58 am

No, the difference is much more elemental:

Brave Murder Day: Good riffs.
Opeth: No good riffs.

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zeingard
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:49 pm
Posts: 659

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:31 pm

droneriot wrote:

No, the difference is much more elemental:

Brave Murder Day: Good riffs.
Opeth: No good riffs.

I'm sorry Drone but I believe you meant to say;

Brave Murder Day/Opeth: No good riffs, at all.

Seriously, fuck Katatonia.

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Darkes7_
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:09 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Poland

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:52 pm

Always love to see some mature argumentation.

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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10812
Location: Spahn Ranch

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:06 pm

zeingard wrote:

I'm sorry Drone but I believe you meant to say;

Brave Murder Day/Opeth: No good riffs, at all.

Nope, I didn't. Another elemental difference:

I have taste.
You're into Electric Wizard.

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 11852
Location: In the Arena

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:10 pm

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MorbidBlood wrote:

So the winner is Destruction and Infernal Overkill is the motherfucking skullcrushing poserkilling satan-worshiping 666 FUCK YOU greatest german thrash record.

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jeanshack
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 257
Location: United States

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:15 pm

droneriot wrote:

No, the difference is much more elemental:

Brave Murder Day: Good riffs.
Opeth: No good riffs.

Elementary Correction
Brave Murder Day : Hardly any riffs

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Lord_Jotun
Veteran

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
Posts: 2747
Location: Italy

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:33 am

lord_ghengis wrote:

Look at band like Moonsorrow, they do 30 minute songs which still feel like songs. Opeth do not do this.

That's entirely debatable.
For the record, I enjoy both bands greatly.

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lord_ghengis
Still Standing After 38 Beers... hic

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
Posts: 5957
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:23 pm

Lord_Jotun wrote:

lord_ghengis wrote:

Look at band like Moonsorrow, they do 30 minute songs which still feel like songs. Opeth do not do this.

That's entirely debatable.
For the record, I enjoy both bands greatly.

True, it is subjective, but when people make the argument on Opeth being songwriters, what we're talking about is not long songs or a combination of heavy and soft, it is how we perceive the transitions between the two. My main point in that argument was that what Opeth does isn't inherently terrible (As I said, I am quite a large fan of My Arms Your Hearse [and Orchid, but since that album is really, really badly composed it hurts my argument haha]) it's simply their excution which sucks.

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Lord_Jotun
Veteran

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
Posts: 2747
Location: Italy

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:49 am

I hear that quite often; strangely, I've never perceived Opeth's transitions as particularly jarring or disjointed. Then again, I listen to quite a bot of bands, both in metal and outside, whose songs often include loads of different sections (see Abigor and Die Apokalyptischen Reiter) and I usually have no problem with that.

Of course, anyone's opinion is more than welcome as long as it's backed by intelligent argumentation - something that unfortunately the vast majority of both drooling fanbois and raging haters are well known to lack, Opeth discussions being one of the prime examples in this respect.

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Ice_As_Steel
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:51 am
Posts: 659

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:53 am

Yeah, neither people who really like or really dislike things never have any thought behind their views. Only piddling, middle of the road opinions that don't betray any allegiance to one particular view point are true... Have you considered a career in politics?

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Lord_Jotun
Veteran

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
Posts: 2747
Location: Italy

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:08 am

No, because I wasn't talking about opinions, but the way they are expressed. And the more extreme the judgements are, the more reasoning and in-depth analysis I expect to be provided to back them up.
I have never said that only the grey area is legitimate.

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toasty
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:15 pm
Posts: 8

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:51 am

Geshy wrote:

Opeth's Blackwater Park got a 6%, or 3% or something really low. I was repulsed because that album changed my life. The reviewer said the riffs in Leper Affinity were "lifeless", but I always heard every other riff as being lifeless in comparison after I heard that song. I guess it shows music is truly subjective opinion and strictly based on how it connects with an individual.

Blackwater park got a 6%? That's fucked up.

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The_Poltergeist
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:11 am
Posts: 138
Location: Zeeland

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:25 am

toasty wrote:

Geshy wrote:

Blackwater park got a 6%? That's fucked up.

No, it got 3%. Still life got 6%.

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SHUTUPANDDIE
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:49 pm
Posts: 794
Location: United States of America

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:05 am

shiduba wrote:

I saw that thread of highest rated albums, and it thought it would be fun to see which are the lowest rated instead. 10 or more reviews would be nice.

Here are some of my suggestions, can you find worse?

Cryptopsy: The Unspoken King (13%, 22 reviews)
Waking the Cadaver: Perverse Recollections of a Necromangler (10%, 13 reviews)

yeah those albums really suck. Are there any worse?

I've never, ever seen a positive review for The Unspoken Queef.

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SHUTUPANDDIE
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:49 pm
Posts: 794
Location: United States of America

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:06 am

The_Poltergeist wrote:

toasty wrote:

Geshy wrote:

Blackwater park got a 6%? That's fucked up.

No, it got 3%. Still life got 6%.

Woah....what. the. fuck.

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wakemeup36
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:15 am
Posts: 246
Location: Saudi Arabia

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:48 am

SHUTUPANDDIE wrote:

shiduba wrote:

I've never, ever seen a positive review for The Unspoken Queef.

I saw one. On the Metal Observer, if I'm correct. Those things are rare creatures indeed.

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RapeTheDead
Stoned Jesus

Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 846
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:27 am

wakemeup36 wrote:

I saw one. On the Metal Observer, if I'm correct. Those things are rare creatures indeed.

Yes, you are indeed correct. It doesn't exactly give the album glowing praise (he gave it a 6.5/10) But it's not anywhere near as negative as the reviews for that album usually are.

Here's the review for anybody who's interested (or just too lazy to find it themselves): http://www.metal-observer.com/articles. ... 1&id=14789

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SharpAndSlender
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:49 am
Posts: 2260
Location: Bradenton, Florida

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:23 pm

I haven't heard the whole thing but from what I've heard of it I'd give it somewhere in the 65-75 range. It's better than Once Was Not but hardly a classic. Then again I've always thought that The Unspoken King basically sounds like Whisper Supremacy-era shit anyway.

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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 10812
Location: Spahn Ranch

Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:10 pm

Not sure if it's quite as bad as Whisper Supremacy, but it's definitely shit.

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Lord_Jotun
Veteran

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
Posts: 2747
Location: Italy

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:18 am

Chronicles of Chaos rated it 8,5.
And of course a couple of Italian metal portals I still check from time to time for their surprisingly reliable and detailed news sections gave their cocksucking best as expected (7 and 8, respectively). Yuck.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35277
Location: Where the dead rule the night

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:02 am

Those Italians...first they inflict their power metal on us and now they're supporting Cryptopsy's last album. What have we come to when we accept this?

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Lord_Jotun
Veteran

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
Posts: 2747
Location: Italy

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:48 am

Good question. I love this country but can't stand the majority of its population, and the metal habitat is definitely no exception.
Reviews that are obviously built to fellate any major label bomb, however, are frighteningly common all over the place. I remember when In Flames crapped out Reroute To Remain a lot of specialized press kept hailing it as the best thing since Sweden came to exist in the midst of the vomit tsunami that ensued among fans.
Then a couple of years later STYE came along and... it was nearly the same all over again. No hope. No hope.

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lord_ghengis
Still Standing After 38 Beers... hic

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
Posts: 5957
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:24 pm

Yeah, but Forgotten Tomb earns them a free pass to be as retarded as they like about everything else.

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