Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
nasierszyca
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:38 pm
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:35 am 
 

I found something like this in book 'Chord Scale Theory & Jazz Harmony' - B. Nettles, Richard Graf

On page 129 we have also modal interchange with examples for each mode
(lydian interchange,mixolydian etc etc).

I need something more about these topics.
1- Polimodality
2 - not ordinary modal interchange but modal interchange for each modes(like in book).

Materials for exercises, songs for analysis etc :)

Top
 Profile  
Element_man
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:37 am
Posts: 848
Location: Vancouver, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:23 pm 
 

You're getting into some more advanced theory topics which is pretty awesome but this might not be the right forum for these kinds of questions. I would suggest checking out sevenstring.org as they have a few theory "gurus" there. Also, check out Rick Beato's YouTube channel and Adam Neeley as well.

Wish I could help on this topic but I haven't read the book you mentioned. My knowledge on modal borrowing/interchange is probably similar to yours and I'm somewhat out of practice there.

For what it's worth, artists like Symphony X and Coroner come to mind as metal bands that incorporate modal interchange into their tunes as far as my ears can tell. Try the chorus from Symphony X's "Egypt". I haven't actually sat down and analysed that song however so it could just be doing a key modulation as opposed to model interchange. They definitely like to step "outside" the box on a harmonic level on occasion so I feel like you could mine a lot of material from their 90's and early 00's albums.

You're getting me inspired to transcribe some harder stuff now. :)
_________________
Superstrat Abuser.
Gatekeeper
Heavy Metal. No new shit.

Top
 Profile  
nasierszyca
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:38 pm
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:03 am 
 

sevenstring.org... for me it is impossible to register on this site because when I fill out a form
I am blocked as spam/automatic application etc


Quote:
You're getting me inspired to transcribe some harder stuff now.


:D good,try with this Michael Brecker's and Mike Mainieri's solos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HQa5so4Fow

in case of trouble, use Transcribe App
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcwwJtbKYw0

My computer is too weak and I can not install this program.

PS. Or Nocturnus "Alter Reality" riffs and solos :) do you accept the challenge? :D

Top
 Profile  
rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 11011
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:12 pm 
 

Modal interchange is super simple. You're borrowing chords from parallel modes. Modes are considered parallel when they share the same tonic, or root note. Such as C Major and C minor. This image will give you a representation on the different diatonic chords for each mode. For example, say you're in C Major (which is Ionian mode), you can swap your II-7 chord for the II-7 (b5) in C minor (Aeolian). This opens up your harmonic possibilities by a *huge* amount. You can swap any chord using this method and make musical sense. Hope it helps:

Image
_________________
Hexenkraft - diabolical cyberpunk darksynth

Top
 Profile  
nasierszyca
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:38 pm
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:45 pm 
 

Quote:
Modal interchange is super simple.

Yes but it's about specific modal interchange ( to emphasize character/mood of the chosen mode).

Image

Image

Image



By the way, how to arrange chords progression in ionian, dorian, phrygian mood etc?


Last edited by nasierszyca on Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 11011
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:47 pm 
 

You haven't provided enough information in your original post to solve *specific* modal interchanges, you simply asked for something more on the topic. If you can be more precise with your question, I can help you.
_________________
Hexenkraft - diabolical cyberpunk darksynth

Top
 Profile  
nasierszyca
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:38 pm
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:42 am 
 

Could You explain how can I create chord progression
which has to rely on emphasize character/mood of chosen scale?

How it looks chords progression (in the key of C major)
with ionian mood and how it looks chords progression with phrygian mood
(in the key of C major/e minor)??

Each scale has its own characteristic chord progression?
There is such a thing as "phrygian progression" etc?


I dont understand how create ionian progression,dorian progression ,phrygian progression etc

Scale have own mood because of characteristic notes but how about progression.

Top
 Profile  
rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 11011
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:03 pm 
 

Your question makes no sense to me, I'm sorry. Maybe it's a language barrier or something, but I am having trouble understanding what exactly you're asking. If you are in the key of C Major, you're already in Ionian mode. So any chord progressions that are diatonic to C Major will be Ionian by default. If you're using many chords from an entirely different mode, you will effectively no longer be in your C Major key. If you want to emphasize that you're using modal interchange, it's best to end your chord progression on a chord that is unique to the mode you are borrowing it from, and then resolve back to the tonic or I chord.

Are you just asking how to make natural chord progressions using the different modes? Are you familiar with the concept of leading tones?
_________________
Hexenkraft - diabolical cyberpunk darksynth

Top
 Profile  
Element_man
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:37 am
Posts: 848
Location: Vancouver, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:05 pm 
 

I think I get what you're asking. Frank Gambale talks about this a bit in his Modes: No More Mystery video. The example that he uses is a IVmaj-Vmaj progression being distinctly Ionian. If you have two major chords separated by a whole step in any other degrees of the scale, then you're in a different mode. Only Ionian has them as the IV and V chords.

So for example, if you were playing in Phyrgian and decided to toss in a IVmaj-Vmaj movement, you'd be referencing a distinctly Ionian movement.

Are we on the same page so far?

It seems to me that rexxz has a point--the question you're asking seems quite broad and there isn't really a fast, easy answer for this. Best thing to do would be to study the chart he/she provided above and find some chord movements you like from each mode and try splicing them into other modes to see how the different cadence effects the mood. I feel that the strongest qualities (ie, the most tension) of each mode are found in the half-steps and the leading tones, like rexxz also mentioned.
_________________
Superstrat Abuser.
Gatekeeper
Heavy Metal. No new shit.

Top
 Profile  
Hare Kristmas
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:25 pm
Posts: 8
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:48 pm 
 

If I'm understanding the question correctly (and I might not be) then once you've figured out the chord progression that "fits" a Dorian scale--i.e. so you've got a major chord for the tonic, a minor chord for the 2nd, etc.--then to translate it into any other mode you simply start with the chord that maps to the position of the root note of that mode relative to Dorian.

So if you're in Aeolian you'd start with a minor chord, then a diminished chord for the 2nd (which would be the root note if you started in Locrian), then a major chord for the 3rd (the root for Dorian), etc.

So you've only gotta figure it out once. But that seems too easy so maybe I don't understand the question.

Top
 Profile  
nasierszyca
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:38 pm
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:34 am 
 

Maybe I will try to explain differently :)
Let's take this progressions:

Cmaj7 | Fmaj7 | G7 | - what mood we have here?
This is ionian progression,lyidian or mixolydian?
Which mood(of which mode/scale) is emphasized in this progression?

Top
 Profile  
Element_man
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:37 am
Posts: 848
Location: Vancouver, Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:12 pm 
 

I read this as C Ionian because we're starting with "C" and the G7 preps up for a cadence going back to Cmaj7.

To hear this as F lydian I'd want to start on the Fmaj7 chord and maybe even superimpose an F note in the bass of one or two of the other chords. Same idea for G-mixo.

In a case where the chords are all diatonic to each other, whatever note you establish as a tonal center would determine what mode you'd expect to hear.
_________________
Superstrat Abuser.
Gatekeeper
Heavy Metal. No new shit.

Top
 Profile  
nasierszyca
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:38 pm
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:24 pm 
 

I'm afraid it is not that simple :)
What if play like this Cmaj7 | Fmaj7 | C7 |
Now it is lydian progression?

C7 is dominant for Fmaj7 ,but chord C7 contains non-diatonic note :/

Top
 Profile  
Element_man
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:37 am
Posts: 848
Location: Vancouver, Canada
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:46 pm 
 

nasierszyca wrote:
I'm afraid it is not that simple :)
What if play like this Cmaj7 | Fmaj7 | C7 |
Now it is lydian progression?

C7 is dominant for Fmaj7 ,but chord C7 contains non-diatonic note :/

Cmaj7 | Fmaj7 | G7 is simple. Now you've changed the question.

As far as I can tell, this progression only works as a Lydian function if you consider the relationship of Fmaj7 to Cmaj7. So if you want this to sound Lydian, you'd probably want to make F your tonal center. The C7 would be borrowing from the F Ionian mode, so you'd have to work around that. Whether or not it sounds Lydian will depend on how you structure everything else around these chords... the melody, the bass notes, the rhythm of the chord changes... without that extra context, my first instinct is to read this as a C Ionian progression that borrows from C-Mixolydian. I'd probaby try playing C Major Blues licks and slipping into C Mixo/Minor Blues as needed if I were asked to try soloing over it.

As an aside, you could emphasize Lydian sounds on a melodic level by playing C Lydian - F Lydian - G Lydian Dominant (b7) melodies over those chords. You're not diatonic, but you've basically fucked yourself over from that by using non-diatonic keys so you might as well embrace the colour a little bit.
_________________
Superstrat Abuser.
Gatekeeper
Heavy Metal. No new shit.

Top
 Profile  
nasierszyca
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:38 pm
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:22 am 
 

This simple topic is such difficult issue :)

We have seven diatonic chords within one key.
Only one diatonic dominant V which determines tonal center I.

Other chords ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii how to determine each of them as a tonal center
they have only non-diatonic dominants.

In the key of C we have:
G7|Cmaj -diatonic

A7|Dm
B7|Em
C7|Fmaj
D7|G
E7|Am - (also diatonic but in harmonic minor)
F#7| B dim.

What's next?

A7 to Dm is dorian move,or C#7 to Dm is more "dorianish"...or *Eb7 to Dm?

* triton substitution for non-diatonic A7 chord,in the key of C.



PS. Scales, each of them is a sequence of appropriate intervals, one after the other.
What we do when we want to hear ionian scale/mode/mood?
We play W W H W W W H ascending

BUT

when we play the same notes descending what we play?
H W W W H W W and this is NOT ionian sequence :)
it is PHRYGIAN, right?


So,which scale we should play up and down to stay in ionian mood/mode?
ionian - ascending
dorian - descending

Unfortunately, staying with the root note we will change the key...do you have any thoughts about this???

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

 
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group