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MutantClannfear
Veteran

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 2910
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:24 pm 
 

I think this idea might be helpful to integrate. The site currently requires sources for reports submitted by users, but for editors who can change the page by themselves, no source is required. Still, we all make mistakes, and lest two contributors get caught in an edit war, it can be helpful to have a source on the record so that facts can be checked even if there's no report on the topic.

The way I'm envisioning this is, when you edit an existing page, there can be a textbox at the bottom labeled "Source" where you can paste whatever links you're basing your edit on. Then you can go to the "view update history" page and when you expand individual edits, you can see the source cited for that edit (if there was one). I don't think it'd be too coding-intensive, and Wikipedia already incorporates something like this so there's a precedent for it.

Just a thought! :)
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Halloween
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:23 am
Posts: 672
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:43 pm 
 

100% this.

I can't remember the number of times I wanted to know the source for some of the stuff on here.

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Midnight Rider
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:07 pm
Posts: 138
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:51 am 
 

This will save a lot of time for hard-working contributors.

Amazing idea.

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Krister Jensen
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:48 am
Posts: 119
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:00 am 
 

I was aso thinking that it might be good for the site to require the source for adding a release as well.

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EpicDismemberment
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:24 am
Posts: 183
Location: Siam
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:19 am 
 

What about oral source? Information that spread by word of mouth.
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Antioch
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:08 am
Posts: 1061
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:33 am 
 

EpicDismemberment wrote:
What about oral source? Information that spread by word of mouth.

That shouldn't detract from the goodness of the idea. Some things will always be done the old way. If one finds a valid, accessible source later on, he/she can still add it to the edit in question.

Personally, I tend to file a report with my source and close it instantly, in an attempt to keep things well-documented:
http://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/591819
But that's nothing compared to what Mutant is suggesting.
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EpicDismemberment
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:24 am
Posts: 183
Location: Siam
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:27 am 
 

Yeah, can't deny that it is a really good idea.
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Emptiness Cycle
Whirlwind of Fire

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:07 am
Posts: 393
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:21 pm 
 

I really like this idea.

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tahu157
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 pm
Posts: 248
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:40 pm 
 

It's a great idea but I wonder if we'd just be inundated with the "I'm in the band so take my word for it" sort of sources.

Would a source be required or just recommended?

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Storm of the Light's Bane
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:16 pm
Posts: 372
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:57 pm 
 

100% support this idea.
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MutantClannfear
Veteran

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 2910
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:39 pm 
 

tahu157 wrote:
It's a great idea but I wonder if we'd just be inundated with the "I'm in the band so take my word for it" sort of sources.

Would a source be required or just recommended?

I say it shouldn't be required. What do you list as a source for fixing typos in the lyrics?

Also, I don't think that many band members contribute enough to the site to autonomously edit pages; we can probably assume that those who do have been around long enough that they know the rules of the site and won't whitewash the info for their own purposes.

As for sources that come down to "I'm in the band", well, that's still more info than we have right now. If somebody leaves something like that as a source, then at least you can reach out to them with follow-up questions.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 11843
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:54 pm 
 

It's a good idea in principle, but adds a new layer of maintenance: maintaining the validity of sources. Links expire and turn to 404 all the time. What then? Do we keep those dead links around to show that at some point, this edit was indeed sourced (but we have no way to prove it was a valid or reliable source), or do we remove it, or try to find a webarchive version of it that may or may not exist?

It would also be complicated for edits that span multiple fields and could require multiple sources.

Basically, while the idea seems sound, the logistics are kind of a pain in the ass to integrate... it's not trivial work.
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MutantClannfear
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:52 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
It's a good idea in principle, but adds a new layer of maintenance: maintaining the validity of sources. Links expire and turn to 404 all the time. What then? Do we keep those dead links around to show that at some point, this edit was indeed sourced (but we have no way to prove it was a valid or reliable source), or do we remove it, or try to find a webarchive version of it that may or may not exist?

It would also be complicated for edits that span multiple fields and could require multiple sources.

Basically, while the idea seems sound, the logistics are kind of a pain in the ass to integrate... it's not trivial work.

I don't think the sources themselves would need to be maintained for validity any more than the edits they're based on. Think about the way a report works on this site: the idea is that a user provides a source, a trusted editor examines the source for validity, and based on that they change the data accordingly. Even if the source 404s in the future, it was still there at some point and a value judgment was cast (and the report is archived so that it can be checked in the future regardless of whether the source remains). With this system I'm proposing, if the user can edit existing data, it's presumed that the site deems them trustworthy enough that they can cast a value judgment on their own source - that's kind of what having autonomous editing power entails in the first place.

I didn't really envision this as each edit history page having a catalog of sources to peruse through and maintain, more like just a source attached to each individual edit based on what was known by the contributor at the time. And even if some of the links have 404 errors over time, they can't possibly all go dead. It seems like a lot of potential gain in information transparency with little risk.
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Snow Listener
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:13 am
Posts: 147
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 1:44 am 
 

I've been thinking about this for a long time. My biggest grudge about MA after 2013 (when the site started to accept digital-only releases) is the flooding of one-track or two-track "singles", often <5min, with no reliable sources to verify their validity. These singles often appear on Bandcamp, SoundCloud, Youtube, etc as promo (for the band, and/or for the upcoming album), and should by no means be counted as separate releases. Do a search of albums without covers, or singles, you'll easily find a ton of such invalid junks. I once tried to report them one by one, and was often frustrated by the ordeal to prove that they do not exist (a band may indeed release a two-track single on CDR, in which case it is valid).

We should really implement this rule, at least for adding a new release. Save much pain for checking whether a release is indeed valid or not.

For example, Flesh Incineration > Vote No For Your Rights The submitter does say the "single" comes from SoundCloud, 1:10 in length. And this one is just a youtube video. Seriously, such singles should be nuked immediately.

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MutantClannfear
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:48 pm 
 

Any updates on this?
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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
Posts: 8653
Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 6:27 pm 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
tahu157 wrote:
It's a great idea but I wonder if we'd just be inundated with the "I'm in the band so take my word for it" sort of sources.

Would a source be required or just recommended?

I say it shouldn't be required. What do you list as a source for fixing typos in the lyrics?

Also, I don't think that many band members contribute enough to the site to autonomously edit pages; we can probably assume that those who do have been around long enough that they know the rules of the site and won't whitewash the info for their own purposes.

As for sources that come down to "I'm in the band", well, that's still more info than we have right now. If somebody leaves something like that as a source, then at least you can reach out to them with follow-up questions.


If it is going to be optional, then people will simply leave it blank, especially when making erroneous and/or malicious edits. The vast majority of the userbase either doesn't care or isn't acclimated to the minutiae of site protocol.

Quote:
Also, I don't think that many band members contribute enough to the site to autonomously edit pages; we can probably assume that those who do have been around long enough that they know the rules of the site and won't whitewash the info for their own purposes.


Yeah, this would be a disaster if allowed. Huge conflict of interest. Outside of the fringe constituent, I'd say that most bands, while they may respect MA as a resource, to them its a promotional tool first and they don't give a rat's ass about maintaining retroactive integrity regarding the facts and will whitewash without a second thought.
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MutantClannfear
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 2910
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 7:01 pm 
 

Diamhea wrote:
If it is going to be optional, then people will simply leave it blank, especially when making erroneous and/or malicious edits. The vast majority of the userbase either doesn't care or isn't acclimated to the minutiae of site protocol.

[...]

Yeah, this would be a disaster if allowed. Huge conflict of interest. Outside of the fringe constituent, I'd say that most bands, while they may respect MA as a resource, to them its a promotional tool first and they don't give a rat's ass about maintaining retroactive integrity regarding the facts and will whitewash without a second thought.

I think there's a misunderstanding. My suggestion means that, unless new information is being added, only Veterans (people who have proven themselves by contributing 1,000 points' worth of edits) or higher ranks will be able to use this field. Most band members are not Veterans on MA (this is what I meant by "autonomous editing power") and so they wouldn't be able to use this system to whitewash info unless they had contributed enough legitimate info to the database already anyway. Veterans aren't going to make "erroneous and/or malicious edits" as often as the userbase at large. You already acknowledge that by giving them the power to change basically whatever they want about the data.
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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
Posts: 8653
Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 7:05 pm 
 

Oh, I didn't see that mentioned anywhere. That would surely solve that concern.
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MutantClannfear
Veteran

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 2910
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:26 pm 
 

Can we maybe talk about this some more? It seems a lot of contributors like the idea to some degree or another.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 4594
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:16 pm 
 

I actually rather like this idea, and I don't see a problem with it so long as it's optional (albeit encouraged). The ability to have a way of checking sources for information would solve a lot of problems we have: in fact-checking, in reviewing bands, artists and labels, and in further collecting information from said sources.

Regarding maintenance, I don't know if maintenance would be necessary. Much like the source field in reports, the only time sources become relevant is when the information is reviewed. We don't maintain links in report sources, so I doubt we'd need to do the same for sources attached to edits. Of course links die, but the important thing is that we know where the evidence for the information may have been once located. That's a major improvement over the current system where we may have no idea where the evidence for that information could be found. Anything that helps the future versions of us figure things out is worth doing IMO.

I wouldn't mind dwelling on this a little. Maybe brainstorming and proposing a way it could be implemented with the least amount of hassle and abuse.
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Emptiness Cycle
Whirlwind of Fire

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:07 am
Posts: 393
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:34 am 
 

Derigin wrote:
I wouldn't mind dwelling on this a little. Maybe brainstorming and proposing a way it could be implemented with the least amount of hassle and abuse.


Feel free to bounce ideas my way if you like!

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