Azmodes

Sorry Taravilyaion, Encyclopaedia Metallum was forced to reject your submission for the band The B********* (United States), for the following reason:

You were warned repeatedly and explicitly -by a number of mods, including me- about trying to squeeze in subs before the release date. Not to mention a general disregard of moderators combined with a hostile, condescending, disrespectful demeanor.

And yet, after numerous warnings and messages, here we are again; first you submit a band prematurely and THEN *resubmit* it prematurely after explicit moderator instructions not to. Wow. I suppose all that's left now is to make good on past warnings and ban your account. Congratulations.

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The first time I submitted this band was a mistake as I really thought this new band's new album would be officially released the next day, turned out I filled in the wrong month and submitted it 'premature' indeed.

The second time I submitted that same band it just was couple of minutes before my (European) midnight and the album would be released the day after my midnight.
If the database (and mods/admins) strictly handle their own timezones which can have a 5-12hr difference, then yeah.. then such things will keep happening if you can't even take the differences in time in account.
You apparently can't fathom that one's middle of the night is someone else's morning the day before.

Nonetheless, I haven't done nothing anything purposely wrong.

Not every member comes from the same timezone.
I guess you forgot that little timezone thing or you simply don't care about the rest of the world's timezone(s) I suppose.

Timezones were taken into account. Personally, I would not consider 21:26 a "couple of minutes before my (European) midnight", but hey.

I cannot see that time now (at the moment), now can I?

I really thought I did it around midnight.
But yeah, couple of minutes, couple of hours I don't know, it's a week ago.
None the less, you might be right and I do apologize then.

If I was exhausted I might have submitted a bit earlier.
But it's not like I submitted it like weeks/months before but that's how it's treated now..

Okay, I messed up the conversion. It was actually 23:26 CEST. Still, it changes little and the key point here is that this was far from the first time. For the record, there have been at least four warnings that I know of concerning this tiresome issue before this one submission (which was for The Butchering, by the way; did you blank it out so that people wouldn't "steal" it...?). So forgive us for taking your explanations with a grain of salt.

For the record, we go by "MA time", i.e. GMT-4.

Taravilyaion, this isn't the first time you've done something like this. Your behaviour on the band queue over the years has been less than stellar. You've submitted bands prematurely just so you could be the first in the queue. You've knowingly submitted duplicates just so you could snipe a band from another submitter. You've regularly resubmitted bands without providing the evidence requested. And, every time you do this, you do so with contempt for us, with snide, passive-aggressive replies to us when we call you out on your actions. This doesn't even include the whole slew of other warnings you've received, especially in recent months, for such things like removing lyric credits (despite being warned) and incorrectly adding/editing album versions (despite being warned).

Please tell us, why should we keep you around when you break our rules, blatantly ignore our requests, and flip us off?

Yeah, to be clear, if this were a first (or even second) offense, it wouldn't be that big of a deal and would perhaps warrant a friendly notice by a staffer. We are aware that using "MA time" is not written down anywhere explicitly and (partially) for that reason hasn't exactly been strictly enforced (we're going to remedy that), so there is a certain leeway here given by mods. But when there is a clear history, a clear pattern of this FIRST!!! behaviour plus a cavalier at best, openly rude/insubordinate at worst treatment of the staff, that's another story entirely.

It's s stupid thing to get banned over and I find it frustrating when users, not to put too fine a point on it, force my hand, but basically the straw that broke the camel's back etc.

I did post lyrics under Misc. staff instead of "Current lineup", I did not remove it.
If someone tells me (quote) "so how about you fucking follow the rules of the site for once?" and it's not in the rules anywhere how do I know it's true?

If it turns out later to be only posted on the forums (which I barely ever visit btw) how the hell do I know if what is told me is true if it's not in the site's rules. Just like I've ready every written topic on the forums?

After it the info on the forums was shown, I haven't touched it anymore.

As for the rest of the 'primature' submissions
Yes, I did submit it early a couple of time to make sure I was the first but I never have submitted anything more than 48hrs ahead..
If submitted bands can be in the bandqueue for over 3 months while they're already been released for 2,5 weeks I don't see a much of a problem to have it up to a full day submitted early.

But it's ok, I'll be fine to change it.


As for

I never submitted the same band more than once (as far as I can remember).
I can list a dozen other bands who got snatched from me too.
Do they get punished as well? Then why should I be warned for it.
I most of the time check the bandqueue before I submit the band if it's already in the queue maybe on a few occasions I might not have but I certainly did not "snipe a band from another submitter" purposely eventhough it happened to me dozen times.

Not all minutiae of the site are spelled out in the rules. Not everything can be. In all fairness, I'm pretty sure this album lineup detail is on the massive digital pile of things to add for the next rule section overhaul. Nevertheless, when a moderator tells you to stop doing something, you don't ignore them, at the very least you stop doing it and politely ask for clarification and open a dialogue so that any confusion can be cleared up. You definitely do not just keep on going and you definitely do not end a message with "Are you on your period or something?" after the mod had to send you a second warning (just to provide some context for your quoted passage, which was part of the response to your PM).


It doesn't matter if it's two days or two weeks and you were repeatedly told as much.


The problem is that there is a simple rule and it applies to everyone. We are an archive of bands that have at least one release, not a to-be-release. The foundation of every band entry is something that exists, not something that will/may/might someday. Acceptable bands lingering in the queue isn't the issue here (3 months is extremely rare anyway, I'm not even sure I remember such a case in my time here). Personally, I'm hesitant to approve cases that were submitted in bad faith and later vindicated simply by the passage of time/a slow band queue, but other mods may be more forgiving/practical, especially if there aren't any more recent duplicates present (workload reduction and database growth trumping technicality, I suppose). These cases are often the product of mods simply not coming across the submission in time, not because we are tolerating them. We have parameters for acceptance that are outlined in the rules and we expect people to follow them. It also helps dealing with multiple submissions fairly; if there's people trying to cut in line and getting their wish that's ruining the whole point.


About two or three warnings too late.

If he tells me that I should read the rules and it's clearly not in the rules, I will do not believe it's a rules as it's not posted in the rules.
It's not my fault he didn't immediately showed me that rule on the forums, if he would have showed me that right away I wouldn't have been ticked off by the multiple warns about it.

He definitely could have been clear to me from the start instead of pointing me to rules which aren't even written in the rules.
And yes if someone tells me to "read the fucking rules", I will react the same aggressive way.

He simply could have posted in the first warn:

"Hey dude, the lyrics shouldn't be posted in the Misc. staff version.
Look here: This has been stated here by Morrigan herself, that lyrics should added to the main tab."

That would have been a total response instead of "how about you fucking follow the rules of the site?".

Okay, let's get something straight here. I had not told you to "read the fucking rules", I had told you follow the rules, after you had sent me the PM, as it was part of my response to your original PM which included the "are you on your period or something?" line. I had only sent you warnings on the site, in which I made it very clear where the lyric credits should be added. You are the one who had acted aggressive first and so I had responded with the comment I did (which mind you, is much less rude than saying "Are you on your period or something?"). The comment where I also told you to follow the rules was the same as the one where I had linked you Morri's post about lyric credits. If you originally didn't understand why I had sent you the warnings, or wanted to know where it is says what to do with lyric credits, you could have simply and politely sent me a PM asking for clarification instead of sending the one you had sent.

For what it's worth, here is my full response to your original PM to me: "No, this has been stated by Morrigan herself, so how about you fucking follow the rules of the site for once?"

Again..

If you simply posted this in the first warn I would have reacted totally different:

"Hey dude, the lyrics shouldn't be posted in the Misc. staff version.
Look here: This has been stated here by Morrigan herself, that lyrics should added to the main tab."

I have no access to the specific warnings anymore, so I can't read it back.
But I'm sure more was said before I asked that period question.
Else I wouldn't have been that annoyed.

No, the only things I had said to you previously were to stop moving the lyric credits of band members to the misc. tab. I'll put the warnings I had sent you into a pastebin to prove to you that I had not said anything besides telling you how to deal with lyric credits until you had PM'd me: https://pastebin.com/r3pETLZA

The first warning I had sent you should have been more than enough for someone to understand what they were being told. Also, this wasn't the first time, as I had told you (politely) a while ago how to deal with lyric credits: https://www.metal-archives.com/report/view/id/625438 Even if you didn't understand, you could have simply sent me a message asking for clarification after the first warning.

Yeah I could have.. but you could have simply sent me a message with the link too.
Why do I have to ask for clarification if you don't show me the 'rule' to explain why.
As I said in one of the replies, there are thousands of bandpages where an official member of the band writes/wrote the lyrics and that that has been added by other people to the misc. staff too.
If they can do it, I simply do not understand why I'm the only one warned/banned for doing it.

If I remember correctly was the 3rd warning for a band I submitted myself and changed it back after I noticed the page I created myself got changed.

It's not like I changed the lyricist from Ancient Empire and Immortal again back after both the warnings.

Since Taravilyaion has decided to put this on the forum for all of us to read, I'm wondering whether a sincere apology to Storm, along with other mods he's offended, would earn him a second chance. Would mods reconsider the verdict were he to plead guilty and actually mean it? Or has the case been closed?

The mods know where my loyalty lies, so I'm not trying to play an advocate here. Just hoping to ease the tension, is all.

I would do anything to apologize..
This is my main day 'job', I really have nothing else.

I wouldn't know what I would do without this database.
(yeah, I have no live..)

This really hits at the heart of the matter. It's one of the things that drives us up the wall, to be honest with you Taravilyaion.

We are moderators, but we are also volunteers that are here to help. It's not only our job here to be the policemen that monitor and oversee what's added and removed from the site, it's also our job to help users understand what we do, why we do what we do, and how they should use our site. We try our best to be there to explain things to our users so that they know what to do. We genuinely want to work with and engage with them. If you don't understand a rule, or a warning, or a practice, or a policy, we will politely and respectfully give you an answer. We will try to explain our decisions as best as we can. Hell, the fact that a thread like this wasn't immediately closed is a sign that we do care about doing that, even if the person we're engaging with is now banned and others may question why we bother to engage with someone now banished from this site. We try. We give our users many chances. We want to have good relations because we do understand their value and the value of being open and transparent with them. It's why we're less quick to outright banish people, and more likely to give multiple chances for them to change before taking such action.

We do this with one request from our users: all we expect in return is respect for us and our site.

But sadly it seems some users just don't get that, or they get it but refuse to respect that one wish. They treat us and our willingness to reach out to them with utter contempt, while trying to paint us as the overly aggressive assholes that just want to get in their way. They ignore us, and plead ignorance when we routinely inform them what not to do, and why they shouldn't do it. They question us, demanding answers from others when already provided an answer that they do not like. Above all, they offer nothing to our diplomatic overtures except passive aggressive, snide, and rude commentary on us and our site. And then! And then they expect us to accept them with open arms, like we're their servants here to cater to them, their interests, and their work.

No.

It is absolutely delusional to think after years of treating us with such disrespect and hostility that a user would expect us to let them continue to make a mockery of us and our site by having them continue to contribute here. It's delusional to think that, after so many opportunities for change, that we're willing to give yet another.

The part that makes me sad about this, Taravilyaion, is that you had so much potential at being a good user... and I mean that earnestly. You could have been the type of user that works with us - not against us - and who actually follows our rules and does so with pride, understanding, and respect. You could still have achieved all the prestige or value you place in getting as many points as possible and in being "first" without resorting to cheap tactics to do so, and total disrespect for us in the process. In fact, there's countless users that do that; when we tell them to stop, they stop. When they don't understand something, they ask us to clarify and they do what we say. And you know what, they're doing just fine. They're thriving even... perhaps even quite happy to contribute to this site. But sadly I think despite giving you all these opportunities in the past to be like them, you just never did. That's your fault, not ours.

I don't think there's anything left to say here. We gave you your answer. Live with it.