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NikeOfSamothrace
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:34 pm
Posts: 561
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:49 am 
 

I'm just curious to see if there are any religions or Organizations that paint Satan in a good light?
Other than LaVeyan Satanism, I'm only familiar with the Christian view of Satan (rebel against god, fallen angel) and I've realised I never really got to hear Satan's side, just more of the Christian view.
So if Anyone can help, much appreciated.

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Sadness_for_Life
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:15 am
Posts: 377
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:32 am 
 

Sounds like you're looking for Luciferianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferianism
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prince_of_the_frets
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:36 am
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Location: Bangladesh
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:26 am 
 

According to that article, I don't really see the relation with Satan (that of Christianity). They may be the one and the same to many people but it looks to me that they are not really trying to associate their Lucifer with Satan.

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DrFunkenstein
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Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:53 pm
Posts: 651
Location: Azerbaijan
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:27 am 
 

Read Paradise Lost. It has an account of Satan's rebellion and the aftermath of it. It's almost comical at times (imagine a war between two groups of beings that can't die), but if you want to hear things from Satan's point of view that's a good place to start. Milton doesn't exactly sympathize with Satan, but it's more neutral than the Bible.

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Menschenfeindlic
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:05 am
Posts: 256
Location: Syria
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:47 pm 
 

I think this is what are you looking for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidi

Quote:
Furthermore, the Yazidi story regarding Tawûsê Melek's rise to favor with God is almost identical to the story of the jinn Iblis in Islam, except that Yazidis revere Tawûsê Melek for refusing to submit to Adam, while Muslims believe that Iblis' refusal to submit caused him to fall out of Grace with God, and to later become Satan himself.[10]

Tawûsê Melek is often identified by Muslims and Christians with Shaitan (Satan). Yazidis, however, believe Tawûsê Melek is not a source of evil or wickedness. They consider him to be the leader of the archangels, not a fallen angel. They also hold that the source of evil is in the heart and spirit of humans themselves, not in Tawûsê Melek. The active forces in their religion are Tawûsê Melek and Sheik Adî.
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phoenix6669
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:45 pm
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:28 pm 
 

prince_of_the_frets wrote:
According to that article, I don't really see the relation with Satan (that of Christianity). They may be the one and the same to many people but it looks to me that they are not really trying to associate their Lucifer with Satan.

That's true, however nevertheless it refers to the same thing. For example one person could describe Christianity as a religion of harmony and salvation whereas another person could describe it as an evil brainwashing cult, and both people would be referring to the same thing even though they would be seeing it in vastly different lights.

I recently wrote a brief article about the confusing relationship between Satanism and metal on my blog here. As I indicate in that, there are many different interpretations of Satanism, plenty of which see it as a well-intentioned path. Two examples are Joy of Satan or - one I'm more fond of personally - Satanic Reds.

If you want to ask some Satanists about it directly I'd recommend OccultCorpus discussion forum.
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mirrormorbid
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:11 pm
Posts: 178
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:44 am 
 

NikeOfSamothrace wrote:
I'm just curious to see if there are any religions or Organizations that paint Satan in a good light?
Other than LaVeyan Satanism, I'm only familiar with the Christian view of Satan (rebel against god, fallen angel) and I've realised I never really got to hear Satan's side, just more of the Christian view.
So if Anyone can help, much appreciated.


Even though Christians claim Sola Scriptura, Satan's story as a "fallen angel" is a bit lacking straight in the text without interpreting. In the Old Testament, Satan is not really identified as an evil being, although he does tempt and test the Israelites.

In Revelation, it mentions a war with heaven with Satan being thrown down, but the association with "Lucifer" who was God's "anointed cherub" has no in-text labeling as Satan. The story of Lucifer seems to be given to the King of Babylon. Also, since the Israelites believed their God anointed kings, it's very possible that the Lucifer story simply applied to that king.

Calling the King of Babylon an anointed cherub and that he tried to rise and be like "the Most High" (God) could have just been a metaphor for saying that the King of Babylon abused his power and endangered Israel, thus rebelling against the God who supposedly gave him his kingship in the first place.

Yeah, Babylon is associated with "the kingdom of darkness", but it's a bit of reading in between the lines for me. I believe the Christians simply slip in Satan's name in there by interpretation.

If you really want to read it, it's Isa 14 basically.

Now the Rev. text is a Christian text, that's one thing. Also, it refers to Satan as a dragon, not an angel. He is also mentioned to have angels too.
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Cryptaria
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Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:01 pm
Posts: 190
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:23 am 
 

DrFunkenstein wrote:
Satan's ... can't die


He most certainly can. Plenty of angels died in the initial war fought between the two sides and he's just the leader of the rebellion.

LaVey Satanism does not paint Satan in the picture of any sort of deitific light. He's viewed as a force of nature. I'm sure you'd know this if you actually read their Bible.

What side is there to see with the bad guy? It's a fictional story to begin with.

"They should have just heard Darth Sidious' side of the story. I'm sure people would have understood his actions if they simply looked from his perspective."

Save your post modern nonsense for 4-Chan and The Second Age forums please.
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prince_of_the_frets
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:36 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:36 am 
 

Cryptaria wrote:
DrFunkenstein wrote:
Satan's ... can't die


He most certainly can. Plenty of angels died in the initial war fought between the two sides and he's just the leader of the rebellion.

LaVey Satanism does not paint Satan in the picture of any sort of deitific light. He's viewed as a force of nature. I'm sure you'd know this if you actually read their Bible.

What side is there to see with the bad guy? It's a fictional story to begin with.

"They should have just heard Darth Sidious' side of the story. I'm sure people would have understood his actions if they simply looked from his perspective."

Save your post modern nonsense for 4-Chan and The Second Age forums please.


I agree. Theistic satanism, if satan is actually considered an existing entity, is ridiculous. Atheistic satanism, on the other hand, has plenty of good ideas.

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FabHM78
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:03 pm
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Location: Italy
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:57 am 
 

"we never ever will die,'cos Heavy Metal is life and not eternal hell,we always will believe,destroying Satan's league we take a drink from the Well".
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Rottenrectum
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:41 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:10 pm 
 

Satan is the hebrew word for "adversary" and that's why most religions have a version of satan, the devil in christianity for example. In general satan represents everything the "good" deity doensn't stand for and is therefor evil.
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phoenix6669
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:45 pm
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:22 pm 
 

Rottenrectum wrote:
Satan is the hebrew word for "adversary" and that's why most religions have a version of satan, the devil in christianity for example. In general satan represents everything the "good" deity doensn't stand for and is therefor evil.

From an occult perspective, "adversary" in no way equates with "evil". On the Qabalistic Tree of Life for example you have two side pillars, that of Severity to the left and that of Mercy to the right, and both are necessary - imbalance in either one causes what you would call "evil". For instance, some would argue that contemporary Christianity lacks severity with all its focus on salvation, and thereby is ironically actually grossly lacking in mercy as it always passes judgment, represses, and wages war all in the name of salvation.

Or to take another example from the perspective of astrology, the influence of Saturn entails adversity but it is not construed as anything to shy away from because it is understood that challenge allows one to learn and build character.

A more mundane example would be that of government - you need "checks and balances" as the term goes.
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Cryptaria
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Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:01 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:29 am 
 

Clearly your occult sources are fucking stupid for siding with the enemy in the over-arching collective of fictional stories revolving around deities who don't hate you.

Not surprising to find this on a Metal forum.
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Thumbman
Big Cube

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:17 pm 
 

Im sick of metal heads talking about satan. Its getting old.

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phoenix6669
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:45 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:54 pm 
 

dystopia4 wrote:
Im sick of metal heads talking about satan. Its getting old.

Could you elaborate?
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heavymetalbackwards
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:49 am
Posts: 1940
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:03 pm 
 

phoenix6669 wrote:
dystopia4 wrote:
Im sick of metal heads talking about satan. Its getting old.

Could you elaborate?


Yeah, Satan is awesome. Metallica once said that songs about the devil and sex are boring, but they couldn't be more incorrect. Both of those crack my top 5 favorite lyrical themes.

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phoenix6669
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:45 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:13 pm 
 

heavymetalbackwards wrote:
phoenix6669 wrote:
dystopia4 wrote:
Im sick of metal heads talking about satan. Its getting old.

Could you elaborate?


Yeah, Satan is awesome. Metallica once said that songs about the devil and sex are boring, but they couldn't be more incorrect. Both of those crack my top 5 favorite lyrical themes.

The devil and sex?
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heavymetalbackwards
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:49 am
Posts: 1940
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:22 pm 
 

phoenix6669 wrote:
heavymetalbackwards wrote:
phoenix6669 wrote:
dystopia4 wrote:
Im sick of metal heads talking about satan. Its getting old.

Could you elaborate?


Yeah, Satan is awesome. Metallica once said that songs about the devil and sex are boring, but they couldn't be more incorrect. Both of those crack my top 5 favorite lyrical themes.

The devil and sex?


respectively, mind you.

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phoenix6669
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:45 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:49 pm 
 

Hehe, OK then.
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Thumbman
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Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:41 am 
 

phoenix6669 wrote:
dystopia4 wrote:
Im sick of metal heads talking about satan. Its getting old.

Could you elaborate?


Well it was cool when sabbath did it in the 70's when the subject was still taboo and it concerned a lot of parents that satan was in popular music (now with gangsta rap satan doesn't really seem like that big of a concern.) But now that there's like 2 million metal bands all singing about satan its becoming cliche and the shock value has long worn off. I don't know it just doesn't seem that original to me and i don't want the metal genre to slip into stagnation.

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Cryptaria
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:15 am 
 

There's nothing at this point that can provide shock in verbal form. I'd say that even the visual format has long since lost it's touch. Pictures of dead animals and Jesus Christ crucified in a vat of piss do nothing for most people any more. Bands like Cannibal Corpse did away with the "shock value" behind describing things such as disembowelment, zombie cannibalism ad infinitum. This principle is essentially true of all genres and their respective subject matter. Megadeth singing about politics, Opeth singing about depression, Ephel Duath singing about philosophical nonsense, Amon Amarth singing about hacking at your enemies with a sword after jumping off your longboat?
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Cyrax666
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Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:45 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:33 am 
 

I honestly find that lyrical themes about serial killers in metal is still quite fresh and still do have the potential to shock the listener.

Most likely due to not every killer is the same in many different aspects (techniques, weapons etc.)
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 9320
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:56 am 
 

DrFunkenstein wrote:
Read Paradise Lost. It has an account of Satan's rebellion and the aftermath of it. It's almost comical at times (imagine a war between two groups of beings that can't die), but if you want to hear things from Satan's point of view that's a good place to start. Milton doesn't exactly sympathize with Satan, but it's more neutral than the Bible.


Oh, Milton comes down firmly on the side of Yaweh, but the cool thing is that for the first half of the epic, you think he might not..he actually does a better job than I'm sure anyone else did previously of taking up the devil's point of view. I believe much of christian demonology concepts actually come from him and other renaissance artists rather than the Bible itself. I could be wrong about this, but from my memory it seems that the Bible doesn't really go into much detail about Satan's minions, what positions they might serve, what uses they might have, etc...whereas Milton pretty much created an entire mythology around it based on biblical and pagan ideas (his description of Sin and Death certainly don't seem to come from christian theology).

Hey funkenstein, answer my question in the newby thread. ;)
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Voice_of_Reason
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Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:38 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:17 pm 
 

Funny enough, Melkorism is by far the best example of what you're asking for. If you assume Eruvater = God and Melkor = Satan (not too big a stretch).
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DrFunkenstein
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Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:53 pm
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Location: Azerbaijan
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:38 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
DrFunkenstein wrote:
Read Paradise Lost. It has an account of Satan's rebellion and the aftermath of it. It's almost comical at times (imagine a war between two groups of beings that can't die), but if you want to hear things from Satan's point of view that's a good place to start. Milton doesn't exactly sympathize with Satan, but it's more neutral than the Bible.


Oh, Milton comes down firmly on the side of Yaweh, but the cool thing is that for the first half of the epic, you think he might not..he actually does a better job than I'm sure anyone else did previously of taking up the devil's point of view. I believe much of christian demonology concepts actually come from him and other renaissance artists rather than the Bible itself. I could be wrong about this, but from my memory it seems that the Bible doesn't really go into much detail about Satan's minions, what positions they might serve, what uses they might have, etc...whereas Milton pretty much created an entire mythology around it based on biblical and pagan ideas (his description of Sin and Death certainly don't seem to come from christian theology).

Hey funkenstein, answer my question in the newby thread. ;)

Well yeah but like I said you're not really going to find a truly neutral version of the story that's not either completely outside of the traditionally accepted concept of Christian mythology or by a modern author interpreting things. Milton I think comes closest, but that's not to say that he's a great mediator or anything.

Sorry, I didn't notice it! I responded though haha

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phoenix6669
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:45 pm
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:06 pm 
 

Cryptaria wrote:
There's nothing at this point that can provide shock in verbal form. I'd say that even the visual format has long since lost it's touch. Pictures of dead animals and Jesus Christ crucified in a vat of piss do nothing for most people any more. Bands like Cannibal Corpse did away with the "shock value" behind describing things such as disembowelment, zombie cannibalism ad infinitum. This principle is essentially true of all genres and their respective subject matter. Megadeth singing about politics, Opeth singing about depression, Ephel Duath singing about philosophical nonsense, Amon Amarth singing about hacking at your enemies with a sword after jumping off your longboat?

I can see the headlines now: "In an unexpected turn of events, in order to continue shocking and disturbing their hardened audiences, metal bands are now beginning to sing about those things which were once the furthest from their mind - pink ribbons, rainbows, and Barney the dinosaur."
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Cryptaria
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Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:01 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:09 pm 
 

They can do it. They can make that shit metal.
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somefella
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
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Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:49 am 
 

Voice_of_Reason wrote:
Funny enough, Melkorism is by far the best example of what you're asking for. If you assume Eruvater = God and Melkor = Satan (not too big a stretch).


This.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 11421
Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:58 am 
 

Voice_of_Reason wrote:
Funny enough, Melkorism is by far the best example of what you're asking for. If you assume Eruvater = God and Melkor = Satan (not too big a stretch).


Did you just make that up, or have people actually founded religions (and counter-religions, even) based on The Silmarillion?
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ChronoSphere666
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Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 12:38 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:32 pm 
 

I second Milton's Paradise Lost, and I also suggest William Blake's Marriage of Heaven and Hell.
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phoenix6669
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:47 pm 
 

There is also Setianism which I forgot to mention.
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