Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Register   * Login 



This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7455
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:44 am 
 

Expedience wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Expedience wrote:
Half a century ago it was believed smoking was healthy. I do think it has some health benefits, they are just overridden by smoking too much (more than a couple of cigs a day). I mean people take herbs all the time and there's no complaints. I think people are just opposed to intake of substances through the lungs, not just the effects of tobacco.

And what exactly do you base this belief on?


Did you miss the post half a page up by einvolk?

Yes, and I call bullshit on it. I also call bullshit on a few cigs a day behing healthy as well as people only hating it because it's inhaled.
_________________
gomorro wrote:
Fortunately the seminar started and when it finished, I runed away like if Usain Bolt were about to rape me.

Top
 Profile  
heavymetalbackwards
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:49 am
Posts: 1940
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:32 am 
 

AppleQueso wrote:

Can I ask a question then, if most smokers know how bad it is for them, why do they choose to take it up to begin with? I mean I understand if you'd taken up smoking a long time ago, but why do people even start these days? It's just not sensible.


Many people my age who smoke started with cigars. They do this for social reasons, because cigars are associated with the wealthy, mature and intelligent. They then become addicted and stop caring about the image, and before you know it they're just buying packs of cigarettes because they need to smoke.

I've also seen some people just jump right into cigarettes because for some reason they consider it mature. I understand cigars, but I don't see that image quite as much in cigarettes. Personally, I just don't care to even try smoking.

Top
 Profile  
Expedience
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:22 am
Posts: 4509
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:10 am 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Expedience wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Expedience wrote:
Half a century ago it was believed smoking was healthy. I do think it has some health benefits, they are just overridden by smoking too much (more than a couple of cigs a day). I mean people take herbs all the time and there's no complaints. I think people are just opposed to intake of substances through the lungs, not just the effects of tobacco.

And what exactly do you base this belief on?


Did you miss the post half a page up by einvolk?

Yes, and I call bullshit on it. I also call bullshit on a few cigs a day behing healthy as well as people only hating it because it's inhaled.


Well, it's peer reviewed research. You can't call me out for not basing my belief on anything, then not base your belief that peer-reviewed research is rubbish on anything.

Top
 Profile  
The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7455
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:37 am 
 

Put simply, I question the accuracy of those works. It is the first time I've ever seen anything to suggest that tobacco smoking has actual physiological benefits and the rather convenient 50% satistic thrown around looks terrible suspicious.

EDIT: Beside, the author einvolk was quoting is a known crackpot.
_________________
gomorro wrote:
Fortunately the seminar started and when it finished, I runed away like if Usain Bolt were about to rape me.

Top
 Profile  
Mungo
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:41 pm
Posts: 662
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:03 am 
 

AppleQueso wrote:
Can I ask a question then, if most smokers know how bad it is for them, why do they choose to take it up to begin with? I mean I understand if you'd taken up smoking a long time ago, but why do people even start these days? It's just not sensible.

I don't mean to judge or anything though, so sorry if I seem that way.


For the same reason people drink and do drugs; it feels good. Smoking usually gives you a decent buzz for several minutes and relaxes you somewhat, so naturally people are going to pick it up considering it's legal and cheap (despite what the pack a day smokers would have you think) as well.

I used to smoke every now and then, now I do it rarely. Reason being is that firstly the effects wear off for me the more I do it in a given time span, and secondly because I'd rather just smoke marijuana. Not to mention it is rather addictive and does have the aforementioned health problems associated with it.

In all honesty however, I think the whole anti smoking campaigns are going too far. It is a person's choice to pick up smoking and no amount of advertising complete with gory imagery is really going to change much. If anything, it reinforces the rebellious image predominant amongst teen smokers and increases one's curiosity as to the effects of it. The stupidity surrounding said campaigns can be pointed out predominantly through the idea that hiding cig packets behind a counter will somehow discourage smoking.

It should be up to the owner of the property or establishment to decide whether or not they want to allow it.

Top
 Profile  
ebulus
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:46 am
Posts: 782
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:48 am 
 

einvolk wrote:
for Forbes in 1994, Peter Brimelow in part wrote:
Well, what are the rewards of cigarette smoking? Apart from intangible pleasure, the most obvious is behavioral. A battery of studies, such as those by British researcher D.M. Warburton, show that cigarettes, whatever their other effects, really do stimulate alertness, dexterity and cognitive capacity.

And alertness, dexterity, etc., can be useful. Such as when driving. Or flying-as Congress recognized when it exempted airline pilots from the ban on smoking on domestic flights.

These behavioral benefits suggest an answer to the Great Tobacco Mystery: why almost a third of adult Americans continue to do something they are told, incessantly and insistently, is bad for them. (Duke University economist W. Kip Viscusi reported in his 1992 book, Smoking: Making the Risky Decision, that survey data show smokers, if anything, exaggerate the health danger of their habit).

Smokers, according to numerous studies such as those by University of Michigan researchers Ovide and Cynthia Pomerleau, are different from nonsmokers. They tend toward depression and excitability. Current understanding is that nicotine is "amphoteric" that is, it can act to counter both conditions, depending on how it is consumed. (Quick puffs stimulate, long drags calm.)

The implication is fascinating. A large part of the population seems to be aware of its significant although not pathological personality quirks, and to have discovered a form of self-edication that regulates them.

Of course, this explanation for the stubbornness of smokers is not as satisfying as what Washington prefers to believe: mass seduction by the wicked tobacco companies and their irresistible advertising. Nor would it justify huge rescue operations by heroic politicians and bureaucrats.

Beyond its behavioral effects, smoking seems also to offer subtler health rewards to balance against its undisputed risks:

Parkinson's disease. The frequency of this degenerative disorder of the nervous system among smokers appears to be half the rate among nonsmokers – an effect recognized by the Surgeon General as along ago as 1964.

Alzheimer's disease. Similarly, the frequency of this degenerative mental disorder has recently been found to be as much as 50%less among smokers than among nonsmokers for example, by the H studies reviewed in the International Journal of Epidemiology in 1991.

Endometrial cancer. There is extensive and long-standing evidence that this disease of the womb occurs as much as 50% less among smokers as documented by, for example, a New England Journal of Medicine article back in 1985. The triggering mechanism appears to be a reduction on estrogen levels.

Prostate cancer. Conversely, smoking seems to raise estrogen levels in men and may be responsible for what appears to be a 50% lower rate of prostate cancer among smokers, although this needs corroboration.

Osteoarthritis. This degenerative disorder of bone and cartilage is up to five times less likely to occur among heavy smokers as documented, for example, by the federal government's first Health and Nutrition Examination Survey.

Colon cancer, ulcerative colitis These diseases of the bowel seem to be about 30% and 50% less frequent among smokers documented, for example, by articles in the Journal of the American Medical Association and in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1981 and 1983, respectively.

Other benefits that have been suggested for smoking: Lower rates of sarcoidosis and allergic alveolitis, both lung disorders, and possibly even acne. Smokers are also lighter ironically, because obesity is a leading cause of the cardiovascular disease that smoking is also supposed to exacerbate. So you could quit smoking and still die of a heart attack because of the weight you put on.



Smokers have a higher risk of dimentia compared to non smokers

Reference: Ott, A.; SLooter, A.J.C.; Hofman, A.; Van Harskamp, Witteman, J.C.M.; Van Broekhoven, C.; Van Duijn, C.M.; Breteler, M.M.B.
Smoking and risk of dementia and Alzheimer's disease in a population-based cohort study: The Rotterdam Study, Lancet, 1998, 351, 1840-1843.

Top
 Profile  
joelc
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 4:03 pm
Posts: 11
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:57 pm 
 

Tobacco is and was a definitive characteristic in the making of our nations in North-America... and had a huge impact in Europe for centuries, defining what a westerner was. One who dress in cotton and smoke the pipe.

Any talks against Tobacco is idiotic. No health issues is relevant in the balance. Smoking have done a lot more good in the world than bad. Same with coffee. Same with alcohol. Engines of great civilizations!

It is not as great as coffee in it's shaping of the world, but it's in the balance. Coffee and cigarette are the stuff of legends, of literary genius, of philosophers and of revolutionaries. If we lose them, we lose our soul!

Everyone should smoke, at least socially.

Top
 Profile  
ebulus
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:46 am
Posts: 782
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:11 pm 
 

joelc wrote:
Tobacco is and was a definitive characteristic in the making of our nations in North-America... and had a huge impact in Europe for centuries, defining what a westerner was. One who dress in cotton and smoke the pipe.

Any talks against Tobacco is idiotic. No health issues is relevant in the balance. Smoking have done a lot more good in the world than bad. Same with coffee. Same with alcohol. Engines of great civilizations!

It is not as great as coffee in it's shaping of the world, but it's in the balance. Coffee and cigarette are the stuff of legends, of literary genius, of philosophers and of revolutionaries. If we lose them, we lose our soul!

Everyone should smoke, at least socially.


This before people discovered it was harmful

Top
 Profile  
MikeyC
Official Greeter of Broken Hills

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:16 am
Posts: 14219
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:19 pm 
 

joelc wrote:
Everyone should smoke, at least socially.

No thanks.
_________________
ZarathustraHead wrote:
That person is me. ZarathustraHead.

ZarathustraHead wrote:
You can find me listening to the good, real shit. The real good shit. I'll be here.

Top
 Profile  
MocktheCross
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:50 pm
Posts: 15
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:35 am 
 

I don't think I could ever smoke but I have nothing against people who do.

Top
 Profile  
The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7455
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:44 am 
 

joelc wrote:
Tobacco is and was a definitive characteristic in the making of our nations in North-America... and had a huge impact in Europe for centuries, defining what a westerner was. One who dress in cotton and smoke the pipe.

Any talks against Tobacco is idiotic. No health issues is relevant in the balance. Smoking have done a lot more good in the world than bad. Same with coffee. Same with alcohol. Engines of great civilizations!

It is not as great as coffee in it's shaping of the world, but it's in the balance. Coffee and cigarette are the stuff of legends, of literary genius, of philosophers and of revolutionaries. If we lose them, we lose our soul!

Everyone should smoke, at least socially.

Moron.
_________________
gomorro wrote:
Fortunately the seminar started and when it finished, I runed away like if Usain Bolt were about to rape me.

Top
 Profile  
MaDTransilvanian
Caravan Beyond Redemption

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 3789
Location: Romania
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:47 am 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
joelc wrote:
Tobacco is and was a definitive characteristic in the making of our nations in North-America... and had a huge impact in Europe for centuries, defining what a westerner was. One who dress in cotton and smoke the pipe.

Any talks against Tobacco is idiotic. No health issues is relevant in the balance. Smoking have done a lot more good in the world than bad. Same with coffee. Same with alcohol. Engines of great civilizations!

It is not as great as coffee in it's shaping of the world, but it's in the balance. Coffee and cigarette are the stuff of legends, of literary genius, of philosophers and of revolutionaries. If we lose them, we lose our soul!

Everyone should smoke, at least socially.

Moron.


Wow that first post was retarded. Hell, by that logic why don't we all get along to doing hard drugs, since that's what contributed to the creation of great albums such as Peace Sells... But Who's Buying?
_________________
The band career analysis thread.

Top
 Profile  
Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35289
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:50 am 
 

joelc wrote:
Tobacco is and was a definitive characteristic in the making of our nations in North-America... and had a huge impact in Europe for centuries, defining what a westerner was. One who dress in cotton and smoke the pipe.

Any talks against Tobacco is idiotic. No health issues is relevant in the balance. Smoking have done a lot more good in the world than bad. Same with coffee. Same with alcohol. Engines of great civilizations!

It is not as great as coffee in it's shaping of the world, but it's in the balance. Coffee and cigarette are the stuff of legends, of literary genius, of philosophers and of revolutionaries. If we lose them, we lose our soul!

Everyone should smoke, at least socially.


Wow, is this post retarded. Good job. So what, literary genius and philosophy just aren't the same without cigarettes and coffee? What a load. Yes, they are culturally important, but "everyone should smoke"? That is just...eugh, this is ridiculous.

Top
 Profile  
Eurnonymous
Streetcleaner

Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:46 am
Posts: 3097
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:32 am 
 

the crappy diets and lifestyles most people live today are far worse for one's health than smoking. our air is more polluted than what tobacco smoke could ever do in mass quantities. we like to ignore the bigger problems and focus on what's "right" for other people's health, since we know what's better for them than they do.

Obama is still struggling with his own nicotine addiction, but they are fighting to get all "light/low tar/flavored" cigarettes outlawed, to decrease the chances of younger people ever picking up smoking. soon, you'll probably have to go to an underground smoke shop exclusively for cigarettes. it'll be like prohibition-era times.

i don't smoke, i don't care to be around it, but i do care when people have their own right to make a choice taken away from them by other people who think they know what's better for the smoker's interest.

Top
 Profile  
heavymetalbackwards
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:49 am
Posts: 1940
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:01 am 
 

joelc wrote:
Tobacco is and was a definitive characteristic in the making of our nations in North-America... and had a huge impact in Europe for centuries, defining what a westerner was. One who dress in cotton and smoke the pipe.

Any talks against Tobacco is idiotic. No health issues is relevant in the balance. Smoking have done a lot more good in the world than bad. Same with coffee. Same with alcohol. Engines of great civilizations!

It is not as great as coffee in it's shaping of the world, but it's in the balance. Coffee and cigarette are the stuff of legends, of literary genius, of philosophers and of revolutionaries. If we lose them, we lose our soul!

Everyone should smoke, at least socially.


Maybe what he's saying is that it's okay to enjoy a smoke once in a while, or a drink once in a while, just as a social thing. I can buy that, although I personally don't want to smoke.

Look at Native American tribes who would smoke the "peace pipe" and such concepts (I've been to Native American festivals where the idea is still reenacted today). Smoking is really only bad for your health if abused or done on a regular basis. I could still see purpose for it being used in modern rituals and social events, even among intelligent and educated people, so long as moderation, self-control, and common sense are employed.

Top
 Profile  
Astrum502
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:55 pm
Posts: 195
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:03 pm 
 

I quit smoking years ago, but now I enjoy dry nasal snuff. This stuff is awesome, esp if you get the quality European types. Germany's Poschl is great, UK McChrystal's, Wilsons of Sharrow... there is so many. Great tobacco enjoyment, and a way many have gotten off ciggs.
_________________
ASTRUM: Rebirth of First Wave Metal Punk!
http://www.reverbnation.com/themightyastrum

Top
 Profile  
KingVold
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:05 am
Posts: 1081
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:07 pm 
 

PhilosophicalFrog wrote:
KingVold wrote:
In my state, indoor smoking and smoking near the doors to buildings has been outlawed. I think this is reasonable. I'm not getting polluted by other people's choices.

You have an excellent point about the cars however.


Indoor smoking prohibition should be limited to public venues only. If a business owner wants smoking, he is within his limits to allow it, the government should not step in to tell him what to do with his establishment, especially a non franchised local place.


I don't agree. Should they have the right to pump the room with ammonia fumes if they want to?
_________________
ENKC wrote:
I honestly have no idea what the subject of this thread is.


AppleQueso wrote:
Acidgobblin wrote:
I refuse to listen to a genre using an onamatapoeiac descriptor.

Motion to change "Death Metal" to "EEURRRGHHH"

Top
 Profile  
KingVold
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:05 am
Posts: 1081
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:11 pm 
 

joelc wrote:
Any talks against Tobacco is idiotic. No health issues is relevant in the balance. Smoking have done a lot more good in the world than bad.

Like what?
I can't think of anything good smoking has done besides making a small portion of the population happy.
_________________
ENKC wrote:
I honestly have no idea what the subject of this thread is.


AppleQueso wrote:
Acidgobblin wrote:
I refuse to listen to a genre using an onamatapoeiac descriptor.

Motion to change "Death Metal" to "EEURRRGHHH"

Top
 Profile  
The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7455
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:31 pm 
 

heavymetalbackwards wrote:
joelc wrote:
Tobacco is and was a definitive characteristic in the making of our nations in North-America... and had a huge impact in Europe for centuries, defining what a westerner was. One who dress in cotton and smoke the pipe.

Any talks against Tobacco is idiotic. No health issues is relevant in the balance. Smoking have done a lot more good in the world than bad. Same with coffee. Same with alcohol. Engines of great civilizations!

It is not as great as coffee in it's shaping of the world, but it's in the balance. Coffee and cigarette are the stuff of legends, of literary genius, of philosophers and of revolutionaries. If we lose them, we lose our soul!

Everyone should smoke, at least socially.


Maybe what he's saying is that it's okay to enjoy a smoke once in a while, or a drink once in a while, just as a social thing. I can buy that, although I personally don't want to smoke.

Look at Native American tribes who would smoke the "peace pipe" and such concepts (I've been to Native American festivals where the idea is still reenacted today). Smoking is really only bad for your health if abused or done on a regular basis. I could still see purpose for it being used in modern rituals and social events, even among intelligent and educated people, so long as moderation, self-control, and common sense are employed.

Okay, we'll make a concession here; smokers will not be confronted if they restrict their habit to one pipe at the yearly pow-wow.
_________________
gomorro wrote:
Fortunately the seminar started and when it finished, I runed away like if Usain Bolt were about to rape me.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

 
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group