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Bobby_Typhoon
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:28 pm
Posts: 456
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:23 am 
 

For those of you who havn't been following this story I will give a brief run down.

On March 17, 2009 two American journalists were kidnapped by the N. Korean government for what they're calling a "grave crime". The two women we're sentenced Monday to 12 years in prison.

Not only are they going to prison, but they're going to a hard labor prison. N. Korea is infamous for their prison system. One in which 20%-25% of prisoners die a year.

Normally I am not one for drastic action, or prone to a John Wayne style rescue with guns a blazin' but this has me extremely riled up. The N. Koreans have no proof of the journalists doing anything wrong, and if they did have proof, they most likely wouldn't show it.

I think the Special Forces or Green Berets or whoever should just go in there and rescue them. Granted that would most likely lead to casualties, and even farther strained relations, but I really don't think we should sit here with thumbs up our asses.

I don't know...what are your opinions?
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heavymetalbackwards
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:49 am
Posts: 1940
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:34 am 
 

Bobby_Typhoon wrote:
For those of you who havn't been following this story I will give a brief run down.

On March 17, 2009 two American journalists were kidnapped by the N. Korean government for what they're calling a "grave crime". The two women we're sentenced Monday to 12 years in prison.

Not only are they going to prison, but they're going to a hard labor prison. N. Korea is infamous for their prison system. One in which 20%-25% of prisoners die a year.

Normally I am not one for drastic action, or prone to a John Wayne style rescue with guns a blazin' but this has me extremely riled up. The N. Koreans have no proof of the journalists doing anything wrong, and if they did have proof, they most likely wouldn't show it.

I think the Special Forces or Green Berets or whoever should just go in there and rescue them. Granted that would most likely lead to casualties, and even farther strained relations, but I really don't think we should sit here with thumbs up our asses.

I don't know...what are your opinions?


Assuming the journalists were there completely legally, we need to take violent actions in order to bring our innocent citizens home. Try to discuss things first, but I doubt it will work. I hate North Korea.

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Avaddons_blood
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:23 am 
 

heavymetalbackwards wrote:
Assuming the journalists were there completely legally, we need to take violent actions in order to bring our innocent citizens home. Try to discuss things first, but I doubt it will work. I hate North Korea.


I don't believe they were there legally. I doubt violent action can be justified by this. They broke a nations laws and a punishment was instituted even though it was a harsh and unreasonable punishment. Violent action will result in more lose than there is to possibly gain.

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heavymetalbackwards
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:49 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:26 am 
 

Avaddons_blood wrote:

I don't believe they were there legally. I doubt violent action can be justified by this. They broke a nations laws and a punishment was instituted even though it was a harsh and unreasonable punishment. Violent action will result in more lose than there is to possibly gain.


Well, if they were there illegally and committing crimes, then I am on your side.

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Bobby_Typhoon
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:34 pm 
 

the only illegal action they could've done was entering N. Korea ilegally. And even though that is what is being said, N. Korea has been kidnapping people for years, so my money is on the fact that N. Korean border guards were overly aggresive and crossed into China and grabbed the two women. I wouldn't condone violence either, but this is just plain absurd. The women didn't hurt anyone.
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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:29 pm 
 

When you get too close to the border of a country like North Korea, right or wrong, bad things are likely to happen. Especially when considering that the person running said country has about two times the level of paranoia that Josef Stalin did and sees clandestine agents metaphysically phasing through the walls of his mansion. If anything, whoever it was that recommended that they go over to that country or hang around its border with China should be sent to prison for knowingly duping two unfortunate women into going out on an insane assignment like this.

I'm curious to see how our government will react to this. Regardless to whether it's the appeasement route or the use of force route, it will be the wrong decision. It's sort of ironic that despite all of this nonsense about Obama's administration being different from Bush's that now it seems we're turning up the heat on his "Axis Of Evil". But regardless, if these women get out of this, they will have had a lesson in the fine line between courage and insanity.
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potassium_cianide
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:16 am 
 

Usually, when someone is illegal (or doing something illegal) in another country, shouldn't this country arrest the person and then extradite him/her? So I think that the single fact of N. Korea arresting the journalists and taking them to a forced labor field breaks international laws, right?

Then I think the international community should make efforts to, first, try to convince N. Korean government to take a step back in this action (which - I think - will be worthless, but should be tried anyway), and then, if nothing works, get in there and take the chicks out. The problem is it may start a war, and a lunatic in possession of a nuke is not a good guy to start a war with.
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immortalshadow666
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:12 am 
 

As much as North Korea has one of the most staggeringly horrific record of human rights abuses in the history of any government, and that Kim Jong-Il is an absolute lunatic, the fact is, it IS their country and they can essentially do what they like in terms of making and enforcing laws.

Do not think that this means I agree with their treatment of these women for one second - it's terrible that they've suffered these fates. However, as I mentioned before, the sad fact is they broke the law and mucked about with a country which really should just be left alone.

This is assuming they are guilty. If not, the United States should do everything in its power to get them back.

On a similar topic, I've been curious... does anybody know (as much as can be with North Korea's secretiveness :P) what is actually done at the North Korean labour camps? Whatever it is, it doesn't sound pretty.
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Napero
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:45 pm 
 

To lend some credibility to this thread, I wouldn't mind if someone posted a link or something about this incident. Otherwise, this is just speculation.

North Korea has the same rights to detain people as the USA, for example. I don't think everything the USA has done is even close to conforming to the international laws, and imagine catching a North Korean "spying" on something on your soil. It's not likely you'd just ship him back, so I'd say there's plenty of hypocricy here already.
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immortalshadow666
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:04 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
To lend some credibility to this thread, I wouldn't mind if someone posted a link or something about this incident. Otherwise, this is just speculation.

North Korea has the same rights to detain people as the USA, for example. I don't think everything the USA has done is even close to conforming to the international laws, and imagine catching a North Korean "spying" on something on your soil. It's not likely you'd just ship him back, so I'd say there's plenty of hypocricy here already.


Guantanamo Bay, for example?
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T51b
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:15 pm 
 

I honestly would not be surprised if they kidnapped them from across the border, it is not as if they do not have a history of that sort of thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Kore ... f_Japanese

Lil Kim probably wants to trade them for some electricity.


immortalshadow666 wrote:

On a similar topic, I've been curious... does anybody know (as much as can be with North Korea's secretiveness :P) what is actually done at the North Korean labour camps? Whatever it is, it doesn't sound pretty.


http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... tml?cat=47

Quote:
Escapees and survivors of the North Korean Prison Labor Camp system tell stories of abuse so horrible that it not only includes rape of prisoners, but forced abortions as a result of that rape. Filthy bacteria ridden water is provided to the prisoners, causing dysentery and other water-borne diseases. Food is supposedly scarcely provided so the detainees there have an incentive to work harder. Diseases native to North Korea include cholera, typhoid, malaria, tuberculosis, and Dengue Fever. Ebola is also a threat.



Despite the fact I would absolutely love to see troops go in and butcher the North Koreans, I do not think it is feasible. Not to say I do not think we could win a war with N. Korea. In all likelihood we would absolutely rape them in a conventional war.
The main issue being the catastrophic loss of civilian South Korean life due to the absurd amount of artillery N.Korea has pointing at Seoul.

A wise admin on another forum I post at came up with a brilliant analogy that I think sums up N.Korea perfectly.

Quote:
North Korea is that crazy hobo you keep giving cheeseburgers so he won't stab you when you walk by him. There's only a tiny chance he'd nick you with his dirty hobo razor, but you feel safer for having placated him.

The downside is if he, despite being bat**** crazy, learns that threatening people to get cheeseburgers is a great way to avoid having to provide for himself, which is pretty much what happened to North Korea.

There'll be lots of negotiations that don't involve statements like "stop building bombs and we'll feed you" but that's really what it will amount to. North Korea might have decided that getting cheeseburgers was a low-ball offer and now it wants fries and a coke too, and in a year or two they'll probably get it.


Last edited by T51b on Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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kampfplatz666
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:05 pm 
 

Fifteen years in a concentration camp is clearly excesive for arriving illegaly to a country.

But what can you expect from communists?
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Last edited by kampfplatz666 on Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Napero
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:12 pm 
 

And still nobody has a link to any news on this or something?

Don't get your blood pressure up on nothing, people. Besides, people have been illegally jailed in Guantanamo for 7 years already, so I think they might be following the example set by USA, that's all.
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kampfplatz666
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:26 pm 
 

I got no links right now but the neutral data is:

* Two female periodists arrived illegally to North Korea.
* They were found, and condemned to 15 years of 'forced work', with the charges of spying for U.S.A.

It is too much I think.
I'm not into the 'axis of evil' thing, I think Iran has a great government, but North Korea is making statements concerning war with south korea and japan as an enemy.
They are going too far, but they don't got oil or gold or nothing in great cuantities, so U.S.A. doesn't need to wage war to 'bring democracy' over there...
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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:53 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
And still nobody has a link to any news on this or something?

Don't get your blood pressure up on nothing, people. Besides, people have been illegally jailed in Guantanamo for 7 years already, so I think they might be following the example set by USA, that's all.


http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... index.html

Well, T51B did put up a couple of links on the subject, one of them references the event in question. It would have been helpful if the OP had provided a link, but a simple Google search would confirm this, I found the CNN article in a mere 4 seconds. It's hard for me to really shed tears over these 2 women because they essentially got themselves in this situation. If you don't want your hand bitten off, don't reach into the tiger's cage.

Insofar as America's obvious hypocrisy and violations of international law go, agreed. However, I find it curious that anyone who holds human rights in high regard would leave a post open to the potential interpretation that one nation's abuse of international law would excuse that of another. Does the person wrongly imprisoned suffer less pain if the country he or she comes from regularly violates the Geneva Convention?
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joelc
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Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 4:03 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:34 pm 
 

heavymetalbackwards wrote:
Bobby_Typhoon wrote:
For those of you who havn't been following this story I will give a brief run down.

On March 17, 2009 two American journalists were kidnapped by the N. Korean government for what they're calling a "grave crime". The two women we're sentenced Monday to 12 years in prison.

Not only are they going to prison, but they're going to a hard labor prison. N. Korea is infamous for their prison system. One in which 20%-25% of prisoners die a year.

Normally I am not one for drastic action, or prone to a John Wayne style rescue with guns a blazin' but this has me extremely riled up. The N. Koreans have no proof of the journalists doing anything wrong, and if they did have proof, they most likely wouldn't show it.

I think the Special Forces or Green Berets or whoever should just go in there and rescue them. Granted that would most likely lead to casualties, and even farther strained relations, but I really don't think we should sit here with thumbs up our asses.

I don't know...what are your opinions?


Assuming the journalists were there completely legally, we need to take violent actions in order to bring our innocent citizens home. Try to discuss things first, but I doubt it will work. I hate North Korea.


Are they there legally? According to our countries, journalists have a right to be wherever they want to be... with a few minor exceptions. According to North-Korea, they don't have the right to be anywhere. So, who do you ask if they were there "legally"?

Violent actions, not likely... North-Korea is an army in an of itself... it is nothing but an army, it fail at everything else but it have the fourth largest army.

Strategically, I say you starve them out until they rebel against their government and Korea become ONE country once again. That's already the strategy, but you can also facilitate escaping the country... Remove the young men... The only way to break this government is to make it collapse from within and the population to go into uprising-mode, including the zombies in the army.

Many journalists have took a gamble reporting on the border, reporting covertly from within, etc... This is a country the west is not friendly with at all. It's a risk to go report from there and there is no "legal" way to do it. It's sad they were taken, but the cost related to freeing them would be in the thousands of lives and the billions of dollars.

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Avaddons_blood
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:47 am 
 

joelc wrote:
Strategically, I say you starve them out until they rebel against their government and Korea become ONE country once again. That's already the strategy


China is North Korea's most valuable trading partner. They even trade at "friendly prices" with North Korea and also gives food aid. Believe it or not South Korea is one of the largest donors of food to North Korea.

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giventotherising
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:54 am 
 

Looking at that CNN link above it seems that it is far from likely they will spend much time there.

I did just stumble across this.. seems rather depressing to say the least.

http://www.korea-dpr.com/reunification.htm

Though shit.. I would love to visit a place like that. It must be like another world. Like going back to Stalin's Russia.

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immortalshadow666
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:58 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:37 am 
 

T51b wrote:
Link that answered my question


Wow... that's indescribable really. Makes one take a look around and be grateful for what they have.
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Astrum502
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:35 am 
 

I happen to like N.Korea, and I understand where they are coming from. The US is always bullying and making threats to them, they feel they need to be able to protect themselves. I mean the US and it's lackys are pushing N. Korea in a corner, and taunting them, almost like they are wanting to start a war. The US has more nuclear stockpiles than anyone, and the only nation have used them. We enter and attack other nations all the time. N.Korea needs a nuclear deterrent. When the US disables all it's nuclear weapons and closes down all it's nuclear plants, then I will join the side against N.Korea and Iran. But the reason the US is so big is because of it's military and nuclear power. I hope the US does not provoke a war with N.Korea, because the people that will suffer and die, will not be the US people, it will be Japan and S.Korea. Leave them alone, and stop harrasing them. There seems some secret motive behind this action. I thought Obama was supposed to be different than Bush, but he's sabre rattling and being beligerant just as much. As to the journalists, they were there on a smear campaign against N.Korea. If they didn't want to risk being caught, then they should have stayed home. And if that one woman has a child and an ulcer, what is she doing out there anyway?
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Bezerko
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:45 am 
 

Are you insane Astrum502? The only reason North Korea pushes this crap is too get more concessions from the West in terms of food and other aid: Which they need because their idiotic policies (i.e. military above all) continue to cause shortages of food and other essential items within the country. I have absolutely no sympathy for North Korea.

It also seems as if the U.S. government has finally (hooray) started to get sick of North Korea's charades. Something, hell, anything, needs to be done about that country. Heck, it seems as if even China's patience with the place is wearing thin - and that's saying something.

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heavymetalbackwards
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:49 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:14 am 
 

Astrum502 wrote:
The US is always bullying and making threats to them, they feel they need to be able to protect themselves.


The more America "bullies" countries like N. Korea, the more proud I am to be an American.

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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:53 am 
 

Astrum502 wrote:
I happen to like N.Korea, and I understand where they are coming from. The US is always bullying and making threats to them, they feel they need to be able to protect themselves. I mean the US and it's lackys are pushing N. Korea in a corner, and taunting them, almost like they are wanting to start a war. The US has more nuclear stockpiles than anyone, and the only nation have used them. We enter and attack other nations all the time. N.Korea needs a nuclear deterrent. When the US disables all it's nuclear weapons and closes down all it's nuclear plants, then I will join the side against N.Korea and Iran. But the reason the US is so big is because of it's military and nuclear power. I hope the US does not provoke a war with N.Korea, because the people that will suffer and die, will not be the US people, it will be Japan and S.Korea. Leave them alone, and stop harrasing them. There seems some secret motive behind this action. I thought Obama was supposed to be different than Bush, but he's sabre rattling and being beligerant just as much. As to the journalists, they were there on a smear campaign against N.Korea. If they didn't want to risk being caught, then they should have stayed home. And if that one woman has a child and an ulcer, what is she doing out there anyway?


I agree with almost everything you've posted here except for North Korea needing a nuclear deterrent. No one needs a nuclear deterrent. The fact that the bomb was ever created is a blight on the alleged greatness of humanity, and every nation on the planet would do well to convert every nuclear bomb they have into something more useful, such as for a power plant. Unfortunately this won't happen because too many people in government and in the voting public of various nations see having a lot of nukes and a massive military as similar to having a large set of balls.
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KarmaLord
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:30 pm 
 

heavymetalbackwards wrote:
Astrum502 wrote:
The US is always bullying and making threats to them, they feel they need to be able to protect themselves.


The more America "bullies" countries like N. Korea, the more proud I am to be an American.

Er...no comment.

hells_unicorn wrote:
I agree with almost everything you've posted here except for North Korea needing a nuclear deterrent. No one needs a nuclear deterrent. The fact that the bomb was ever created is a blight on the alleged greatness of humanity, and every nation on the planet would do well to convert every nuclear bomb they have into something more useful, such as for a power plant. Unfortunately this won't happen because too many people in government and in the voting public of various nations see having a lot of nukes and a massive military as similar to having a large set of balls.

Not to mention our (U.S.A.) having used it. Apparently nobody's heard of "the pen is mightier than the sword."
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~Guest 19003
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:17 pm 
 

no post


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MaDTransilvanian
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:17 pm 
 

swineeyedlamb wrote:
The Russian sub that sank in 1999(?) was destroyed by Americans, and this was covered up by Putin; Russian acquiescence prevented a breakdown in relations.


Where the hell did you dig up that the Kursk was sunk by the Americans...? You shouldn't mistake unfounded conspiracy theories with historical events.
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TheUglySoldier
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:45 am 
 

potassium_cianide wrote:
Usually, when someone is illegal (or doing something illegal) in another country, shouldn't this country arrest the person and then extradite him/her? So I think that the single fact of N. Korea arresting the journalists and taking them to a forced labor field breaks international laws, right?


Not exactly. Extradition is more likely in the case of someone breaking the laws of their home country in another country, or someone wanted for drug crimes going overseas then being Extradited. That kind of thing.

N. Korea arresting people in their own country for breaking their own laws and putting them into their own legal system and forms of punishment is perfectly acceptable by international law due to the Right of Sovereignty.
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VRR
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:06 am 
 

TheUglySoldier wrote:
potassium_cianide wrote:
Usually, when someone is illegal (or doing something illegal) in another country, shouldn't this country arrest the person and then extradite him/her? So I think that the single fact of N. Korea arresting the journalists and taking them to a forced labor field breaks international laws, right?


Not exactly. Extradition is more likely in the case of someone breaking the laws of their home country in another country, or someone wanted for drug crimes going overseas then being Extradited. That kind of thing.

N. Korea arresting people in their own country for breaking their own laws and putting them into their own legal system and forms of punishment is perfectly acceptable by international law due to the Right of Sovereignty.


No, there are no legal precedents for extradition - the whole thing takes place in the diplomatic marketplace. So Brits, French or Americans (or any of the "top table" nuclear countries) will usually get extradition treaties with any other country. This is why western drug runners usually end up serving their sentences in their own country, and almost never get executed. There is nothing concrete or honest about extraditions - it is all about diplomatic bullying.

@potassium_cianide: the fact that western journos are banned from N Korea means that Kim Jong is more than entitled to arrest them - as soon as they set foot in the country they are criminals. It is then his choice to punish them with native law, or ship them back to the US, which is obviously something he would never choose to do.

Of course - North Korea has no diplomatic ties with any western nation, so there is no chance of going down that route.

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Avaddons_blood
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:23 am 
 

Astrum502 wrote:
I happen to like N.Korea, and I understand where they are coming from.


What is your favorite part of abhorrent oppression and brainwashing? Oh, btw.. there is no they, only him.

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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:49 pm 
 

Avaddons_blood wrote:
Astrum502 wrote:
I happen to like N.Korea, and I understand where they are coming from.


What is your favorite part of abhorrent oppression and brainwashing? Oh, btw.. there is no they, only him.


For some reason I missed this part of his post. The fact that anyone can claim to like North Korea as it exists is perplexing. I can understand viewing America's policy as being extremely wrong, but this does not necessitate any adversary of it right, most particularly the one in question.
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R.I.P. Ronnie James Dio (July 14, 1942 - May 16, 2010)

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Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:28 pm 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
[The fact that anyone can claim to like North Korea as it exists is perplexing.

Maybe they take pleasure in the suffering of others.
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MaDTransilvanian
Caravan Beyond Redemption

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 3789
Location: Romania
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:34 pm 
 

North Korea is like the U.S.S.R. of 1950 that never ended. And even there it's actually worse than the U.S.S.R. back then, as there were some armed partisan (Forest Brothers) still active during the period.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:43 pm 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
The fact that anyone can claim to like North Korea as it exists is perplexing.

I was about to agree, and then saw the nickname and figured it's impossible, I never agree with hells_unicorn... ;)


...then I found a way to disagree: it's not merely perplexing, it's actually mind-boggling.

In all seriousness, no amount of irrational hatred towards the USA could possibly justify a defense of North Korea. It's quite possibly the biggest shithole on the planet.

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MaDTransilvanian
Caravan Beyond Redemption

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 3789
Location: Romania
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:52 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
It's quite possibly the biggest shithole on the planet.


Somalia gives them some pretty stiff competition. What they lack in totalitarianism they more than make up in mutilating people's genitals irrespective of gender and in fighting several civil wars at a time.
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Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4563
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:56 pm 
 

MaDTransilvanian wrote:
North Korea is like the U.S.S.R. of late 1930-ies that never ended.

Fixed for accuracy.
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Avaddons_blood
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:23 am
Posts: 2469
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:17 pm 
 

MaDTransilvanian wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
It's quite possibly the biggest shithole on the planet.


Somalia gives them some pretty stiff competition.


I was amazed to find Somalia only ranks # 21st in death rates by country and has a life expectancy of almost 50. Compare that to Swaziland which has a life expectancy of 31.

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Singularity
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 10:17 pm
Posts: 379
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:23 pm 
 

Avaddons_blood wrote:
MaDTransilvanian wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
It's quite possibly the biggest shithole on the planet.


Somalia gives them some pretty stiff competition.


I was amazed to find Somalia only ranks # 21st in death rates by country and has a life expectancy of almost 50. Compare that to Swaziland which has a life expectancy of 31.

Since there is no real governmental presence in public affairs or maintenance of law on order, the statistics for Somalia are at best, unreliable and at worst, completely arbitrary.

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Avaddons_blood
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:23 am
Posts: 2469
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:54 pm 
 

Singularity wrote:
Avaddons_blood wrote:
MaDTransilvanian wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
It's quite possibly the biggest shithole on the planet.


Somalia gives them some pretty stiff competition.


I was amazed to find Somalia only ranks # 21st in death rates by country and has a life expectancy of almost 50. Compare that to Swaziland which has a life expectancy of 31.

Since there is no real governmental presence in public affairs or maintenance of law on order, the statistics for Somalia are at best, unreliable and at worst, completely arbitrary.


Depends how much you trust CIA research.

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MaDTransilvanian
Caravan Beyond Redemption

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:56 pm
Posts: 3789
Location: Romania
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:13 pm 
 

Catachthonian wrote:
MaDTransilvanian wrote:
North Korea is like the U.S.S.R. of late 1930-ies that never ended.

Fixed for accuracy.


Oh yes I forgot about the famines. But the arbitrary shooting of Red Army (Korean People's Army) officers isn't really something that Korea does to its own army, at least not to my knowledge.

Either way, I just said 1950 because of Uncle Joe's soon-to-be-over rule. Anytime between that (save perhaps the war) and the mid-1920s works.
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Singularity
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 10:17 pm
Posts: 379
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:32 am 
 

Journalists have been released by North Korean leadership and returned to the US after a private visit by Bill Clinton.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/06/world/asia/06korea.html?ref=us
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8185260.stm

Appears as if the whole arrest and subsequent pardon was an attempt by North Korea to gain some international sympathy and/or diplomatic and strategic manoeuvre to bargain concessions on other issues like nuclear tests. It is also becoming clear that their release was already conveyed to the US officials before Clinton's visit and Pyongyong had demanded a private visit by some top US diplomats.
Just look at how this conclusion colors the entire event in hindsight and how markedly different it is from our earlier perception of what was going on. You have to admire the power of information manipulation by the powers that be and its effect on everyone.

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