America: Neo-Roman Empire, Greatest Country on Earth or World bully?

Do you guys like America, or do you hate us?

Discuss this issue, but be civil. Don't spout off useless bullshit unless you can back it up with cold hard FACT; I'd like this to be one of the few surviving Political threads that are on track and aren't trolled.

Yes, it's clear that George Bush isn't the smartest President we've had, so leave your Anti-Bush slogans at home. This is about foreign views and the Foreign Relations that our Country has with all of yours.

Also, when sharing your opinion, don't just share yours, but share the majority of views that your country as a whole has towards America.

Simplistically, I'd say my home country Malaysia doesn't think much of you. There's always a bit of the anti-American sentiment there, more to do with your (perceived?) support of Israel more than anything else. Muslim Brotherhood 4eva and all that sort of thing. Also, we kinda bear a grudge against Mr George Soros for causing the 1997 economic crisis, but that's nothing to do with the government of the US.

Here in the UK, I get the feeling that the Brits are quite tired of being seen as the US' little brother. It's felt that the UK's unquestioning support of the US in Iraq caused 7/7. They were pretty tired of Blair's bullshit as well (anyone who spouts god that often pretty much gets a low mark in the press here).

Me, personally I can't hate the Americans, why the fuck would I. I've never been there, and most Americans I've met are nice (if a bit dense) people. I think your president is an ignorant biblebashing hypocritical twat, and of course, you'll get the old chestnut of how you managed to vote him in the second time. But I refuse to let that colour my views of America as a whole. I'd love to go there some day actually.

I think Australia is much the same as UK in being that people here get sick of the 'little brother' thing and the general populace question the need to continually follow the US on most subjects.

I tend to look at it more realistically (as opposed to Idealistically), fact of the matter is that a trillion dollar economy with such vast resources is always going to be a (if not The) leader of the Western world so any g'ment who doesn't fall in line to some degree would eventually do their own people a disservice.

On 'the people', I do find Americans somewhat ignorant to the rest of the worlds cultures but generally very nice and hospitable people. Many a year ago (and many kilos/pounds less!) I toured the eastern seaboard with an Australian basketball team for a month that got billeted out to peoples homes....one of the best experience of my life really, so many nice families!
At every school we played at had to go into a different class room and play Q and A with the American kids...got asked some pretty hilarious questions like:
"Do you actually ride in Kangaroo pouches?"
"Do you have Sheep?"
"Is anything upside down cos like, you're in the southern bit of the world?"

To be fair the rest of the class usually groaned at the questions.

Back on topic, I do worry about how heavily the USA seems from an outsiders point of view to be weighing in so heavily on the zealous side of Religion....is it an exaggeration that "the bible belt" is becoming "the bible country?"
I really hope so.

Nightgaunt has a new target.

Now, I think (to the op) that America is all three you listed. Its inevitable if you look back at the fall of rome (you can wiki it) we will probably fall the same way. It won't be with shutting off water, but it will be gradual unless something changes.

I agree with pretty much everything. I have been calling Australians out for being the just another state of the US for ages. And being a smaller country in military might and economic prowess compared to the US isn't really a good excuse to follow them into war considering that New Zealand, an even smaller country, basically told them to fuck off.

From personal experience of being in New York and LA as a tourist, I can attest to the higher level of ignorance for international events and culture compared to other cities like Tokyo, Hong Kong and Beijing. I also had a very uneasy feeling most of the time as if I would get physically assaulted if I expressed my true views. I rarely get that when in Australia and New Zealand.

Oh, and in New York, I nearly got into a fist fight. I was late for something and was running through a gap between a lamp post and rubbish bin. I was already halfway through when a black guy a couple of inches shorter than me rammed me right back through the gap. I was about to say something when I got interrupted with "Fuck You! What the fuck do you think you are doing!" followed by a really hard shove. I used to play a bit of rugby, so the shove didn't really do much, but it felt like he was trying to push me over. I was stunned because this sort of stuff hasn't happened to me since High School. I said "Sorry mate, didn't mean to run into you". He probably took me for a tourist and just walked off, cursing a bit under his breathe.

Sad that this is pretty much the most memorable thing I came away with from my US trip...

As an American (by birth, not mentality) I would like to present this point-of-view:

I am generalizing here, but our national obsession with "me." Nobody ever thinks about "us" anymore. It's all about "me". "You" are on your own. "We" is a convenient umbrella for a collection of like minded "me's".

Were just spoiled little kids who never learned to share our toys and see nothing wrong with going to another kid on the block and taking their toys.

Last I knew, "America" wasn't only the United States.

I quite like United States, if any nation's going to be a Superpower I'd much rather it be the USA then, well, 90% of all the other countries out there.

I admit that America is a bit of an 'older brother' and I don't really see any problem with that. They're a good ally to have, no doubt. Sure, there are various parts of their laws and whatnot that I wouldn't want over here, but.. they're not over here, so why complain? And I can't complain much about the cultural influence, because Australia never really developed one of it's own anyway, and the few principles that are Australian- the underdog, egalatarianism or whatever it's called- are still pretty much there.

Furthermore, while I'm sure I could go on about "wahh uncultured americans" as many people enjoy doing, I haven't had any experience whatsoever with said uncultured americans, most americans I know are quite OK. I definitely get the feeling that the dumb American is about as common as the Internet Elitist that everyone whines about- neither of them really exist.

America is good- name a country that would make a better (and feasible) superpower. Go on.

Living in America I find it cocky and sure of itself, and useless when it comes to dealing with major problems. Seriously, everyone knows we can beat up some Iraqi's fighting each other more than us, but things like China's slow complete disregard for the U.N. policies is ignored by America because we depend on China too much. I find America the bullies of the world, and if not for my family I'd leave.

hahaha, new york and LA are the worst cities in the US. Well, LA is, I have never been to new york. but trust me, we Americans feel the same way about visiting new york or LA as you do.


oh, and fuck America, it can suck my nuts.

The proper term is gargle my balls thanks to wrath of war.

Yeah, America are totally bullies of the world. They're constantly - CONSTANTLY! - threatening lots and lots of other countries. If they're not invading a random country (chosen completely arbitrarily) then they're imposing sanctions on heaps of them. They're always demanding money and tribute off other nations.

I know that's a bit of a strawman, but still, "The Bullies of the World"? How about China? North Korea or Iran? I certainly don't see America testing Nuclear Missiles to scare its' neighbours. I don't see Bush stating in an address "Israel should be wiped off the Earth".

Why do they allow 15 year olds on the internet.

As an American, I entirely agree. I cannot bring myself to loathe a single people or nation of peoples, unless it were to consist of only a small group of people with whom my grudge would be certain, rather than some generalized, nationalistic bullshit. Even with countries that produce some of the most vile people, I do not hate all people therein.

Many Americans are uncultured, but like most simplistic stereotypes, this one fails to inform. Large numbers of people from all countries are stupid, uncultured, and unpleasant: informing us that USAmerica possesses such people is usually irrelevant to any sort of sociopolitical argumentation.

True, but America's supposed elites tend to have shockingly vulgar taste. Children of the rich are, by and large, fed on the same cultural diet of shit as plebes; with each generation high Western tradition is eroded.

"your from New Zealand? do you know John? he lives there too!"

as an American I just wish the people and the government would focus more on the US's internal problems before attempting to solve foreign issues. We've got enough problems as it is, most notably the economy and as apathy increases in the population, we'll continue to elect poor candidates to continue the downward spiral except they'd deceive the sheep into thinking they're doing more good than harm.

Exactly what are you defining as 'elite', though? Monetary wealth or something else? It seems like you're basing this off Paris Hilton and maybe a few other rich brats, but can you say with confidence that most of the rich kids of these media moguls, business empires etc are like that? I would say that they probably aren't, but you don't really hear much about them, because obviously that doesn't make very good news.

I don't really know if the "bible belt" is turning into "bible country", as I live deep in the bible belt myself and can't really see it from the outside.

To be honest I'm very disappointed in my country, mostly because so many are apathetic. My generation is so focused on their own little realm of existence and generally unaware of anything in the world other than their day-to-day lives, I fear that the situation will only get worse. I don't hate my country, I just see rocky times ahead, and it's disappointing. We'll keep electing shitty politicians and being obsessed over the latest britney scandal. I'm just glad the federal government with its immense power is mostly free from religious influence, at least for the foreseeable future.

From my experience, nobody here cares much what goes on in the world. I don't know if it's the "we're america, we're the best, we don't have to care" or if it's simply self-centered lifestyles, but practically nobody I know even keeps up with national events, let alone international happenings. That's not to say there aren't people here that care- I, for one, as well as my girlfriend do, and I've talked to some others. But on the majority there is a large ignorance of events that don't directly impact life around here.

As far as being dumb goes, I think that's a silly argument based on nothing. There are plenty of stupid people here, sure; but stupid people are everywhere. When you marginalize an entire group (one made up of many peoples and cultures) you are both doing them and yourself a disservice.

yeah I hate it when people use America to refer to the United States, though I guess since there's so many people from North, Central, and South America living in the United States so I guess if you use it like that it's ok.

I don't much care for many countries. Most of the Americans I've met have been very nice, but I have also encountered my fair share of the stereotypical gun-totin', Arab-hatin', flag-lovin', pie-eatin' yanks.

This is all most likely the result of being the most powerful country in the world. You get a lot of arrogant idiots who think they live at the center of the universe. These guys are largely a minority, though, so I don't really have anything for or against American people.

As for the country itself, well, it would be nice if they stopped trying to police the world so much, but I don't really care. I wish Australia would stop trying to be Li'l America.

Let's put it this way: I would never even remotely think of moving in the U.S.
Socially speaking, it's far behind any Western Europe country.

An insignificant (in the grand scheme of things) but terminally irritating problem is self-righteousness. The often mentioned passport thing, along with constant unsourced proclamations spouting feel-good rhetoric about "freest country in the world", "best justice system in the world". My arse it is - it's this lack of respect for (or even knowledge of) other developed nations which breeds resentment.

A primary problem is not its control over world affairs (which will wane significantly in the next 50 years anyway), but the wrong-headed manner in which it is done - the intellectual justifications and ideologies behind it. What this has done to the planet is one of the most well-reported subjects in history, so that part is pointless to even detail, but the root cause of it "at home" is worth a look. The US is perhaps the most politically undeveloped country in the Anglosphere and Eurosphere. Presidential elections are to some quite large extent "bought" (and the regulation for donations is woeful), and quite remarkably blinkered comments "proving" the openness of the governmental system (for example pointing out Obama's roots) at the same time completely ignores that people like him are exceptions to the rule. The unbreakable two party borderline aristocratic hegemony looks even more weird from a European POV, for example, due to the almost total lack of proportional representation in national government.

I read a satirical comment somewhere about one popular strain of US conservatism, to paraphrase: "The US finds its form of democracy to be so great that it thinks it must be spread throughout the world. Yet at home their distrust of their own government has caused the systematic deconstruction or watered-down creation of institutions to the point of total dysfunctionality".

An example could be made of the bizarre healthcare system. It leaves some people unable to pay for it (not just "lazy immigrants - young people native to the US), in some cases border-hopping to Canada for treatment. This much vaunted "private healthcare" system, which is supposedly a great example of small government, can't even stand up on its own - the US government has to pay over half of the cost of private healthcare that employers are supposed to pay for with their healthcare plans. Those plans are not even guaranteed to people who do have jobs if they have the misfortune of not being in ideal health when assessed - and for those who do get it, it is often inadequate. It's at once callous, yet can't even claim to be efficient. It takes the worst from both worlds. The Medicare and Medicaid systems in particular also fly in the face of this supposed small-government scheme of private healthcare. They are bureaucratic monsters and consume vast amounts of money. Add to this surprisingly low life expectancy and high infant mortality rates, there is something wrong with the entire concept. [There is a decent post on the subject by a person whose opinion I respect greatly in this thread.]

While the United States, like any other country, is free to fuck up their own affairs as much as they wish, no country other than the US can attempt to pull this off while attempting to set "examples" for undeveloped nations - which probably explains the empty rhetoric about greatness and freedom - to hide how things really are. Unfortunately it seems that not many countries are buying it anymore.

Edit: I should add to pre-empt any comments I wish wouldn't happen, but no doubt might. No, I am not "anti-US", I find the place beautiful, interesting, and has produced useful things far in excess of any single European nation, due to the large population and to some extent the enlightened support of science and industry. But this I don't find it superior politically or socially to almost any European nation, I'd rate them roughly equally.


Last I knew the "British Isles" housed Ireland. Words don't have to be accurate, they have to be useful.

Hmm, I probably shouldn't do this, but a few more angles that have not been presented yet:

I find it unbelieveable how badly the current US president and government have been able to screw up the immense goodwill the USA got after the 9/11 incident. I personally remember thinking that now the USA can do a few things they really need to do to clean a few rotten corners of the Earth, and put an end to a few irritating things going on in the Middle East. I didn't oppose the FIRST Gulf War by Bush Senior, and he had the sense to stop at the right time. The attack on Afghanistan was OK in my eyes, too, and could perhaps have done some good to the people there (not taking into account that not everybody wants to be free in the western sense... but let's not go there here) in addition to going after some of the folks guilty of the terrorist attacks, but in the longer run, it has been fucked up, too. But once the talk about invading Iraq surfaced, and the US kept pushing the agenda regardless of evidence (no WMDs, no terrorist connections), sensibility (replacing the only really secular government in the Middle East is insanity, no matter how crazy Saddam might have seemed), and the obvious consequences (anybody with half a brain knew that the current situation would be the result), trying to downplay the fact that oil is a factor, the goodwill was exhausted very quickly. I dislike the policies, even if they might have benefitted me personally by keeping the price of oil lower for a little while longer. And, let's say it aloud, there's still no sign of a massive attack on Saudi Arabia, nor any kind of sanctions against them, and most of the 9/11 terrorists were from there. Double standards, anyone?

The financial issues are another matter that disturbs me a lot. Counting in the worldwide shortage of oil that will be hitting us hard during the next decade, adding to it the fact that China and India will compete for the same crude with incresing needs, means that the unbelievable budget deficit the USA is building right now will change the balance of power sooner than you'd think. Russia, with pretty nice oil reserves, China and India, and perhaps a few other nations, will gain power, and the US will face hard times in the future. How difficult? That remains to be seen, but pessimism is sensible, so prepare for a big overhaul of the world's financial system and a bunch of oil new wars.

Environmental and religious issues, my favourite ranting subjects, are another matter. The western world has no moral right to ask China to stop building coal power stations after the US practically killed the Kyoto treaty, and such things as creationism in the increasingly secular world are really strange entities and paint the US in an ominous light. Instead of showing the rest of the world the way to an environmental way of life like the champions of the free world, the USA decided to keep their old ways, some of which are obviously doomed in the long run. Looking from the outside, it seems incredible and rather scary that the people in the USA decide on which candidate they wish to become the keeper of the Big Button by asking them if they believe abortion should be legal or if they believe the world is over 6000 years old.

I would not travel to the USA at the present time; if a country wants my fingerprints on the border, as if expecting me to be a criminal, they can keep their freedom. That's a minor issue, of course, but as a symptom of something deeper, it's a nice warning sign.

I've never met a US citizen I didn't like (although it must be noted that I like most people), so perhaps we can misquote the Men in Black: Individual Americans are intelligent and nice people, but 200 million of them in the same place turn them into something else. In other words, I may dislike your country's policies and international image, but that doesn't mean I dislike you personally.

The tree has been hugged, and both it and Napero can now continue their daily business of photosynthesis and office work, respectively. Thank you, you have been a wonderful audience, see you in the torture thread in a few hours, if it's still alive at that time.

Here in Belgium most people consider the Americans ignorant and extremely stupid. The law suits and all that get ridiculised very often and whenever somebody says something stupid about geography or culture, jokes about Americans are bound to happen. I hear jokes about how Americans are so chauvinistic at least once every day ("God bless America." "This is why this country is so great." "Freedom." etc.). Another issue that gets laughed at a lot is that Americans don't know any other languages, think they own the world, ...

I don't agree with these things, except that I think it's true that there's a higher percentage of ignorant people there than in other western countries. Oh and I love wave-flagging idiots, because they're a great source for hilarity. Other than that, I don't have a problem with Americans and I think a lot of the prejudices the rest of the world has are ridiculous.

Get out.

In the case of America money = elite. Anecdotally, I can say that most rich kids aspire to more-or-less the same vulgarities as the mean of the country. Genuinely intellectual families aren't easy to find here, at least outside of the northeast. Compared to Europe, pure sciences and high art are held in exceptionally low esteem.

Because trying to refute his argument with an argument of your own is too much like hard work, yes?

American people seem extraordinarily stupid when seen on the news or videos on the internet, but these things tend to present an extraordinarily skewed picture in the first place. The Americans I've met all seem like nice people, though the two I've slept with are like bags of potatoes (in more ways than one). I don't really get this whole "We're Irish!" thing a lot of Americans in the North-East have going on either.

But my main gripe is - like many others - with your government. Refusing to sign up to the Kyoto Protocol was one bad mark against your name, but rejection of or failure to ratify myriad other environmental treaties really annoys me - of course, Australia are in a similar boat in not signing or ratifying treaties. It's quite frustrating. I'm not too sure on Australia's reasons, but often it seems that the USA is worried about protecting its interests and trade to an extent of paranoia. It doesn't help when you have the likes of Bonner Cohen writing pseudo-science on why the UNCLOS is out to get the USA, and how (in a paper sponsored by Exxon-Mobil) emissions from crude oil burning have no environmental impact whatsoever (despite however many peer-reviewed papers say the exact opposite).

The most Irish thing most of those people had in common was funding the IRA.


From what I've seen the Australian postion was "oh yeah bs" swiftly followed by "oh shit our country is getting severely mangled by what seems like climate change, our bad"

Hole in the Ozone layer, mate? Nahh, it's just that we're literally 22 inches from the sun!

Of course, Australians call it XXXX because they can't fucking spell 'Beer.'

I guess one gripe I have with America- and something that I think sums up most of the other people's issues here- is that overall the country concedes far too much to big business. Whereas things such as Unions, Minimum Wages and things like that here are strictly enforced and rights are encouraged, many people over here see America as a place were Employees have few rights, where the poor get screwed on Healthcare, (here, public Healthcare is available to everyone, and while private is better it's still of a good quality) and basically where the government gives to the rich and takes from the poor, and makes ridiculous concessions to big business at the expense of the average working person.

Obviously this concession affects the country in various ways, most of which aren't good. To quote dfl: "often it seems that the USA is worried about protecting its interests and trade to an extent of paranoia."

I shared my toys. The kids who didn't, had bad parents, and there are a lot of bad parents in America (just as there are in other countries).

Anyway, I have seen that several people on here think that Americans are selfish and only think of themselves. I know a lot of them are. However, the United States is the most charitable country in the world. My fiancee is an officer in a college organization that gives money to Ugandan children. We have both been contributing to this organization for years. So have our families and friends.

I know this isn't amazing and great, but I still think it's good that many American's help like this.

That's a big, big call. Got any proof of that?





That's anecdotal evidence, it means nothing.

It does seem like Americans are more used to fund-raising, but the problem is, a lot of the donated cash goes to things that European model governments would fund anyway (eg. the arts, social welfare).

I just found the links below on the internet. It seems valid, but who knows.

http://www.thenewsbuckit.com/2007/06/un ... untry.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo ... _countries

My problem with this country is the complete lack of any cohesive element to our society. We try and try with patriotism but it's shallow and commercial. The problem is that we're such a stew. Buying a few cheap flags never does the rick when the culture itself is inherently divisive.

On that note, is it any wonder that we are so uneducated? Education works like health care: the ones that can pay for it get it, the ones that can't don't. Neither the government nor the buisiness power elite in this country have anything to gain from an educated or healthy populace. We're mechanical. Our citizens are as replaceable as piston rods.

But that right there is another problem I have with Americans: no ability to help ourselves. If your school was shit, get off your ass and go to the library! With the Internet, you don't even need to do that much anymore. Yes, the healthcare thing sucks, as does most Americans' dwindling disposable income, but a great deal can be accomplished with simple self-sufficience and tenacity.

Hehe, ditto with the UK to some extent, although I notice that the US's attempt to "force" cohesion works better than the latter, which is factional to the extreme (sort of like the US's "north"/"south" thing, but heightened, and concentrated into within 1/25th of the area).

Yes, I hear the terrorists have their own neighborhoods over there. Boy, if that isn't a testament to the weakness of the West, I don't know what is.

Oh, terriorists are a minor problem, people just like to get hysterical over that stuff, it's the natives who are weird - seems to have always been this way, but has gotten worse over the past 20 years.

America has so much corruption yet so much beauty at the same time, which is why I find it so fascinating and plan to move there someday. And this is coming from someone born in the current country the American government & military are invading, so I guess that means something. Maybe.