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BeholdtheNicktopus
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Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:26 pm
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Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:37 pm 
 

Caspian, if you want to read Hegel's Phenomenology you ought to find a companion volume! Kojeve's "Introduction to the Reading of Hegel" is the most famous, and it is indeed pretty good.

Earthcubed: Jack Vance is the GOAT of sword and sorcery. Tales of the Dying Earth (esp. "The Eyes of the Overworld" imo) is my favorite fantasy of all time. Supremely witty.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:59 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
I don't know what you two are going on about. Granted, I've only read two of McCarthy's books but the thing that most stood out to me about his prose (other than never using quotation marks, ever) was its superfluidity, not its staccato. His aversion to commas seems nearly as total as his aversion to quotes, so his sentences tend to lack any implied pauses. They run, even when they're short.


Was one of those two The Road? That one definitely left me with a feeling that he was trying to use these super short, I guess I would call it staccato sentences (or fragments) in order to set the mood through the removal of the emotion that can come with longer, more fluid sentences. I'd say the style contrasted pretty strongly with Blood Meridian's much purpler, more Faulknerian style and seemed much more of a conscious departure rather than a gradual evolution, though of course I don't know that for sure since I haven't read anything that came between those two.
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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:54 am 
 

Yes, that was one of them. I suppose the sentences were shorter in that one than the other I've read (Outer Dark) but even his shorter sentences run. His only stop/start stuff that forces you to pause is dialogue.

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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:14 pm 
 

BeholdtheNicktopus wrote:
Earthcubed: Jack Vance is the GOAT of sword and sorcery. Tales of the Dying Earth (esp. "The Eyes of the Overworld" imo) is my favorite fantasy of all time. Supremely witty.


I'm reading it now; I started and finished The Dying Earth proper yesterday in a few hours. I must say I did not expect Clark Ashton Smith/Lin Carter-esque fantasy when I bought this compendium and it threw me off a bit, but I've gotten used to it, even if his prose is a bit clunky and/or over-stylized at times.* The work shows great imagination if nothing else; I will definitely buy some of his other work that I know is held in higher esteem around here like the Demon Princes and Alastor books.



*"Solemnize the connubiality" has to be the most awkward and unintentionally funny way of saying "let's fuck" ever put to paper.

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Jonpo
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:36 pm 
 

Vance is easily my favorite writer of all time but calling that stuff sword and sorcery is off-base I think.
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~Guest 21181
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:33 pm 
 

I'm not super familiar with sword and sorcery but that seems to be the best fit for this book so far, based on my understanding of the genre. It's certainly not science fiction or Tolkien-esque epic fantasy.

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:12 pm 
 

Do you really think Jack Vance is ever unintentionally funny?
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:15 pm 
 

I got a real kick out of the Demon Princes books. Nice, punchy fun. Very direct and yet also imaginative as hell.

Bruce Dickinson's autobiography is great fun. Really inspiring to see how he got where he is, actually. And cool to read about the makings of all their classics. He's a really solid writer and keeps you engaged and doesn't come off as some kind of vapid asshole.
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BeholdtheNicktopus
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:52 pm 
 

My favorite Vancian line: "Stop, I do not care to hear you speak, for obloquy injures my self-esteem and I am skeptical of praise." Ha!

I would, though, definitely call Tales of the Dying Earth a kind of sword and sorcery. It has the episodic, premise-heavy encounters (probably the most important non-thematic trope); the lack of epic good-versus-evil quests and focus on small-scale ambiguities; bizarre magic and sorcerous characters always causing trouble; the lone (anti)hero, and so on.

Now, a lot of S&S overlaps with heroic fantasy and those tropes (Conan), while Dying Earth does not so much. But the lineage is so obvious from Conan to like... Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, to guys like Moorcock and Vance. I might even say it's a shorter step from Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser (paradigmatic S&S) to The Eyes of the Overworld than it is from Conan to Fafhrd. Or it seems so to me. I mean even Conan had some of the weirdo sci-fi elements that Vance employs. Of course Vance is writing later and plays with the tropes more, specifically subverting the more heroic fantasy elements present in much S&S.

There may be other genre-terms for Dying Earth that also fit, of course. Maybe "post-S&S"? :P
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:21 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
I'm not super familiar with sword and sorcery but that seems to be the best fit for this book so far, based on my understanding of the genre. It's certainly not science fiction or Tolkien-esque epic fantasy.


He actually dipped into the high fantasy genre as well, with the Lyonesse trilogy. It's jaw-dropping. I would recommend reading any thing and everything you can get your hands on. I end up describing most of his works as sci-fantasy. There are some killer one-off novels that you shouldn't miss. Five Gold Bands is like a neo-noir space adventure full of over the top capers and hijinks. The Dragon Masters is pure fantasy, pulpy and easy to read. All of the Demon Prince series rules, but a few of them in particular represent some of his highest water marks. To Live Forever is a twisted sci fi tale with a mindfuck ending. Oh and did I mention he wrote mystery novels under various pennames? The only two I've found were both completely immersive page-turners.

To me, Sword & Sorcery conjures images of Conan and Kull and Fafhrd/Grey Mouser. The Dying Earth mostly follows the exploits of a COMPLETE shitbag as he schemes his way to "revenge". One of the best stories ever, just fairly light on the swordplay and even the magic has that special Vancian flavor.

Don't sleep on the Rhialto tales from Dying Earth. They aren't as epic as Cugels journey but they are laugh out loud funny.
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Waltz_of_Ghouls
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:58 pm 
 

All these posts about Blood Meridian convinced me to finally try it. I've heard about it before, either here or elsewhere and I decided to check the page on Wikipedia, avoiding everything about the actual story. The first few pages are a bit destabilizing, due to the way it's written, no quotes and all. Add to that that English is not my first language... but it looks promising enough. After the first chapter I'd say I'm hooked enough.
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PETERG
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:52 pm 
 

Ok so this is going to sound weird but I just started reading the Bible. I am reading the English King James Version (I also plan to read the Greek version as well ). I have read the first 150 pages (finished Genesis now on Exodus. I can say that there are a lot of great messages there but also some really fucked up things for example Genesis 13:19 where Abraham's daughter literally have sex with him in order for him to have a son. The only irritating about it is the length; more than 2000 pages...
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nekuomanteia
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:09 pm 
 

Anybody ever read Sound, Symbol, Sociality: The Aesthetic Experience of Extreme Metal Music by Matthew Unger? I haven't read it myself and was curious to know what others thought about it.
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CoconutBackwards
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:17 pm 
 

I couldn't withstand the hype for Blood Meridian any longer, so I picked it up over the weekend.

I've read a chapter or so and I'm enjoying it so far, but I am finding myself at times struggling to keep track of who's POV I'm reading from. Sometimes it seems to bounce back and forth without much explanation. Either that, or I'm just an idiot and not comprehending. I did get lost during the fight the Kid had outside the bar with some guy who wouldn't move out of his way and was then knocked out by a completely different person with a shillaleigh? Who the hell was that person?
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~Guest 171512
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:47 pm 
 

PETERG wrote:
Ok so this is going to sound weird but I just started reading the Bible. I am reading the English King James Version (I also plan to read the Greek version as well ). I have read the first 150 pages (finished Genesis now on Exodus. I can say that there are a lot of great messages there but also some really fucked up things for example Genesis 13:19 where Abraham's daughter literally have sex with him in order for him to have a son. The only irritating about it is the length; more than 2000 pages...


There's nothing weird about reading the Bible whatsoever. It is the cornerstone of Western literature, after all.

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StainedClass95
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:55 pm 
 

PETERG wrote:
Ok so this is going to sound weird but I just started reading the Bible. I am reading the English King James Version (I also plan to read the Greek version as well ). I have read the first 150 pages (finished Genesis now on Exodus. I can say that there are a lot of great messages there but also some really fucked up things for example Genesis 13:19 where Abraham's daughter literally have sex with him in order for him to have a son. The only irritating about it is the length; more than 2000 pages...


I remember opening my copy one right and randomly coming across the story of Lot and his daughters. Suffices to say, it was not what I expected.

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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:58 pm 
 

As a historically-important text, the Bible is absolutely fascinating. As a work of literature, it's mostly garbage with a few inspiring stories and bits of vivid poetry floating about.
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andersbang
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:25 pm 
 

CoconutBackwards wrote:
I couldn't withstand the hype for Blood Meridian any longer, so I picked it up over the weekend.

I've read a chapter or so and I'm enjoying it so far, but I am finding myself at times struggling to keep track of who's POV I'm reading from. Sometimes it seems to bounce back and forth without much explanation. Either that, or I'm just an idiot and not comprehending. I did get lost during the fight the Kid had outside the bar with some guy who wouldn't move out of his way and was then knocked out by a completely different person with a shillaleigh? Who the hell was that person?


Just some guy. Noone we know.

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InnesI
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:30 am 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
As a historically-important text, the Bible is absolutely fascinating. As a work of literature, it's mostly garbage with a few inspiring stories and bits of vivid poetry floating about.


I agree on this. I find few passages in the Bible that work great as literature especially compared to many other religious texts of the major religions. The Bhagavad Gita and the Quran are much easier reads for example. But it is such an interesting text in how it has effected our part of the world so much for so long.

I've read parts of the Bible here and there throughout the years but never the whole thing. A while ago I decided to listen to it as an audio book. I made it to 2 Samuel before I was interrupted with other readings. Haven't returned since, it is a chore to get through. Especially the parts of the tanach with all the rules are just hard to sit through. Interesting to reflect upon but not a very intriguing read.
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~Guest 74046
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:44 am 
 

Reading Pynchon's Vineland atm.

I could care less if it's not profound as Gravity's Rainbow, it's still entertaining and wild as anything Pynchon conceived. Harold Bloom and DFW can suck it.

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:43 pm 
 

I read my first Murakami book, Kafka on the Shore, which I really liked. Beautiful book. I hear that most of his books are all pretty much the same, but I imagine I'll get to a few others at some point.

Now I'm on a horror kick. I began with Laird Barron's Occultation collection. Been meaning to get around to him for a while. Overall I thought it was pretty great. A bit uneven as horror collections tend to be, but the good stories, like "The Broadsword" and "Mysterium Tremendum" were top-tier cosmic horror.

Now I'm reading The Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson, which seems cool so far.

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~Guest 74046
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:05 pm 
 

Just started Generosity by Richard Powers.

His name caught my eye due to comparisons to other high-brow, metafiction writers (Pynchon, Delillo, Vollmann) so I decided to check out his work this past month. Currently the 3rd book of his that I'm on.

Aaaandd it's really good shit. Such an underrated prose stylist; lyrical, obsessional and positively fucking rhapsodic. David Foster Wallace eat your heart out.

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Razakel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:27 am 
 

Rippingheadache wrote:
Just started Generosity by Richard Powers.

His name caught my eye due to comparisons to other high-brow, metafiction writers (Pynchon, Delillo, Vollmann) so I decided to check out his work this past month. Currently the 3rd book of his that I'm on.

Aaaandd it's really good shit. Such an underrated prose stylist; lyrical, obsessional and positively fucking rhapsodic. David Foster Wallace eat your heart out.


You might be interested in this interview with Richard Powers and DFW if you haven't heard it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5VlOOWf-Qk

I haven't read any Powers but I'd like to get around to him sometime soon. Gahhh Ithe literal pile of books next to my bed has been growing rather than diminishing lately.

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~Guest 74046
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:46 am 
 

I'll definitely give it a look! Thanks man.

I'm aware that DFW was an admirer of Power's fiction, so this would interesting to see if Powers has an opinion on his works, if any. And yeah, speaking of backlogs, I too have a crap-ton of books to catch up on. Just ordered the following...

Lost Empress - Sergio De La Pava
Novel Explosives - Jim Gauer
The Goldbug Variations - Richard Powers (supposedly the Moby Dick of his oeuvre, and one I've been meaning to read for ages now)
I Am Radar - Reif Larsen

Anyone who's into super dense, recondite novels a la Pynchon/Gaddis feel free to recommend books my way.

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~Guest 118084
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:06 pm 
 

I finished Anna Karenina a couple of weeks ago and now I'm thinking about reading A Raw Youth by Dostoyevsky. Damn, I really love Russian literature!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:18 pm 
 

Alright I'm going to start reading Nietzsche. Any suggestions on which of his novels to start with?

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~Guest 334273
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:41 pm 
 

TheConqueror1 wrote:
Alright I'm going to start reading Nietzsche. Any suggestions on which of his novels to start with?


On The Genealogy of Morality showcases all of his strenghts as a writer and is about a famous part of his philosophy, it's probably the best for starting out

Others i really liked where Twilight of the Idols and The Joyful Wisdom. The Birth of Tragedy is important but i've never been particulary a fan and Thus Spoke Zarathustra is still an enigma to me

As always with philosophy books i would suggest to familiarize a bit with the author with an handbook (even a school one) before reading, in particular with one with so many interpretations (and misinterpretations) as Nietzsche

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BeholdtheNicktopus
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:01 pm 
 

TheConqueror1 wrote:
Alright I'm going to start reading Nietzsche. Any suggestions on which of his novels to start with?


If you must read Nietzsche, I agree with Morn of Solace that "On the Genealogy of Morality" is probably the best full-length work to start with.

Although, the short essay "On Truth and Lying in a Non-Moral Sense" is a good way to just dip a single toe in.

I personally prefer "Philosophy in the Tragic Age of the Greeks" to pretty much anything else by him, but then I personally can hardly stand Nietzsche so take that with a grain of salt.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:18 am 
 

Understanding Nietzsche is damn near impossible. I guess I'll just read The Raw Youth by Dostoyevsky.

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Bates
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:51 am 
 

Just finished re-reading Dan Simmons' Olympos. Honestly, I found Ilium/Olympos to be the superior of his scifi series. Very similiar with it's weaving of other works, doesn't get quite as wibbbly-wobbly with explanations.
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:20 am 
 

TheConqueror1 wrote:
Alright I'm going to start reading Nietzsche. Any suggestions on which of his novels to start with?


Many people tend to recommend On The Genealogy of Morality (or Beyond Good and Evil). And not just here but in general. It was to long ago I read it so I can't quite remember how I felt about it. I did reread Thus Spoke Zarathustra over the summer though and I found it more impactful than I did the first time. I am one of those that like the grandiose style he uses there. But since it is layered in some sort of story it isn't as direct as some of his other work.

The easiest read might be the The Antichrist. He is very clear throughout that book and the ideas are simple enough to grasp. I think it's far from his best though.

If you are totally unfamiliar with Nietzsche it might be a good idea to purchase a book like Nietzsche the Key Concepts. A nice little volume that works as a philosophical encyclopaedia dealing with the main concepts of Nietzsche, what they mean, how they developed over time etc.
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~Guest 171512
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:31 pm 
 

If you're really curious about Nietzsche, by all means check him out, but don't expect to find enlightenment there. I found Thus Spake Zarathustra to be total nonsense, and The Antichrist nothing but incoherent ranting. That said, I did refer to The Birth of Tragedy in a college paper I once wrote, so I suppose he's not totally useless. I'll just say 'good luck'.

And just a quick note before I close: since I've made it no secret that I'm a Christian, some people may be inclined to think I dislike Nietzsche purely on that ground. Therefore, I'd like to clarify that I was far from Christian at the time I dabbled in this guy's writings. I honestly simply find them to be empty crap. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I fully endorse and recommend Thomas Aquinas. :)

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InnesI
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:35 pm 
 

Thiestru wrote:
If you're really curious about Nietzsche, by all means check him out, but don't expect to find enlightenment there. I found Thus Spake Zarathustra to be total nonsense, and The Antichrist nothing but incoherent ranting. That said, I did refer to The Birth of Tragedy in a college paper I once wrote, so I suppose he's not totally useless. I'll just say 'good luck'.

And just a quick note before I close: since I've made it no secret that I'm a Christian, some people may be inclined to think I dislike Nietzsche purely on that ground. Therefore, I'd like to clarify that I was far from Christian at the time I dabbled in this guy's writings. I honestly simply find them to be empty crap. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I fully endorse and recommend Thomas Aquinas. :)


Seems like a classic case of not agreeing with a philosopher and thus thinking his thought is worthless. One can say many things about Nietzsche but he's hardly incoherent and he's not really ranting either. Maybe you weren't mature enough to understand his wirings at the time if that is what you took away from from it? I find the same sort of attitude when I speak to people about Islam for example and they claim that the Quran is just rambling mumbo jumbo. It just shows that either they (a) haven't actually read the Quran or (b) didn't understand it.
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~Guest 171512
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:42 pm 
 

Haha, 'maybe you weren't mature enough to understand him.' Talk about classic.

No, I found that he didn't put forth his ideas coherently, and he most certainly ranted. If you like him, that's fine, but don't patronize me for not.

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~Guest 322837
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:26 pm 
 

So there's been a lot of talk about Cormac McCarthy here, to much praise from some and disappointment from others. I haven't read Blood Meridian, nor The Road.
But I read Child of God and I have to say I was really impressed. It is a truly amazing sketch of depravity, and depicts all that it does in a markedly distinct fashion. I can't comment on his other works but I have to say there is clearly genius in this man's work.

Anyone on the fence or not convinced about Cormac McCarthy, try Child of God. It's a short read but there's a lot packed in this tiny novel.

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~Guest 21181
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:54 pm 
 

^that one now is actually in my collection and I intend to read it before Blood Meridian.

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theposega
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:15 pm 
 

yeah child of god is very, very good. been years since i read it, but i just remember being impressed at how much you sympathized with the main character despite literally everything in the novel. it's not [i]blood meridian[/i[], but goddamn.
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BeholdtheNicktopus
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:13 am 
 

Of all the criteria by which I would think Nietzsche ought to be evaluated, coherence is probably not one of them. Actually, the appeal for many seems to be that it is incoherent (meaning he aims to undermine standards of coherence, correspondence theories of truth, theoretical projects aiming for disinterested seeing, and so on) and indeed, ranting (isn't his over the top polemical style, filled with venomous misreadings and spiteful attacks offset by an obviously suffering and DEEP thinking nature--aren't these his main appeals?).

In other words, if Nietzsche were coherent and sober, his philosophy wouldn't be NEARLY as successful. I read it as, er, performative or something. His kind of perspectivalism doesn't really work otherwise.

For some, that isn't viewed as a problem, but the characterization seems reasonable to me. At any rate, that seems like how it goes with (especially continental) philosophy: since it doesn't have an obvious "object" as do other sciences and realms of study, it has to determine its object in its very operation. And if you don't agree with how that is done, it does tend to seem worthless. So you either agree with, say, Derrida, or you think it is nonsense (not that it doesn't signify anything but more like la dee da what's the point). Not getting physics doesn't make it worthless because, hey, it enabled this or that technology. But not understanding a philosopher (esp. the ones who undermine things like truth as correspondence, assertoric judgment, conceptuality, and so on)? It seems like just so many empty words, since the whole POINT of a lot of these thinkers is that it precisely DOESN'T signify some domain of objects or produce utility (i.e. there is no fact of the matter).

I'm not necessarily claiming it to be right or wrong or dismissing anything anyone has said by saying this, but it seems to be a recurring phenomenon.
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InnesI
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:13 am 
 

Thiestru wrote:
Haha, 'maybe you weren't mature enough to understand him.' Talk about classic.

No, I found that he didn't put forth his ideas coherently, and he most certainly ranted. If you like him, that's fine, but don't patronize me for not.


Its not about liking or not liking, that's why I also brought up the example of the Quran. It works in many different ways. I think if anyone describes any of the big philosophers as "nonsense", that they are "incoherently ranting" or is/was (pretty much) "useless" there has to be some sort of discrepancy between what is read and how much of that is understood.

Example: I've tried to read Heidegger but that's on a level that is beyond me. It doesn't make me say to people that he is useless or that his stuff is nonsense however. It just means that I don't understand his writing and perhaps that it, in some ways, appears as nonsense to me because I don't understand it. But there has to be a certain level of maturity to be able to recognize if the lack is within oneself or if the lack is with the philosopher in question.

I am a teacher and I get it if a student claims a text about philosopher x is nonsense to him. He might have never before read a philosophical text and might not have any interest in it. He might not even have read much in the way of books at all. However if one is well read, have an interest in philosophy and have read several books by philosopher x I have to doubt that anyone would say it is nonsense. It just seems to shallow to me, or heavily coloured by the fact that one does not agree with philosopher x.

Its a classic case of not being able to give others their due because of ideological reasons rather than on the basis on the quality of their, in this case, writings.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:38 am 
 

What i liked in Nietzsche was the deeply positive undertone of all of his work: his will to destroy everything is motivated by a deep passion for life and his trouble to express so in the society he lived (and of course with his mind)

At times he rants aimlessly and loses coherence but at the same time he is able to write brilliant passages and point out some deep flaws of our time.
He is like a child capable of an admirable ingenuity, temper tantrums and at times great observations

I enjoyed some of his works and i disagree with a good number of things he said (in particular with his "moral of the aristocrats") but i admit that a lot of his words made me sit back and think about them

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