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vrag_moj
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:09 pm
Posts: 83
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:50 am 
 

In February, Bandcamp announced that their share of sales for a day will go to the American Civil Liberties Union in their opposition to President Trump's travel ban.
Yesterday, they announced the same sort of deal in response to a pending ban on transgender folk serving in the US military.

Ignore this bigoted, putrid garbage:
Spoiler: show
As before, the issue is two-fold: One, they are politicising the platform, that welcomes artists of diverse backgrounds, including those that personally support this move. Two, they are wrong, this is not discrimination, this is a pragmatic move on the part of the presidency, which was elected on the promise to strengthen the country. They were wrong on Executive Order 13769, which has been partially vindicated in the US Supreme Court last month as it awaits consultation from diplomats.

The reasons for Bandcamp being wrong are many, but I'll cite just a few:

1 I highly doubt that Bandcamp or the majority of their artists are constitutional lawyers. Perhaps, the former should stick to providing an excellent platform for artists and the latter to practicing their chops.

2 This is not a case of discrimination insofar that the Bill of Rights cannot be used as a model here. Lots of people are not allowed to serve in the military - the myopic, low-IQ, the flat-footed, the mentally ill.

3 Gender dysphoria is a mental illness.

4 The central issue to this is the health benefits made available to gender reassignment and hormone treatment by the Obama administration, which is estimated to cost the taxpayer between 2 and 8 million dollars a year, may require the soldier to exit active duty and is associated with a heightened suicide rate, which is already high in the military. I have to admit that this does seem like penny-pinching, compared to the Pentagon budget. However, 2-8 million of taxpayer dollars for plastic surgery is still 2-8 million too much.

I encourage all Bandcamp artists reading this to either unlist or provide their works for free, this Friday August 4, 2017. Vrag's Works will be free from this evening forward, until the end of the weekend. I do not encourage a boycott of the platform as I have no complaint with the technical side of things and feel that Bandcamp's impact on the music scene has been positive.

This is merely the issue of Ethan Diamond rubbing his politics in our faces.

Hail Satan!
-Vrag Moj

Addendum:

1 I have previously been banned for expressing views not prevalent in the US politics, aka Trump timeline of fuckery thread, here in The Tavern. I was advised that my ban was permanent. It was also quite salty, "Go start your own Pro-Trump bandcamp if you want". This was in Feb '17. I was then mysteriously unbanned. I'm not even sure what compelled me to try my login one last time in July 2017, but here I am again. So, I thank you for the opportunity to re-engage, a mixed blessing though it may be.

2 If anyone here would like to engage me in debate - If I can't defeat you in a logical argument, I might even admit that I am wrong.

3 Morrigan - what happened, man? It used to be about the music. (The Simpsons gag)
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TheWaltzer
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:07 am
Posts: 651
Location: Slowfuck Republic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:54 am 
 

This thread will definitely end well.
Personally, I will buy some stuff on bandcamp tomorrow.
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theposega
Mezla

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:42 pm
Posts: 5265
Location: Neo-Allegheny City
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:09 am 
 

except that trans people are currently serving, having passed all the tests. it's almost like the tantrum was fueled by blind prejudice and not at all based on actual concern for the military. given that the pentagon has more or less ignored the tweets, this seems pretty much irrefutable. i highly, highly doubt the pentagon would do anything to jeopardize their operations.

the military spends ten times as much on erectile dysfunction meds than they do trans medical costs. never mind that trans costs are only .13% of the total budget. this whole "the taxpayers shouldn't" argument is dumb and weak and deflates under any real scrutiny.

if the thought of charity bothers you, don't buy anything on bandcamp that day. i plan on buying a good bit myself, being that i'm not a transphobe and i like supporting artists and worthy causes.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35299
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:09 am 
 

You're wrong and are bigot trash. Please fuck off.
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wrathchild_88
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:16 pm
Posts: 495
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:13 am 
 

"Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness"

No. Just no.
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vrag_moj
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:09 pm
Posts: 83
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:18 am 
 

theposega wrote:
the military spends ten times as much on erectile dysfunction meds than they do trans medical costs. never mind that trans costs are only .13% of the total budget. this whole "the taxpayers shouldn't" argument is dumb and weak and deflates under any real scrutiny.


They do. The reason they do this is because veterans have erectile dysfunction due to old age and PTSD.
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~Guest 132892
Wastelander

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:18 am
Posts: 6349
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:18 am 
 

If I purchase a $5 album and a portion of bandcamp's profit margin goes toward the LGBTQ community I wouldn't just not mind, I'd applaud that.

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vrag_moj
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:09 pm
Posts: 83
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:24 am 
 

iAm wrote:
If I purchase a $5 album and a portion of bandcamp's profit margin goes toward the LGBTQ community I wouldn't just not mind, I'd applaud that.


The funds are going to Transgender Law Centre. Have you seen their website and if so, can you tell me how they are going to help Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, Transgender or Queer people?
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~Guest 132892
Wastelander

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:18 am
Posts: 6349
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:29 am 
 

vrag_moj wrote:
The funds are going to Transgender Law Centre. Have you seen their website and if so, can you tell me how they are going to help Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, Transgender or Queer people?

They have an "about us" section on their homepage that's pretty self explanatory. I'm sure if you have any questions about the gay agenda and how the Freemasons are putting the gay gene in chemtrails and in our water supply you can call their hotline which is also on their homepage.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35299
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:34 am 
 

I guarantee the OP has never spoken to or interacted with a trans person in his life.
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Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
Posts: 4797
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:38 am 
 

theposega wrote:
except that trans people are currently serving, having passed all the tests.


Exactly. I entirely trust the judgment of the hundred of officers who have actually overseen the physical and mental analysis of all trans servicemen and women and deemed them fit for service.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 9094
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:40 am 
 

My biggest fan/customer is a transgender person, and she is amazing. Also recently helped me out with some web design stuff. I'll gladly be donating all of my bandcamp sales on friday as well. Thanks for spreading the word, OP. I wouldn't have been aware of this if it weren't for you. I'll be sure to let all of my fans know as well.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5999
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:49 am 
 

vrag_moj wrote:
If anyone here would like to engage me in debate - If I can't defeat you in a logical argument, I might even admit that I am wrong.

/r/iamverysmart
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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 11201
Location: Ob der Enns, Austria
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:55 am 
 

vrag_moj wrote:
1 I have previously been banned for expressing views not prevalent in the US politics, aka Trump timeline of fuckery thread, here in The Tavern. I was advised that my ban was permanent. It was also quite salty, "Go start your own Pro-Trump bandcamp if you want". This was in Feb '17. I was then mysteriously unbanned. I'm not even sure what compelled me to try my login one last time in July 2017, but here I am again. So, I thank you for the opportunity to re-engage, a mixed blessing though it may be.

You simply weren't perma-banned.

EDIT: Though I assume now you are.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5999
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:05 am 
 

Fuck it. I'm hijacking this thread, and leaving it open so people can discuss and support what Bandcamp is doing here for Trans Rights.

Like rexxz and others noted above, the OP brought attention to this when we were previously unaware of it. Maybe spreading the word will encourage other artists and fans to give their support to this. I, for one, look forward to making some Bandcamp purchases as part of this campaign. If it wasn't clear in the OP, you can read more about it here:
https://daily.bandcamp.com/2017/07/31/t ... ns-rights/

Please let's keep this thread positive and supportive from this point on.
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HellBlazer
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:48 am
Posts: 2121
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:07 am 
 

Oh, thanks OP. I missed this last time. Will definitely buy some stuff this time.

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Sepulchrave
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:29 pm
Posts: 1995
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:42 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
My biggest fan/customer is a transgender person, and she is amazing. Also recently helped me out with some web design stuff. I'll gladly be donating all of my bandcamp sales on friday as well. Thanks for spreading the word, OP. I wouldn't have been aware of this if it weren't for you. I'll be sure to let all of my fans know as well.


That reminds me, I read that Chelsea Manning is a fan of Pertubator and Carpenter Brut.

"Vrag_moj" hmmm a Croatian username and comes from Australia... jesi ustaša pičko?

I read about this and it's something I fully, fully support.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10529
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:45 am 
 

vrag_moj wrote:
3 Morrigan - what happened, man? It used to be about the music. (The Simpsons gag)

OP writes that in a long post full of politicizing? I mean I already knew alt-right dipshits were always so lacking in self-awareness, but yikes. :lol:

Anyway, good for Bandcamp.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

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Goatfangs
58.2% Metal

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:02 pm
Posts: 2805
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:24 am 
 

I get a lot of my funeral doom from Bandcamp!

I'm about to do another binge.
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~Guest 58624
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 649
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:26 am 
 

Nice! Glad to have an excuse to further my reckless music purchasing. :)

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wrathchild_88
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:16 pm
Posts: 495
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:39 am 
 

I'm very disappointed in the mods for not using an excellent 'banned camp' one-liner.
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Turd Blaster
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:48 pm
Posts: 232
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:47 pm 
 

Always nice to see bigots get banned.
I've never really used Bandcamp, but I reckon I definitely should this Friday, especially for a cause as near and dear to my heart as LGBTQ+ rights. If this is gonna be a recommended purchases thread, I've been listening to a bunch of filthy and/or dissonant death metal lately and would love anything like that, although I'd also like to work more doom/sludge/black back into my listening and would love some recommendations along those lines as well.
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~Guest 132892
Wastelander

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:18 am
Posts: 6349
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:18 pm 
 

Turd Blaster wrote:
Always nice to see bigots get banned.
I've never really used Bandcamp, but I reckon I definitely should this Friday, especially for a cause as near and dear to my heart as LGBTQ+ rights. If this is gonna be a recommended purchases thread, I've been listening to a bunch of filthy and/or dissonant death metal lately and would love anything like that, although I'd also like to work more doom/sludge/black back into my listening and would love some recommendations along those lines as well.

Fetid, from Seattle.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 11421
Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:28 am 
 

wrathchild_88 wrote:
I'm very disappointed in the mods for not using an excellent 'banned camp' one-liner.


:lol:

I'll be doing the same thing as last time: 100% of the profits from sales of my stuff on Bandcamp will go to the Transgender Law Center as well on Friday the 4th.
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why
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:43 pm
Posts: 760
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:19 pm 
 

A nice thing to partake in. Thank you so much OP!

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theposega
Mezla

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:42 pm
Posts: 5265
Location: Neo-Allegheny City
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:25 am 
 

So far today I bought:

Blood Tower/Apothecarium split
John Carpenter's Lost Themes
Waveshaper's Velocity
Old Tower's The Rise of the Specter
Werwolfsblut's Dungeon Dirges
Volkor X's This Means War

will likely snag a couple more today too. thanks, bandcamp!
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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 7631
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:59 am 
 

that old tower is gd shit mang
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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 9094
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:33 am 
 

Volkor X is cool. I've been slowly but surely working on setting up a collab with him actually ^_^
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theposega
Mezla

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:42 pm
Posts: 5265
Location: Neo-Allegheny City
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:19 pm 
 

ooh! i could see your styles mixing nicely
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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 9094
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:50 pm 
 

Yeah. He's a really nice guy, too. I think we could both work in that evil overlord/conqueror angle on the image side of things, as well. His split with Daniel Deluxe for the soundtrack to Desync is really awesome.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35299
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:57 pm 
 

Here are the things I picked from today...

Matthew Ryan - Hustle Up Starlings - mellow, indie rock type stuff, great husky vocals and somber melodies.
https://matthewryan.bandcamp.com/

A Giant Dog - Pile - noisy, raucous rock with some energetic ladies bellowing out great hooks.
https://agiantdog.bandcamp.com/album/pile

Cigarettes After Sex - atmospheric pop, chilled out and a bit dreamy/electronic-like.
https://cigarettesaftersex.bandcamp.com/

Good stuff.
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circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1050
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:43 pm 
 

It's cool of them to do that.

wrathchild_88 wrote:
"Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness"

No. Just no.

It actually is considered one, IIRC. However, being transgender is NOT a mental illness and these are not the same thing. They experience dysphoria primarily when they are (or feel) forced to present as a gender other than the one they identify with. (definition: "Gender dysphoria involves a conflict between a person's physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify.")

I think Cher actually said it well, in a documentary about Chaz Bono. She said she didn't understand it at first, but then she imagined herself waking up one day as a big muscular hairy man, and how she'd be horrified. That's dysphoria. She had trouble understanding transgender people at first because she is a woman and wouldn't want to be otherwise, so it took imagining herself as something she feels she is not to understand dysphoria.
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RakdosWarlord
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:26 am
Posts: 177
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:36 pm 
 

This was the nudge that it took to buy a CD I have been wanting off of bandcamp. Would have liked to see more metal bands on the donation page, but then again idk where the metal community stands on LGBT issues. (Not saying anything about the band's political views as IDK about them but all the sales from bandcamp are giving some revenue, my link is just to show off what I got)
https://forestking.bandcamp.com/album/lore-born

I'm very supportive of LGBT folks, I have a few friends who are trans and they are good people who don't deserve a fraction of the crap they go thru. Including a trans buddy of mine who passed away. Miss you dude.

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circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1050
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:22 pm 
 

As for RakdosWarlord's question of "where does the metal community stand?" I would postulate that there is no one stance. Like anywhere else, you have people who are supportive of LGBT+ people and then, on the other hand, you have the types of people who stopped listening to Judas Priest when Rob Halford came out as gay and are probably also transphobic in addition to homophobic.

It's at least good to see some non-hateful people here. I just don't see the point or need to complain about transgender people. It's highly unlikely they are actually impacting the lives of the people who insist on being assholes.

I was just on Facebook and a friend posted one of those "post an unpopular opinion!" memes, and half of it is local people hating on transpeople for no reason at all, as far as I can tell.
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~Guest 58624
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 649
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:58 pm 
 

circleofdestruction wrote:
As for RakdosWarlord's question of "where does the metal community stand?" I would postulate that there is no one stance. Like anywhere else, you have people who are supportive of LGBT+ people and then, on the other hand, you have the types of people who stopped listening to Judas Priest when Rob Halford came out as gay and are probably also transphobic in addition to homophobic.

It's at least good to see some non-hateful people here. I just don't see the point or need to complain about transgender people. It's highly unlikely they are actually impacting the lives of the people who insist on being assholes.

I was just on Facebook and a friend posted one of those "post an unpopular opinion!" memes, and half of it is local people hating on transpeople for no reason at all, as far as I can tell.


Yeah, something like that could well be the case about the metal community, though I would hazard a guess that it is somewhat more socially liberal and LGBT-friendly than otherwise. All I have to back that up is armchair psychology, but it "seems pretty obvious" that metal tends not to attract people of a religiously conservative mindset, and that the people it does tend to attract have some lived experience outside the social mainstream. Those would likely be predictors of diminished homophobia/transphobia, and heightened empathy toward the ostracized. But I could also see all the stereotypical masculinity/machismo tilting the scale in an opposite direction at the same time.

And yes, it is very weird and frustrating to see people get so bent out of shape, so tyrannical, over individual differences in gender/sexuality, which have no real impact on their lives. It truly shouldn't matter. As is generally the case with social conservatives, their rationales are so lame, and so obviously stated after-the-fact to mask their disgust, or insecurity, or simply their all-encompassing hostility toward their political opponents, or even toward people whose very existence proves that theirs is not the only legitimate way to experience the world, etc., etc.; it invites one not to refute them in argument, but to diagnose their pathology.

...

To be more positive and on-topic: I bought Musk Ox's Woodfall yesterday on Bandcamp, and am pretty excited to hear it.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10529
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:16 pm 
 

circleofdestruction wrote:
It's at least good to see some non-hateful people here. I just don't see the point or need to complain about transgender people. It's highly unlikely they are actually impacting the lives of the people who insist on being assholes.

I was just on Facebook and a friend posted one of those "post an unpopular opinion!" memes, and half of it is local people hating on transpeople for no reason at all, as far as I can tell.

That's what always baffle me about homophobic and transphobic people (not counting the religious conservative fucktards because, well, there's no way to reason with those people anyway).

It's like... why would you* hate or despise people that in no way harm you or impact your life in any way? Why the fuck do you even care? You're not being "unPC" or "metal", you're just being a stupid fucking asshole, and for absolutely no reason.

If you're going to be hateful, at least be hateful towards those who deserve it. Like, you know, homophobic assholes :nods:


* Generic/impersonal "you" of course
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Kerrick
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:02 pm
Posts: 1415
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:43 pm 
 

megalowho wrote:
...I bought Musk Ox's Woodfall yesterday on Bandcamp, and am pretty excited to hear it.


That album is fantastic. And it only gets better the more you listen to it.

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~Guest 98976
Metal Pounder

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:08 pm
Posts: 8000
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:31 pm 
 

My stance on the whole transgendered thing, well, I didn't really have an opinion before, but I've switched to "let people do whatever the fuck they want." If you've heard the Louis C.K. story about that flamboyant gay guy he encountered on the street, that's my point of view.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10529
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:19 pm 
 

*transgender
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Commandaunt
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:31 am
Posts: 572
Location: Bolivia
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:07 am 
 

Quote:
It's at least good to see some non-hateful people here.

What do you mean some? This thread is literally an echo chamber of all the same opinions without any refutation.

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