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putrenista
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:17 am
Posts: 686
Location: The Dissociated™ (fb@congoslick)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:17 pm 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
putrenista wrote:
I never made those sweeping generalizations about all Trump supporters, and I thought I already clarified this above. Also I don't think that was Morrigan's viewpoint either. I don't see, however, what's wrong with reacting against an on-record, vocal nazi/white nationalist/klan sympathizer in the white house.

There's nothing wrong with pointing that out. There IS something wrong with calling Trump supporters idiots though, when they had nothing to do with that decision.


I said they were suckered into voting for a con-man, and against their own interests; never referred to them as idiots.

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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 4198
Location: eccaira nare epë Anar
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:22 pm 
 

darkeningday is on the money here and I'm just going to keep repeating that wisdom until the DNC gets it into their thick skulls that phrases like "bunch of deplorables" alone are enough to lose elections. This is Campaign 101 stuff. I'm also not exactly sure how you can reconcile "WE NEED TO SHAME THEM INTO VOTING BLUE" with the (what should by now be very obvious) fact that most of these people have little to no capacity for shame.

putrenista wrote:
I said they were suckered into voting for a con-man, and against their own interests; never referred to them as idiots.


I think a campaign theme of "he conned you and lied to you" is probably the best way to win over the couple million Trump voters they'll need to get ahead in 2020.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 12327
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:05 pm 
 

Saying Trump voters are idiots and that I have no sympathy for the trouble they put themselves in != calling them nazis, but nice try, MrMcThrasher the 2nd.
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Face_your_fear_79
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:18 am
Posts: 193
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:07 pm 
 

AboveTheThrone wrote:
Time and again, Trump fans have proven to me to be the most retarded people on the face of the planet. It's like talking to a fucking carrot. Better yet, it's like filling a hat with pieces of paper containing the following phrases and randomly selecting one:

1) "CUCK!"
2) "SNOWFLAKE!"
3) "LIBTARD!"
4) "hurrr durrr another socialist whining because they aren't getting free handouts!"
5) "MAGA!"

Seriously, just pick one of the above next time you think about engaging with one of those pieces of shit. There is absolutely no excuse for anyone with access to the internet to have voted for Trump. I would leave this country in a heartbeat if I had the money to do so. Maybe I will troll Trumpets so hard that they will start a crowdfunding campaign to pay for my moving expenses so I can leave.


I'm not a Trump fan.

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AboveTheThrone
Village Idiot

Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:56 pm
Posts: 689
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:26 pm 
 

I gotta agree with Morrigan on this one. Trump voters deserve the shit that's coming to them. They voted out of pure spite, without even doing a minimal amount of research on political issues. The U.S. is destined to become--as Trump would call it--a "shithole".

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MrMcThrasher II
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 1257
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:20 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Saying Trump voters are idiots and that I have no sympathy for the trouble they put themselves in != calling them nazis, but nice try, MrMcThrasher the 2nd.

I'm pretty sure you've called them Nazis in this thread. I'll find it later.

You're also once again proving yourself to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
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Grimbeard
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:09 pm
Posts: 146
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:27 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Saying Trump voters are idiots and that I have no sympathy for the trouble they put themselves in != calling them nazis, but nice try, MrMcThrasher the 2nd.


What trouble are you talking about? Someone above your post used "danger", what danger are we talking about?

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 6485
Location: Kansas City
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:00 am 
 

I believe the "trouble" she is referring to are whatever negative outcomes arise for Trump voters due to the actions of President Trump and his administration.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4362
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:46 am 
 

All the people who voted for Trump based on insurance premium rates, political history of and propensity towards warmongering, Republican's historical support of small businesses, insouciance towards classified information and good 'ole party line voters I'm sure just love being grouped in with the Alex Jones and Alt-right wackjobs, and I'm sure they'll definitely change their vote when they're told that they are, in fact, cut from the same cloth.

As opposed to, you know, just being told that their chosen candidate isn't really supporting their interests and is in fact doing much worse in every way in even Clinton's weakest areas. You know, using verifiable fact and honesty.

But please, tell my girlfriend's dad who voted for Trump because Hillary on record called his people "superpredators" and supported the war in Iraq that he's in fact a worthless piece of shit and deserves to have his voting rights taken away from him. Or you can just tell the working class guy who didn't have the time to get all the facts straight beforehand how he was misled. Either or.

Do you guys realize how major a role reactance plays in voting? Fuckin' white people these days, I tell ya.
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Grimbeard
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:09 pm
Posts: 146
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:41 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
All the people who voted for Trump based on insurance premium rates, political history of and propensity towards warmongering, Republican's historical support of small businesses, insouciance towards classified information and good 'ole party line voters I'm sure just love being grouped in with the Alex Jones and Alt-right wackjobs, and I'm sure they'll definitely change their vote when they're told that they are, in fact, cut from the same cloth.

As opposed to, you know, just being told that their chosen candidate isn't really supporting their interests and is in fact doing much worse in every way in even Clinton's weakest areas. You know, using verifiable fact and honesty.

But please, tell my girlfriend's dad who voted for Trump because Hillary on record called his people "superpredators" and supported the war in Iraq that he's in fact a worthless piece of shit and deserves to have his voting rights taken away from him. Or you can just tell the working class guy who didn't have the time to get all the facts straight beforehand how he was misled. Either or.



Do you guys realize how major a role reactance plays in voting? Fuckin' white people these days, I tell ya.


Shaking my damn head.

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BastardHead
Magic Mike

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 8680
Location: Elgin, Illinois
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:34 pm 
 

Okay for real y'all, this discourse fetish has got to stop. Where the hell has it gotten anybody lately? With the current climate as ludicrously hyperpartisan as it is, it's really clear that the ones currently in power (Republicans) have absolutely zero desire to compromise and work with the minority party (Democrats). Compromise in today's terms is "smaller guy gives up minimum half of what he wants, usually 100%". With near-total control of the government, after six years of basically shutting the whole fucking thing down and refusing to do anything at all, they're not about to give any ground now that they have it all. When faced with a challenge, they change the rules (like with Gorsuch's nomination) or stack the deck (like the ridiculously gerrymandered voting districts) or suppress the vote (like interstate crosscheck or voter ID laws (which in theory sound fine but somehow purely by coincidence overwhelmingly affect/inconvenience/straight buttfuck democratic voters)). There's currently nothing to be gained by simply "being nice" or "compromising" with things on the legislative level. I don't necessarily have a solution, but I've got at least one solid year of evidence (realistically more like seven) that shit doesn't get done that way anymore.

On the voter level though, this has gone completely the fuck overboard. Yes, I used to be one of those folks who would more or less quietly tone police Morri or at the very least roll my eyes when she'd berate Trump voters, but the last few years of this waking nightmare have shown unequivocally that fucking nobody is going to change their mind when presented with pure solid facts whatsoever, regardless of whether they're gently cooed to them or screamed or punched into their faces. Everybody's heels are dug in the dirt right now and it's 100x more dangerous on the conservative side when what they're arguing for is basically rolling back progress as much as possible and ear-fucking the planet into nothingness and categorically silencing the opposition. It sure is funny how the conservatives always demand some level of respect or coddling when they seem to spew nothing but condescension at best and genocidal vitriol at worst. No, fuck those guys. #NotAllTrumpVoters my ass, they made this bed and they're laying in it happily while handwaving away a literal Nazi resurgence* and the lesser classes are getting protections rolled back and attacked via legislation. I don't fucking care if somebody's feelings are hurt when somebody calls them an asshole for intentionally getting up, going out, and voting for a reactionary manbaby instead of a qualified human being to run the most powerful country in the world. They can get fucked. Live with that embarrassment. Nobody "accidentally" put him in office.

Earthcubed is more correct than DD though, because the DNC and such really should focus more on how they can help clean up this mess and work towards the people who are being attacked and getting more people involved. They're the politicians, that's their job. As for the average BH sitting on his computer? Fuck it man, the sympathy centers in my brain are having a really hard time activating when people whine about others being mean to them because they elected an incompetent dipshit who is doing almost nothing but harm to the country. No, we don't need to cater to the white working class folks who did this shit on purpose. Tell them they got duped, sure, but the instant they go on the defense, shut 'em the fuck down. There's this implication with that mindset, whether intentional or not, that those folks are Real America and they're the votes that truly matter. Like yo, were y'all asleep when Doug Jones won in Alabama? Alabama? The shorthand stereotype for dumb hillbillies the world over, one of the most deep red states in the union, elected a Democratic senator in large part because of the minority vote. Yeah there was a perfect storm of controversy around Moore, but do I need to break out that graph of how the vote was split between white/black/men/women again? There is a massive disenfranchisement problem in America, like half the country didn't even bother voting in the presidential election, look what happens when the turnout get cranked up. I think it's bewildering and frankly kinda fucking offensive that engaging and encouraging minorities, giving them a voice, and trying to work for them is being put second to making sure whitey's feelings don't get hurt by so many people nowadays. Seriously, fuck outta here with that shit. Trump didn't win because of Wyoming, he won because of Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc. Fuck flipping the dipshits who voted out of spite or ignorance, if they haven't figured out how utterly fucknuts wrong their decision was by now, they're not gonna change their minds. Work on engaging the people who didn't vote, not coddling the feelings of the morons who chose the wrongest answer in my lifetime.


* - For real, there are dudes marching down the streets with literal god damned swazi flags and chanting white supremacist mantras. The whole "you just call everybody you disagree with a Nazi!" argument really stopped holding weight when actual Nazis came back and started getting called Nazis. Shit, ever noticed how the term "feminazi" fell out of favor in recent years? Almost like the dudes who would spew about that shit decided Nazis weren't so bad or something, huh? Funny that.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 4362
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:36 pm 
 

BastardHead wrote:
Earthcubed is more correct than DD though

Business as usual :lol:

The problem is that most people judge their political opponents by their worst and most vocal supporters--it's called the fundamental attribution error for a reason. But look, I'm telling you that Obama got re-elected in large part because of the bugnuts insane hyperbole being spewed about him by the Right--he's a Muslim, he's a communist, he's the worst president in American history, he's a war criminal. If I had a quarter for each time I read that Obama would be impeached by the end of the week, I'd have 416 quarters.

Don't bother with False Equivalence because I'm in no way saying Obama = Trump. What I'm saying is that your average dumbfuck American voter can't tell the difference; and like it or not, their vote counts just as much as yours. Again, reactance is a far more effective campaign strategy than having an actual campaign strategy.

You're playing right into Trumple hands when they get to play the poor oppressed majority card. Don't give them an entry.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 6485
Location: Kansas City
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:39 pm 
 

The black vote share in the Moore election wasn't much higher than it was in previous campaigns where the democrat lost that same seat by many points. Jones won because the controversy around Moore caused a larger than normal part of the republican voting bloc there that was usually unbeatable to abstain. The democrats ran Jones as the diet republican he is, which got the usual anemic response from voters, even with the controversy around Moore.

Anyway, I agree. The Obama years demonstrated that the republican party is not interested in compromise on any level. They haven't been since the Contract with America back in the 90's. It has been their consistent policy to obstruct and undermine government whenever they are not in power in order to punish the American people for not putting them in power. Of course it's hard to break the habits, so while they have become very good at getting and keeping power, they have become extremely poor at exercising it judiciously or effectively.

Spite is what motivates the voting base for the party, now, and I really don't see any reasoning with that. I've tried with my friends, parents, coworkers, etc. I can be diplomatic in person if any of you believe that ( :P ). Conservatives take offense at everything, are always on the defensive, and only really like a policy if they feel it is going to stick it to someone, somewhere. What's there to negotiate? They don't want things that would be immediately beneficial for everyone precisely because it would be beneficial. One way or another, it's never "worth it" no matter how worth it it would actually be. Whether that reason is deficit hawkery, states rights, racism, economic doctrine, distrust of government, religion, etc, the conclusion is always the same. It's the conclusion they are trained to come to in every situation.

Sadly the democrats follow the republicans in all things, and want to make spite the motivation for their base as well. This would work for the party bosses and donor class because that would make it impossible for the Sanders/Social Democrat part of the voting base to convince moderate voters to support policies that would materially benefit the masses, since the masses necessarily includes the people they are supposed to loath and abominate. So, the hatred of republican rubes and trump chumps should stop not because they deserve better but because the catharsis of sticking it to them isn't worth the negative consequences for everyone. I think this is what darkeningday was sort-of getting at.

The winning strategy is to focus on the whole poor and working classes, not just the white part of it, because it is out of that class that a voting bloc can be built which would support policies which would result in material benefits for everyone. For those who think the focus should be more minority specific, this is the way to accomplish that because minorities are disproportionately represented in the these classes (go figure). Some hardcore republican voters and trump trainers might come around once they start enjoying those benefits, but I think most would just attribute their good fortune to the universe's recognition of their innate worth rather than the political efforts of others.
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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 1727
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:58 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
They haven't been since the Contract with America back in the 90's.


:???:
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 6485
Location: Kansas City
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:05 am 
 

Yeah, that's around the time they stopped compromising. It was a good time to do so because Bill Clinton's entire schtick was being the cool version of Reagan who could tamp down democratic party opposition to the kinds of policies in the contract. Gingrich was a lot more saavy than he gets credit for, I think, and anticipated a lot of the changes that ended up coming about in US politics. He even called Trump.
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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 1727
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:12 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
Yeah, that's around the time they stopped compromising. It was a good time to do so because Bill Clinton's entire schtick was being the cool version of Reagan who could tamp down democratic party opposition to the kinds of policies in the contract. Gingrich was a lot more saavy than he gets credit for, I think, and anticipated a lot of the changes that ended up coming about in US politics. He even called Trump.


I meant I don't know what the Contract with America was. And it doesn't exactly seem like something that would give a specific answer if I typed in into Google. Edit: never mind it's a wikipedia article.
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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 4198
Location: eccaira nare epë Anar
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:18 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
Gingrich was a lot more saavy than he gets credit for, I think, and anticipated a lot of the changes that ended up coming about in US politics.


I think that was more self-fulfilling prophesying on his part than actual prophesying.


Your assessment of the Jones election is half-right. The Republicans who didn't turn out would have turned out if they thought someone to Jones' left was the alternative, and no amount of hypothetical increased minority turnout would have overcome that, not in Alabama.
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Earthcubed
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 4198
Location: eccaira nare epë Anar
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:29 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Don't bother with False Equivalence because I'm in no way saying Obama = Trump. What I'm saying is that your average dumbfuck American voter can't tell the difference; and like it or not, their vote counts just as much as yours. Again, reactance is a far more effective campaign strategy than having an actual campaign strategy.


In the case of 2016, their vote actually counted more, since there were a few million Obama voters (spread out over several hundred counties) who flipped to Trump. "He's different, he's new to politics, he's an outsider, he'll shake things up" in both cases, apparently.
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iamntbatman wrote:
On Friday I passed an important milestone in my teaching career: a student shat himself

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
That wasn't meant as a k.o. though, he specifically targeted an area of the cerebellum which, if ruptured, renders you a Jehovah's witness indefinitely

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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
Posts: 3800
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:22 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Don't bother with False Equivalence because I'm in no way saying Obama = Trump. What I'm saying is that your average dumbfuck American voter can't tell the difference; and like it or not, their vote counts just as much as yours. Again, reactance is a far more effective campaign strategy than having an actual campaign strategy.


In the case of 2016, their vote actually counted more, since there were a few million Obama voters (spread out over several hundred counties) who flipped to Trump. "He's different, he's new to politics, he's an outsider, he'll shake things up" in both cases, apparently.


Democrats also stayed home either out of laziness or spite because Bernie wasn't selected. They ran to conspiracy theories about Hillary bullying the party, when Bernie simply didn't have the full support, and he hung on too long when he should have bowed out gracefully and backed Clinton. Trump was "elected" by fewer votes than McCain and Romney lost with.

At this rate, though, by 2020, Democrats will be able to run on Reagan's mantra of "is your life really better now than it was four years ago?" Because, no, it fucking won't be. People are losing health insurance, and Trump is raising taxes on the Middle Class. Last time Republicans attempted this kind of "rich get richer" tax overhaul, it preceded the recession under Bush. Job growth is at the lowest it's been in six years.

The one thing Trump has going for him is that he's a salesman, and while his products fail (like his presidency), it worked in the short term and got him elected. The same "stupid voters" everyone so casually dismisses have killed off every candidate he's thus far supported. It's quickly becoming clear that if Trump supports your campaign, you are going to lose.
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circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1077
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:06 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Obama got re-elected in large part because of the bugnuts insane hyperbole being spewed about him by the Right--he's a Muslim, he's a communist, he's the worst president in American history, he's a war criminal. If I had a quarter for each time I read that Obama would be impeached by the end of the week, I'd have 416 quarters..

I was arguing with someone yesterday, he was saying that no president in our lifetime (Reagan to the present day) had been judged so harshly or had such bad things said about him as Trump.

I disagreed. 4 years ago, I still had some relatives on my FB, and they constantly spewed falsehoods about Obama, the ones you mentioned mostly, Muslim, Kenyan, dictator, worst president ever, as well as racist things like calling him and his wife "apes," and I fail to see how people are treating Trump worse.

The only main difference is that, largely, it seems people made up shit about Obama (like he's not American), whereas people often just use Trump's actual words to show he's an asshole ("shithole nations," calling nazis good people, refusing to denounce the KKK). Have people been saying a lot of outright lies? I'm not sure I've heard them if so. I just don't think it's equivalent.

I even had one guy say the poor are stupid because they don't understand how Trump's tax plan will be helping them.wtf

It does fascinate me to talk to Trump fans sometimes, this one (a guy I went to school with) says he's happy someone like Trump is in charge, it gives him hope for the future and for his children's future, and he thinks Trump cares about the US (by saying he won't let in refugees). I'm like "damn, well it takes away my hope for the future! Glad I don't have kids so I don't have to worry about their futures as well!" XD
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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
Posts: 3800
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:34 am 
 

circleofdestruction wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Obama got re-elected in large part because of the bugnuts insane hyperbole being spewed about him by the Right--he's a Muslim, he's a communist, he's the worst president in American history, he's a war criminal. If I had a quarter for each time I read that Obama would be impeached by the end of the week, I'd have 416 quarters..

I was arguing with someone yesterday, he was saying that no president in our lifetime (Reagan to the present day) had been judged so harshly or had such bad things said about him as Trump.

I disagreed. 4 years ago, I still had some relatives on my FB, and they constantly spewed falsehoods about Obama, the ones you mentioned mostly, Muslim, Kenyan, dictator, worst president ever, as well as racist things like calling him and his wife "apes," and I fail to see how people are treating Trump worse.

The only main difference is that, largely, it seems people made up shit about Obama (like he's not American), whereas people often just use Trump's actual words to show he's an asshole ("shithole nations," calling nazis good people, refusing to denounce the KKK). Have people been saying a lot of outright lies? I'm not sure I've heard them if so. I just don't think it's equivalent.

I even had one guy say the poor are stupid because they don't understand how Trump's tax plan will be helping them.wtf

It does fascinate me to talk to Trump fans sometimes, this one (a guy I went to school with) says he's happy someone like Trump is in charge, it gives him hope for the future and for his children's future, and he thinks Trump cares about the US (by saying he won't let in refugees). I'm like "damn, well it takes away my hope for the future! Glad I don't have kids so I don't have to worry about their futures as well!" XD


Trump is simply being called on his bullshit, of which, there is an insurmountable pile. Obama was definitely treated, by far, the worst.

Both of my son's parents essentially said "sorry about your future" to him after Trump was "elected." Gutting the middle class is no way to "Make America Great Again."
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circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1077
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:12 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
Trump is simply being called on his bullshit, of which, there is an insurmountable pile. Obama was definitely treated, by far, the worst.

Both of my son's parents essentially said "sorry about your future" to him after Trump was "elected." Gutting the middle class is no way to "Make America Great Again."

Yeah, that was my interpretation, but when I talk to republicans, they always seem to say Trump is being treated unfairly, and people are too mean to him. No, they're only reacting to things he actually said.

I tried to ask some people why they keep bringing up Hillary every 5 minutes too, when dems didn't constantly talk about Mitt Romney after he lost the election to Obama (and so on with previous elections). That's never happened, to my knowledge. "But Hillary...." Who cares? She didn't win. Wish the repubs would get over her and start talking about issues that matter.

Make America Great Again for the top 1%, I guess. Everyone else is getting royally screwed, worrying about health insurance, worrying if they can ever retire, etc.

Another told me that social media is part of modern society and it's ok that Trump uses it. I told him using Twitter is not the problem; it's what he says on Twitter and how he says it. It's like talking to a brick wall with these people. I swear they're living in an alternate universe where he can do no wrong.

This guy apparently thinks it's cool that he has a potty mouth and thinks America is just "too sensitive" if they are "offended" by him acting like a foul mouthed spoiled brat. No, we just want him to act like an adult, it has nothing to do with being "oversensitive." It's about him being an embarrassment to the country. And then I have the super religious evangelical christian relatives who somehow also support him, but their heads would have exploded if a democrat said the shit he says.

And they think it's ok when he talks shit on the first amendment (namely the freedom of the press part of it). He thinks the "press has too much freedom." I can't even get over that statement. He just wants to censor anything that's not kissing his ass, and the amount of people who yell "fake news!" at anything they don't like is alarming, also. It's as if facts no longer matter at all, if you don't like a fact, you just pretend it's not a fact. -_-
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 6485
Location: Kansas City
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:42 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
Democrats also stayed home either out of laziness or spite because Bernie wasn't selected. They ran to conspiracy theories about Hillary bullying the party, when Bernie simply didn't have the full support, and he hung on too long when he should have bowed out gracefully and backed Clinton. Trump was "elected" by fewer votes than McCain and Romney lost with.

The conspiracy theory turned out to be true, however. Why should a party which cheats its people out of a fair chance to get the kind of candidate they want be rewarded with unwavering support for a candidate who stands for nothing (at best) or the opposite of what they wanted (most likely)?

When did primaries go from being competitive races where people are able to choose from a variety of candidates and policy ideas to a pre-scripted, coronation of whoever the party bosses picked in a smoke filled back room? Democratic indeed.

I thought hilbots were over blaming sandernistas for Hillary's deficiencies as a candidate and had moved on to genuine conspiracy theories like 4chan hacking all the voting machines. But I guess they need someone to shit on who actually sort-of cares what they think, because shitting on Trump lovers is fun and all but they don't care at all what some liberal thinks of them (at least not in a way that's fun to engage with). Since Hillary fans are usually higher in social class anyway I guess it's another way to punch down.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:40 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
When did primaries go from being competitive races where people are able to choose from a variety of candidates and policy ideas to a pre-scripted, coronation of whoever the party bosses picked in a smoke filled back room? Democratic indeed.

When Mondale and Dukakis turned out to be utter electoral failures as a result of an open process, and the Bush > Clinton > Bush > Clinton formula looked like it would be a "sure thing" until they realized they had a chance to elect the First Black President™ and decided to hold off on that formula until his turn was done. I think the only lesson they've learned is not that an open process is good, but that the aforementioned Clinton formula just didn't work as they expected. Instead, I have no doubt that they will adopt a new formula: Second Black/Minority President™, hand-picked and coronated by the party leadership in order to be as safe as possible. The question is, which Senator/Governor/Representative/Celebrity will they choose?

I think the Republicans are finally realizing that same lesson, that the open process of this last election was a disaster for themselves as an institution. Once they're done with Trump, I could also see the Republicans moving towards a less competitive process, and more towards coronating a specific candidate of their choosing.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:53 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
Resident_Hazard wrote:
Democrats also stayed home either out of laziness or spite because Bernie wasn't selected. They ran to conspiracy theories about Hillary bullying the party, when Bernie simply didn't have the full support, and he hung on too long when he should have bowed out gracefully and backed Clinton. Trump was "elected" by fewer votes than McCain and Romney lost with.

The conspiracy theory turned out to be true, however. Why should a party which cheats its people out of a fair chance to get the kind of candidate they want be rewarded with unwavering support for a candidate who stands for nothing (at best) or the opposite of what they wanted (most likely)?



Like a lot of conspiracy theories, it was not actually true.

Hillary Clinton was simply more popular.

File this with anything to do with Freemasons, Lizardpeople, secret government UFO captures, the Illuminatti, or Taco Bell.
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:05 pm 
 

I'd believe it if it wasn't Dana Houle, a DNC insider, giving his same old deflective response for the DNC's behaviour.

This is how political parties act, RH. There's no conspiracy to it.

EDIT: I remember you mentioned that you want to run for politics? Good luck doing so without the DNC choosing you, ordaining you, and providing support for you. If you are not their chosen candidate, they will try every tactic available to them to make sure you do not win the nomination. And frankly, with their friends in high places, and with the number of fanatical "volunteers" they have and the money to throw at them, you would be awfully lucky to even get a word in before they drown you out. You stand no chance unless you are already a loyal member of the team, "knock doors" and "patted backs" for them, and/or can fill their coffers.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:01 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
I'd believe it if it wasn't Dana Houle, a DNC insider, giving his same old deflective response for the DNC's behaviour.

This is how political parties act, RH. There's no conspiracy to it.

EDIT: I remember you mentioned that you want to run for politics? Good luck doing so without the DNC choosing you, ordaining you, and providing support for you. If you are not their chosen candidate, they will try every tactic available to them to make sure you do not win the nomination. And frankly, with their friends in high places, and with the number of fanatical "volunteers" they have and the money to throw at them, you would be awfully lucky to even get a word in before they drown you out. You stand no chance unless you are already a loyal member of the team, "knock doors" and "patted backs" for them, and/or can fill their coffers.


That idea has, unfortunately, been stalled for the moment as I work through the other busy crap I have to deal with. You know, life. What you've described sounds like "politics," as usual as it were. For me step 1 is where to start and step 2 is how to play the game.

Parties play favorites and they play strategies, one team wants to win and they will work the system to do it. It's a broken, unfettered, filthy mess, to be sure, but something that needs to be learned to be entered and toppled. We all saw how the GOP nearly collapsed in on itself when their strategies failed and Trump moved ahead as their horrifying front-runner. After he was elected, they went right back to playing the game, but now they had a grown man-baby who didn't understand the system or the world and he's easily prodded and used so they can get their way. Or at least try to.

If there's one thing we've seen with this administration, Republican are almost universally vastly more evil and corrupt and self-serving than we maybe dared believe.
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circleofdestruction
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:17 pm 
 

I read just now that they had the White House doctor say Trump is in great health, mentally and physically. Some people can eat a terrible diet, be overweight, and thrive on it and live forever, my grandpa, who died at 86, was an example of this. Maybe trump doesn't have a lot of apparent health issues for a man his age, or maybe the doctor is exaggerating a bit. I dunno about the mental part of that, though.

Quote:
If there's one thing we've seen with this administration, Republican are almost universally vastly more evil and corrupt and self-serving than we maybe dared believe.

This. Most of the stuff that goes on in politics is corrupt and awful, but I do agree it's more corrupt and awful than most of us probably thought, now that we've seen this administration.
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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:56 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
[
Like a lot of conspiracy theories, it was not actually true.

Hillary Clinton was simply more popular.

File this with anything to do with Freemasons, Lizardpeople, secret government UFO captures, the Illuminatti, or Taco Bell.


Your information in this case woefully outdated.
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:03 pm 
 

Also, this "Sanders should have bowed out gracefully" line is horse shit. Sanders conceded Hillary her ill-gotten nomination at the convention, and then stumped for her on the campaign trail, denigrating himself in order to fulfill the promise he made to support her if she was nominated. Even after doing all that, Hillary still shat on him and blamed him for her problems in her self-serving memoir.

I'm also willing to bet that Sanders fans voted for Hillary in the final election at a higher rate than #imwithher people simply for the reason that Sanders fans are more motivated about politics in general and care about policy outcomes, something you could not accuse the Hillary base of.
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Svarthavid
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:55 pm 
 

A lot of good discussion at the last two pages since I checked this thread the last time, so I'll throw in my two cents without quoting anyone, but rather fill out my thoughts on some of the things that I felt like expressing my opinion at.

What Circleofdestruction said about arguing with Trump supporters is absolutely spot on. I've not argued a lot with actual American Trump supporters, but have lurked around the major news outlets from a cross the atlantic, and what I see is not pleasant. However, I've sometimes argued with people in the comments section of Norwegian news outlets, and their string of argumentation is of course as expected: Fake news, snowflakes and whatnot. Yes, there are actual supporters of him around these parts too, but fortunately since our country is much smaller, they are mostly a minority of middle aged men and 1 or 2 alltright supporter of a younger demographic that stick to the comments sections to circle jerk each other in bewilderment of how horribly outdated they are in hopes of feeling that their opinions actually have any value. There are also some studies showing that men 50+ are the most hostile in internet debates, but that's for another post. They're also using "socialist/leftist propaganda" about any arguments that doesn't comply with their world view. When I confront them with facts about Trump actually being an asshole completely by his own brainpower or lack there of, they either become dead silent, talk about Hillary or changes the subject. The last example of this was some nonsense about Jimmy cArter. When I confront them about doing so, they either stop replying or in some cases come with ad homonyms about my appearance or something like that.

And that's actually where I'm heading with this, that these people doesn't like to reason, learn something or generally improve themselves, they just want to be mean because they themselves feel so completely powerless. These are often people that feel outdated in todays western civilisation and they feel threatened because they can no longer impose their crappy behaviour upon others without facing large amounts of public outcry. I can't speak for the US, but over all of Europe there is also a sort of right wing uprising that sort of halted a bit when Trump got elected because some of the more reasonable of these scumbags actually realised shit got real and that we can't just like, troll and troll until the world submits to our will. Of course they're still trying like ever before, but that's beside the point. Half a year ago I would possibly stand idly by darkeningdAy 100%, but now, I actually have given up on reasoning with people like that because they don't know shit about anything, and they seemingly doesn't want to know. They just want politics that fit they're child like state of reasoning and don't understand simple concepts like diplomacy etc. Not that I condone his points by any means, I totally want to get as many Americans over to the right side as the next guy, but I can't seem to find a way to teach people stuff like that that doesn't have any social skills to begin with. Trump literally could kill someone and these people refuse to acknowledge anything. actually, Trump have been self aware enough to say the same thing, but that's also another story.

However, what we can do is to be as reasonable as possible. Try to use as correct language as possible and cling to facts so that the generation that grows up can see with their own eyes that we were right all along. Because we fucking were! And that's Svarthavid's longest post on Metal archives in this accounts entire existence, methinks.
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AboveTheThrone
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:23 am 
 

Yeah, my advice to my fellow Americans is to stop wasting your time trying to educate the masses and start saving up money to move to a better country. Thing's aren't going to get better in the foreseeable future.

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GTog
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:26 am 
 

Very good post Svarthavid. I have steered clear of this thread for awhile because it was getting too nasty in here.

I have been living in Texas, USA, for about 3 years now, and have a lot of good friends who are solid Republicans and even voted for Trump. They're not bad people. I know that a lot of Trump supporters are pure awful, but I don't know any of those kind personally.

Their main fault is that they just tend to believe what they believe without thinking about it too hard. On the rare occasions that I get into a political discussion with them I can get them to come around on specific things, usually by pointing out how the Republican establishment hacks have misrepresented the issue. They have a hard time with the fact that there exist people that get up and go to work, just like everyone else, except that their job is to lie to you. So they not taking their news with a grain of salt, like everyone should.

But I'll never get them to vote for a Democrat. Ever. It's not in their blood. The best we can hope for is an Alabama situation, where the R candidate is shown to be so egregiously awful (before the election) that the R voters stay home.
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Napero
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:29 am 
 

There is a point in not calling Trump supporters idiots, I think. A sizable fraction of them may well be exactly that, but making that the main point in discussions is counter-productive, and lumps a lot of people in a grey mass; that alone should be a no-no for any liberal-minded person. It also fuels the Trump engine and its international kin. Let me explain...

In Finland, we have our own Trump wannabe creationist idiot True Finn lady as a presidential candidate. I'm not worried about her getting elected, but she does hold a solid 8% or something in the polls, and I am a bit intrigued about the reasons why such a moron and a shrill bullshit spewing excuse for a human being has any support. She is, essentially, a brainless blabbering moron, and a true ideological Trump clone (assuming you can actually pin any real ideology or other logic on Trump... but I digress). And I think there is quite a bit to learn there, if we ever want to improve the national IQ and have a real debate.

I would not generally call Finns xenophobes, religious nutjobs or anti-EU zealots, but all of those opinions exist on the fringes, just like in any society. The world is changing, and we now have plenty of refugees, the inconvenience caused by climate change seems threatening to traditional habits, many people see the change and modernization in family and relationship dynamics as the end of traditional lifestyles and morals. Especially the men in the 50+ age bracket, and the younger guys who fail to get their personal crap together, feel left out or stripped of their power in the society. And remember, it may be wrong on many levels, but they feel entitled to that power and position, it's traditional and they were brought up in a society and families with those values. Shit, a lot of men my age feel devastated if they ever happen to get divorced in the way I did: they cannot control their own lives in the way even the socially clumsier guys could back in the 70's when they were learning the ways of the world from their own parents, especially dads, when women knew their places and families stayed together no matter how unhappy they were. They feel powerless and left out, and any simplification of the world around them, no matter how extreme and hate-based, may feel like a saving straw. People have always been very good at blaming their own failures and shortcomings on others, and the xenophobic and "traditional value" politicians offer plenty of possibilities for that. Cannot get a job? Immigrants. Cannot hold your marriage together? Moral erosion of the traditional sex roles and family values. Cannot get laid? Females turning uppity and abandoning the natural ways the world used to work. And so forth.

Add the facts that my generation and the younger people will have to cope with challenges their parents never had: rising education costs, difficulty of getting that first job or never having a steady income, parents that seem to live forever, yet suffer from a multitude of lifestyle and old-age problems that require money and plenty of effort at the very time when you're supposed to be building a career and raising your own kids. You might never own your own house, you see your own parents devastated by Parkinson's or something in their mid-60's and know that all forecasts say your pension will likely start when you're 71 (in my case, that's a fact, and my parents retired at 63 and 64, already partly devastated by several physical problems), because the pension system cannot cope with the cost of the post-war generation otherwise. I will likely never have a pension like that of my parents, regardless of the fact that I will essentially paying that for them. And at the same time, the older guys who started their careers in the 80's will hold on to their jobs as long as they can to maximize their pensions, essentially stopping younger people from advancing. We have a assortment of huge challenges ahead, and they are unlike those of any previous generation. The system was built by the huge post-war generation, and it was built to favour them; it's a rigged thing, and there's little we can do about it as long as the older generations outnumber us in voting.

Now, feeling left out, and at the same time hearing and seeing the largely imaginary liberal forces that change the world, shatter the dearly held "traditional values", bring in immigrants who will need health care and support paid by tax money, and empower women and minorities, can result in resentment. It's not about being an idiot; it might be about being a loser, although not necessarily even that. But in any case, it's about finding comfort and assurance for one's own faltering self-esteem in ideas that lay the blame on someone else or something new. It may be political correctness that sub-consciously symbolizes the changing gender dynamics, the fact that the thousands of young able men depicted as refugees seem to leech tax money while your own parents languish in a nursing home with crap in their adult diapers for hours due to lack of resources, or failing to get a job on some traditional/outdated field and finding a suitable scape goat in the EU membership.

It is a very fruitful place for any demagogue, willing to put the blame on someone else or some other way of thinking, to stake a plot and start spewing vitriol. On some hazy level, it explains Trump and Brexit, and the success of the remaining True Finns, and most far right (and left, for that matter) movements. The world is changing, and not everybody is willing to change with it. Fear, unwillingness to embrace new ideas and values, and the ease of shifting the blame on something else than oneself might be the root cause for a lot of things. Labeling the people in fear or trying to hold their ground idiots is not going to help that; it just paints the more liberal ideas as scarier monsters, and we all know what that does.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:42 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
Resident_Hazard wrote:
[
Like a lot of conspiracy theories, it was not actually true.

Hillary Clinton was simply more popular.

File this with anything to do with Freemasons, Lizardpeople, secret government UFO captures, the Illuminatti, or Taco Bell.


Your information in this case woefully outdated.


These, and an article I'm reading from Washington Post, the Atlantic, and the New Yorker still do not denote a vast conspiracy or say things were rigged. Indeed, it seems Donna Brazile herself refused to say the word "rigged." She paints a picture of a badly mismanaged campaign that stank of failure, and her book is from the perspective of someone who may not be emotionally removed from the mess yet. There appears to be some pretty shifty money management behind the scenes, and people treating one another like shit across the board.

From a New Yorker article:

Quote:
The cancer, in other words, was not Clinton favoritism but a fund-raising approach that ignored the sense of the law and hollowed out the Party. From Brazile’s point of view, the Party was being treated as a vessel for the transfer of money without even a pretense of autonomy. This is what she was getting at, on a conference call with Brooklyn, when she invoked another character, “Patsey the slave,” the woman played by Lupita Nyong’o in “12 Years a Slave.” “Y’all keep whipping me and whipping me and you never give me any money or any way to do my damn job. . . . From this time on, we’re keeping the money we raise, is that clear? Patsey is keeping her money!” (She did get to, but only some of it.)


All of this, though, just further adds to what an exhausting mess the 2016 election was and how the US was screwed no matter what. Granted, we'd have been far less screwed with Hillary in the White House, but things were not going to come out positively, and if these issues aren't fixed within the DNC as a whole, the 2020 election is going to be another mess that further erodes confidence in this electoral process.

As a note, I don't have time to read all of this stuff at the moment, so apologies for lacking further details. Personally, I think it's less important to be propping up conspiracy theories and endlessly bickering about Hillary v Bernie. Forget the both of them. Hillary is done. Bernie is done (presidential candidate-wise). If either of them attempts to step into 2020, they'll just ensure Trump gets another shot. We also need to move beyond hand-waving dismissals that "if you voted for Trump, you're scum and nothing more" since it's well known that Bernie and Obama supporters also voted for him, and there is ample published regret from countless former Trump supporters. Continuing to call them garbage only makes people double-down and go back to their idea. Berating does not endear people to your point of view, no matter how correct (unfortunately).

All of this shit keeps people trapped in the past, which fixes nothing moving forward. Yes, there is value to looking back to figure out what went wrong. But in a year where "what went wrong" was "fucking everything that could", I think the bigger risk is lingering in the past without moving forward rationally or productively. Trump spent all of 2017 whining about Hillary and the election, and his administration accomplished next to nothing, outside of gutting the Middle Class by raising taxes.

I mean look at this. What good is accomplished by continually talking Hillary and DNC mismanagement? Bernie supporters are never going to be satiated, they aren't going to move on. And while people fail to move on, Trump is trampling the Constitution, walking around like a dictator, and the Republicans are raping the bulk of this country. Even Bernie Sanders himself seems tired of being mired in the past, as he's attempting to deal with Trump. And without Al Franken constantly on the frontlines, there isn't much out there still protecting this country, and dare I say, the world, from what Trump and the Republican party are trying to do.
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circleofdestruction
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:48 am 
 

GTog wrote:
by pointing out how the Republican establishment hacks have misrepresented the issue. They have a hard time with the fact that there exist people that get up and go to work, just like everyone else, except that their job is to lie to you. So they not taking their news with a grain of salt, like everyone should.

I think they do believe the other side does that though, and therefore, the Trump fans say everything that they disagree with is "fake news."

They latch onto news sources biased toward their own views and refuse to think critically about those sources, though. And the only way to blindly believe those sources is to also call other news "fake news."

But yeah, I know a lot of Trump voters, people I grew up with, went to school with, etc. and I don't consider them stupid or bad. I think it goes along with those studies that were saying liberals and conservatives think about the world entirely differently, somehow they see a good guy where I see a complete POS.


Svarthavid wrote:
And that's actually where I'm heading with this, that these people doesn't like to reason, learn something or generally improve themselves, they just want to be mean because they themselves feel so completely powerless.

I've read articles on how Alex Jones fans believe his conspiracy crap because they feel powerless, and I think there is much overlap there between his followers and Trump supporters. There might be something to that, both in the sense of lashing out and in the sense of making up crazy conspiracy theories to believe someone else is pulling the strings.

It still amazes me that we have a Birther in the White House. Trump was one of the people who thought Barack Obama was not American. This is so idiotic.

But you can't argue with a lot of them because they just throw out insults. I really wish critical thinking was taught early in schools, as well as how to debate properly. Everyone gets so emotionally involved and then discussion doesn't happen, and people are more partisan than ever these days.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:49 am 
 

AboveTheThrone wrote:
Yeah, my advice to my fellow Americans is to stop wasting your time trying to educate the masses and start saving up money to move to a better country. Thing's aren't going to get better in the foreseeable future.


If everybody did this instead of trying to make things better, the good places would become an increasingly small pocket in the world, until most of the planet is garbage with nowhere else to run.

I like the idea of stopping to think "if everybody did what I'm about to do, would that make the world a better place?" Because if the answer is no, you shouldn't do it.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:03 am 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
All of this, though, just further adds to what an exhausting mess the 2016 election was and how the US was screwed no matter what. Granted, we'd have been far less screwed with Hillary in the White House, but things were not going to come out positively, and if these issues aren't fixed within the DNC as a whole, the 2020 election is going to be another mess that further erodes confidence in this electoral process.

As a note, I don't have time to read all of this stuff at the moment, so apologies for lacking further details. Personally, I think it's less important to be propping up conspiracy theories and endlessly bickering about Hillary v Bernie. Forget the both of them. Hillary is done. Bernie is done (presidential candidate-wise). If either of them attempts to step into 2020, they'll just ensure Trump gets another shot. We also need to move beyond hand-waving dismissals that "if you voted for Trump, you're scum and nothing more" since it's well known that Bernie and Obama supporters also voted for him, and there is ample published regret from countless former Trump supporters. Continuing to call them garbage only makes people double-down and go back to their idea. Berating does not endear people to your point of view, no matter how correct (unfortunately).

All of this shit keeps people trapped in the past, which fixes nothing moving forward. Yes, there is value to looking back to figure out what went wrong. But in a year where "what went wrong" was "fucking everything that could", I think the bigger risk is lingering in the past without moving forward rationally or productively. Trump spent all of 2017 whining about Hillary and the election, and his administration accomplished next to nothing, outside of gutting the Middle Class by raising taxes.

I mean look at this. What good is accomplished by continually talking Hillary and DNC mismanagement? Bernie supporters are never going to be satiated, they aren't going to move on. And while people fail to move on, Trump is trampling the Constitution, walking around like a dictator, and the Republicans are raping the bulk of this country. Even Bernie Sanders himself seems tired of being mired in the past, as he's attempting to deal with Trump. And without Al Franken constantly on the frontlines, there isn't much out there still protecting this country, and dare I say, the world, from what Trump and the Republican party are trying to do.

I agree with you on a fair bit of that post, but fundamentally it is vital to learn from the past, in order to understand the future. That is especially true in politics.

If you want to resist Trump and the Republican Party you're not going to be successful or at all constructive being angry and just complaining about it. You're not going to remake the electoral system and implement positive institutional change by sitting at your computer and wishing upon a star. Likewise, you're not going to elicit political and societal change by joining a protest and punching a social pariah. The only way that the Republicans can be defeated is through the ballot box, and you cannot afford to have the DNC - the only viable power to counter the Republicans - continue to repeat the same mistakes ad nauseum again and again and allow an opening for people like Trump to fuck up your country. Right now is the best opportunity you - a regular, average person - has to put pressure on the DNC to adapt, change and evolve in order to win. If no lessons are learned from this last election - and other past elections - then I could certainly see history repeating itself.

That's why it's important to talk about these issues. Ignoring them, obfuscating them, and/or denying them wont help your stake in your country. And I feel awfully bad for you when people do try to avoid it, or shut down discussion on it. Trump and the Republicans are only a symptom of a bigger problem with your politics; a problem that wont go away with divisiveness and deflection.
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:22 am 
 

x
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circleofdestruction
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:46 pm 
 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gop-senator- ... itics.html
Quote:
Sen. Jeff Flake, a frequent Trump critic who is retiring this year, said when Trump calls stories he doesn't like "fake news," he "should be the figure of suspicion, not the press."

Just saw this so I'm posting, because I'm still pissed about Trump's idea that the "press has too much freedom," etc.

And again, Trump and his supporters just denounce whatever they don't like as fake. I find it actually alarming, the way the "fake news" phrase is thrown around.
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