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Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 1149
Location: Crippling Velocity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:28 am 
 

Erotetic wrote:
acid_bukkake wrote:
Taking this quote out of context exposes a very defeatist viewpoint. "Bad things happen so why bother."

Taken fully in context, one person may not be able to tip the balance, but refusing to be a part of that system due to personal ethics is somehow worthless?


if it's nothing better than your "personal ethics", then it's as worthless as the Christians decrying rock music as a sin.

you'll die, convincing no one of your views, because your views are just your biases, not any kind of philosophical truth, and the world will carry on happily without your nonsense on stilts strutting around.

Sometimes people are convinced by the ideas/arguments of others. I'd say it happens pretty much all the time. In fact, very little of ones sum of ideas is the product of only ones own thoughts. Most vegans are not raised as vegans, so clearly they became convinced at some point by something.

The reason people in all times have bothered spreading their views in speech, text, film, and so, is because they do in fact change the views of others. Not necessarily the ones of the people the debate is first and foremost directed at, but there are way more readers/listeners of debates than the debators themselves. Often cynics will be focused on the unchanged views of the debators and forget about the changed views of people who don't participate actively in the debate. Also they are often focused on immediate effects rather than long-term effects on the views of others, and effects from an accumulative process where a growing sum of arguments and reasonings over time change someones views.

And I don't see why anyone who seriously have the view that spreading views is worthless would join a forum and post their views on various topics. Posting the view that spreading views is worthless is shooting oneself in the foot. Since it's such an obvious own-goal, it seems more like they pretend to have that view to end a particular discussion they dislike, while having no plans to stop spreading their views in other contexts.

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raspberrysoda
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:51 pm
Posts: 727
Location: You know, that place
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:15 am 
 

I'm not in favor of it at all, but if you do it, mind your own fucking business please. I live in a country in which the vegan and vegetarian percentage of the population has risen drastically, and most vegan terrorists are based here too- which changed my stance on it completely.

There's a HUGE difference between moderate veganism, which doesn't push its ideology in my face, to the people who just walk to you to just push it in your face. It happened to me once, and as a teenager it seemed like they just wanted an easy target to add to their cult. Their "facts" were so wrong and one-sided which made my friends (who stood in the side and watched) and especially me laugh in their pathetic faces.

Veganism turned into a cult. I can barely remember ANY vegan person that didn't stick their ideology in my face/and or tried to convert me to it. There is no difference between extreme veganism, Jehovah's Witness, or Scientology anymore.

I also recall a few "shows" extreme vegans set up here, including tying up naked people in cages, throwing animal heads in fountains, extreme forms of vandalism, or grilling carcasses of dead cats in a central park in one of the biggest cities here to show that "there is no difference between grilling cats or cows" which is really damn stupid.
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volutetheswarth
Our Lady of Perpetual Butthurt

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
Posts: 3488
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:33 am 
 

Dembo wrote:
And I don't see why anyone who seriously have the view that spreading views is worthless would join a forum and post their views on various topics. Posting the view that spreading views is worthless is shooting oneself in the foot. Since it's such an obvious own-goal, it seems more like they pretend to have that view to end a particular discussion they dislike, while having no plans to stop spreading their views in other contexts.
Oh shut the fuck up with your indirect personal attacks, Dembo. I know you've got a wee boner for me but do you have any idea how utterly arrogant you are? Like for real, you're insanely arrogant and stubborn as evidenced by the Obituary thread where you were called out by everyone when you argued pointless semantics over a mediocre album cover.
Morn Of Solace to Dembo wrote:
Last time i've heard this unneccessarily pedantic way of discussion was when i was working with criminal defending lawyers :lol:
Remember that? The album cover still looks very mediocre btw.

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Dembo
Dumbo

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:58 am
Posts: 1149
Location: Crippling Velocity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:02 am 
 

I replied to Erotetic's last paragraph.

And I never went against the view that the cover was mediocre, whatever that has to do with this thread... Don't change the subject to something from a whole different forum section.

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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
Posts: 981
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:41 am 
 

Erotetic wrote:
your citations say nothing about honey or wool or leather or circus animals or puppy mills or any other vegan issue.

Nor did your post that I quoted and responded to. Again, here is what you said, quoted directly so as to not misconstrue:
Erotetic wrote:
there's no health issue that happens to mean you can't consume meat or dairy and can't wear woolen socks or leather shoes. veganism is only an ethical position, anything else is merely a vegetarian diet.

Then I supplied links from an organization dedicated to types of allergies, saying nothing of honey, wool, leather, etc.

One could say you might be an idiot if you're responding to an argument that never happened.

The other topics are moral ones directly related to animal-based industries. If you are vegan for ethical purposes then you do not wear wool or leather. Honey, silk, and other animal by-products that can be obtained without harm to the creator is up for debate among vegans themselves.

Erotetic wrote:
if it's nothing better than your "personal ethics", then it's as worthless as the Christians decrying rock music as a sin.

And if their moral grounds say they shouldn't partake but they won't take away your personal choice on the matter, then who the fuck cares?
Quote:
you'll die, convincing no one of your views, because your views are just your biases, not any kind of philosophical truth, and the world will carry on happily without your nonsense on stilts strutting around.

Good for you. I'm glad you bring nothing to this discussion beyond "PEOPLE WHO THINK DIFFERENT THAN ME ARE STUPID." Here's your cookie, there's your juice box.
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TheMizwaOfMuzzyTah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 1792
Location: Inside your computer.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:27 am 
 

Spoiler: show
Image


Last edited by Morrigan on Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User was warned for this shitpost

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Lugubrious333
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:38 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:19 pm 
 

Someones personal choices are someones personal choices, and truthfully a meat eaters lifestyle is impacting our world way more than a vegans. I am a meat eater by the way, although I try to be a conscientious one now and again and mainly eat fish and bird.

We are not supposed to eat that much red meat, maybe once a month or so and that is it. Our bodies literally do not digest it, and we have never had this much access to red meat in our existence.

Pigs are as smart as dogs, while there is environmental reasons I question eating cow, they are dumb and if you got a cow and you kill it and eat it, good for you. Pigs though, I actually question based on the creature itself.

Factory farming is fucked, and lesser quality of meat.

The whole meat and milk industry exists on government subsidies, in other words, WELFARE. Let me be clear about this fact of how this works, a hamburger would never cost a buck if tax payers money was not used to lower the costs. If you eat meat or drink milk, YOU DO SUPPORT WELFARE. How more people are not aware of this shows how fucking stupid most people are.


If we were an advanced society, we would all be fishing in clean rivers and hunting for bigger game, which means no sport hunting and making sure the habitat deer lives in can thrive. We would also all have local chicken coops right next to our neighborhood garden, help grow and take care of our food ourselves.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 12247
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:46 pm 
 

TheMizwaOfMuzzyTah wrote:
[lameness]

If you're going to shitpost at least have the decency to be funny.
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circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
Posts: 1075
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:46 pm 
 

Quote:
We are not supposed to eat that much red meat, maybe once a month or so and that is it. Our bodies literally do not digest it, and we have never had this much access to red meat in our existence.

While I agree (as do most dietitians) that too much is bad for you due to saturated fat, the statement that we "literally don't digest it" is just not correct. It takes more enzymes and chewing, that's all.

Otherwise the saturated fat wouldn't hurt anyone and the calories wouldn't even make you gain weight, since you wouldn't be digesting it or obtaining calories from it.
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Erotetic
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:05 pm
Posts: 1360
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:35 am 
 

awheio wrote:
Erotetic wrote:
there's no health issue that happens to mean you can't consume meat or dairy and can't wear woolen socks or leather shoes. veganism is only an ethical position, anything else is merely a vegetarian diet.

Quote:
you might be an idiot if you're confusing veganism with merely a vegetarian's diet.


Veganism entails a more restrictive diet than vegetarianism, and in it's most typical usage, "veganism" denotes just a more restrictive diet. Vegetarianism is compatible with drinking milk, eating cheese, etc. Veganism is not. You are confused about the distinction.


Veganism entails no use of animal products. it is not merely a diet.
try talking to vegans some time. you seem to think 'veganism' is a synonym for 'strict vegetarianism', but it isn't.
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Last edited by Erotetic on Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Erotetic
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:05 pm
Posts: 1360
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:39 am 
 

Quote:
We are not supposed to eat that much red meat, maybe once a month or so and that is it. Our bodies literally do not digest it, and we have never had this much access to red meat in our existence.


I think it's around 300g a week (according to the Harvard study), but I can't be fucking going to pub med.
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Erotetic
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:05 pm
Posts: 1360
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:44 am 
 

acid_bukkake wrote:
Erotetic wrote:
your citations say nothing about honey or wool or leather or circus animals or puppy mills or any other vegan issue.

Nor did your post that I quoted and responded to. Again, here is what you said, quoted directly so as to not misconstrue:
Erotetic wrote:
there's no health issue that happens to mean you can't consume meat or dairy and can't wear woolen socks or leather shoes.

Then I supplied links...saying nothing of honey, wool, leather, etc.


apparently you need a grammar lesson as well as an ethics one.
note the conjuction and the lack of comma.
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into_the_pit
Veteran

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:40 pm
Posts: 2863
Location: Hedonist Occupation Government
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:13 am 
 

ew... this thread is almost more embarrassing and painful to read than the post-US election talk in the old FFA thread. it's only about some people's attitudes on animal products, guys. nothing more.
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Erotetic
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:05 pm
Posts: 1360
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:33 am 
 

into_the_pit wrote:
ew... this thread is almost more embarrassing and painful to read than the post-US election talk in the old FFA thread. it's only about some people's attitudes on animal products, guys. nothing more.


you could say the same thing about a thread on slavery or rape, 'it's just about people's opinions'. vegans tend to have a broader idea of what animal abuse is than the rest of us, and they think it's important in just the same was as some people think sex trafficking and child abuse are--ethical issues, not merely 'which band I prefer' aesthetic issues.
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acid_bukkake
SAD!

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:45 am
Posts: 981
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:01 am 
 

Erotetic wrote:
apparently you need a grammar lesson as well as an ethics one.
note the conjuction and the lack of comma.

When going the grammar nazi route, one should try to use proper grammar and spelling themselves.

Please, do give me an ethics lesson as it pertains to veganism. This should be fun.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 10946
Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:52 am 
 

Guys, this is (part of) why the Symposium was shut down. Try to talk about the topic instead of descending into petty semantic debates. If necessary, PM one another until terminology can be agreed upon, then come back here and get back to business.
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Erotetic
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:05 pm
Posts: 1360
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:24 pm 
 

acid_bukkake wrote:
Erotetic wrote:
apparently you need a grammar lesson as well as an ethics one.
note the conjuction and the lack of comma.

When going the grammar nazi route, one should try to use proper grammar and spelling themselves.


if it's pertinent to the argument like your aforementioned errors were. just realise you were wrong and move on. my neglect of the capslock key right now has no relevance, unlike your blunder.
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awheio
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:00 am
Posts: 523
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:37 pm 
 

Erotetic wrote:
Veganism entails no use of animal products. it is not merely a diet.
try talking to vegans some time. you seem to think 'veganism' is a synonym for 'strict vegetarianism', but it isn't.


I had written a much sassier response, but the moderator post was made while I was typing it, and in light of it I decided not to post. But, pal, look up "veganism" in dictionaries and/or encyclopedias. It is ambiguous between the diet and the "philosophy". Unlike you, I take great pains to avoid speaking with certitude when I am ignorant. I have indeed spoken to, and am close with, many vegans. But even then, how our friends use terms is not the absolute law of what those terms mean. Meaning is diffuse across the entire language community. The moderators are right that bickering about definitions is silly -- except to point out that meaning is however people use the term. The term has widely established uses of either kind.

Your attitude is very similar to those who bicker about whether "atheism" means "believing there is no god" or "not believing there is a god". It means both and neither -- its meaning in a particular context is ambiguous until constrained by user intentions, contextual parameters, etc.

Humility. Research. Google.

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Erotetic
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:05 pm
Posts: 1360
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:46 am 
 

awheio wrote:
The term has widely established uses of either kind.


such as? (for example, show me some vegan books or vegan communities that are merely about strict vegetarianism ... I'm sure there are books that only focus on a vegan's diet, but I mean something that says 'i am vegan, and vegan only pertains to my diet'). show me self-proclaimed vegans who consider leather and wool total non-issues.
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awheio
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:00 am
Posts: 523
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:38 am 
 

Vegan.com states: "Can you become a vegan through diet alone? Absolutely, since, as we will see in the next section, vegan was originally defined purely in dietary terms. A handful of vegans (usually abrasively) insist that veganism is a lifestyle, not a diet. In other words, you don’t get to join the vegan club until you go beyond food to purge your life of leather, wool, and animal-derived cosmetics. Oftentimes, these vegans are doing the animals a grave disservice by defining the vegan concept in the most rigid and exclusionary way possible. These are people would love to revoke your vegan card if they find out you haven’t yet taken your 10-year-old leather snow-boots to the thrift store."

I googled "what does veganism mean to you", and the first result says: "Veganism is a stricter form of vegetarianism; like vegetarians, vegans don’t eat any animals that have been killed and also avoid animal products altogether, so that means no eggs or dairy products and, usually, no honey either."

But your set-up is inappropriate. Whether they think leather and wool are "total non-issues" is just totally peripheral to whether they think they are constitutive of veganism. For example, someone might identify as a vegan because of their diet, and choose such a diet for ethical reasons, and for similar ethical reasons wish they could abstain from leather and wool, but fail to resist the temptation.

But those are just the first two search results. Again. Look at dictionaries, encyclopedias, the internet... I have known scores of vegans who have used the term in ways other than the limited sense you provide, but of course I can't present them here as evidence. See also basically this thread before your intervention.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 10946
Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:33 am 
 

What did I just say?
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