I know there's a high chance that this kind of topic has been discussed to death in the past, so if it has then I don't mind this topic being closed.

I'm assuming several of the users here know about Anton LaVey and his Church of Satan. I also assume that some of you may have heard about the Order of Nine Angles and other "satanic" organizations (such as Joy of Satan.)

Black Metal has always been associated with Satanism but, is it true that there's such a relationship?

A few weeks ago I watched one of Varg's videologs on his Youtube account and there he categorically denies that the big four of the Norwegian Inner Circle had anything to do with Satanism. He even goes further and claims that none of the involved musicians had a positive image of LaVey and his Church.

Yet fast forward into the present and Black Metal is mostly about Satanism, with bands such as Sargeist, Horna, Darkened Nocturn Slaughtercult and Abigor making it quite obvious that they praise the Horned God.

But are these musicians actually worshipping the Devil, or ascribing to the philosophy of some dead guy or are they just using Satan for shock value?

Are there any Black Metal musicians who consider themselves Satanists?

Does a bear shit in the woods?

Are Satanism and black metal related?

You mean the black metal that's so intensely intertwined with Satan that it's the only genre where people will argue up and down that any band that is sonically a complete clone of Darkthrone yet has lyrics antithetical to Satanism is not actually a black metal band? You mean that black metal?

Nah.

God I hate those twats. It's mind numbingly dumb trying to explain to someone why black metal is no different than any other genre. The cognitive dissonance going on within some is seriously worrying.

I think most black metal bands are just athiests who use Satan as a philosophical idea. Some take things a bit farther and actually worship a literal Satan (Watain and Dissection), and fewer are Laveyan Satanists, (King Diamond)

Really? I thought bands were diversifying the meaning - i.e. taking the sounds + mixing lyrics about occultism, nationalism, etc.
It was in the past that it was strictly about Satan - i.e. you could be death/doom/heavy/thrash/whatever - if the metal is satanic, it was also black metal.

The sole mention of "the big four of (add any fucking genre here)" makes any thread cringe-inducing.

Personally I don't think Black Metal was related to Satanism when it began. Hell, even Varg clarified the issue in one of his Youtube videos by stating that none of the members from the Inner Circle were Satanists (and in fact had a very poor opinion on LaVey.)

However, some BM musicians do view themselves as Satanists yet they seem to have their own take on Satan (this Shatraug interview sheds light on what or who he believes Satan to be: http://houseofthewhipcordzine.blogspot.cl/2012/09/shatraug-interview.html.)

Seeing that the LHP is personal it's entirely plausible that there can be people who hold Satan in high regard yet without feeling the need to ascribe to any organizations nor their dogmas.

Satanic or not, I suppose what matters is how the music makes you feel.

Black metal is as much about Satan as death metal is about... well, death. Which means, very. Of course that is a generalization and there are plenty of exceptions to literally any widely perceived genre conventions in art, but it's kind of an obvious thing to get right?

I know Satan is a constant in BM, yet what I was getting at was the relationship between it and Satanism, which is not the same as this has been the denomination given to different philosophies and religions around the world (LaVey, ONA, Joy of Satan, etc.)

Shrieking about Satan doesn't necessarily mean the ones doing it believe in him/ the idead of him.

Nah. Black Metal is about love and peace and God. Dontchaknow?

Everything you need to know about Black Metal is in one book. I read it and despite finding BM to be mostly shit I am an internet black metal expert.

There are several prominent orthodox or LaVeyan Satanists in BM, so yes this still applies.

What do you mean by "orthodox"?

What else could I possibly mean by that? You have LaVeyan Satanism and Orthodox Satanism... I suppose you could also call it theistic Satanism.

I'm sure Vargs claims are pretty much on the spot. He never denied the Satanic imagery or lingo but that anyone were serious in practising Satanism as a religion or philosophy. And remember LaVeys church is generally viewed negatively in the black metal community. I'm sure there are several reasons for this but I think it is mainly about the CoS not being the other side of the coin to Christianity. At least not in the darkness, horror and evil kind of way black metal musicians prefer. Obviously black metal Satanism has developed since then but I still think the roots are there. They may call it Anti-Cosmic Satanism and dress it up in academic lingo but as far as Im concerned it is all about new clothes not new content.

I think most black metal musicians still aren't actual Satanists (even by their own definition). I think most use it as an image. There are however artists that has taken this seriously as well. LaVeyans version or, more commonly, some other branch of the Satanism umbrella.

It is very clear however that black metal lyrics are heavily inspired by Satan and thing related to this kind of imagery. So despite if the artists are actual Satanists or not their lyrics are often of a Satanic nature (in one way or another).

Thanks for the thorough (and serious) response InnesI. What you mention about BM musicians disliking the CoS makes complete sense. The CoS was always concerned with being seen as a socially acceptable institution and BM musicians have always striven for the opposite.

Anyway, I like how musicians take the idea of Satan and make it their own without caring much for what the populace thinks of them. Maybe that's why the CoS has become such an irrelevant institution these days.

I think the black metal crowd often is just as directed by public opinion as the CoS is but in the reverse way. That is they are always reactionary, always striving to be anti-this or anti-that (of course the most extreme stance taking is being anti-cosmos - lol). In this way they are directed by the majority culture just as much because everything is a response to it. Which is of course the big paradox of all teenage rebellion as well. They want to break free from majority culture and they do so by doing what this culture thinks is not ok (to some degree) therefore being totally dependent on this in order to rebel.

I actually find this with the CoS as well but they are reacting more to an older view of Christianity. The majority portion of The Satanic Bible that can be called philosophical ("the book of lucifer") is built up as a commentary and denial of certain Christian claims for example. But it is clearly done in a different way than most black metal.

The CoS became largely irrelevant decades ago when the organization ceased to be something where things happened. Now it seems to be mostly a club for people who wants a small red membership card they can flash. I think they could be much more relevant but they choose to pretty much just be a register of Satanists and not much else.

As It has been already mentioned most of the musician don´t actually believe in Satan. Its a way to express their hate/opposition/critic against Cristiany, and obviously way to provoke.

There are a few band who perhaps are true satanits like Dissection was, but its difficult to know when the attitude is real when isn´t.

Not a black metal band but Draconian(doom-gothic from Sweden) claimed in the past that they were Luciferians.

It sucks when the only way people can define themselves is by what they are not. I understand the need for rebellion but doing things just to prove how "anti" they are shows lack of depth in their weltanshauung.

Unbelievably, there's a message in this video that kinda explains everything you're asking about.. and more!

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Many black metal bands are pagans or National Socialist. Especially in Slavic countries. Varg Vikernes/Burzum influence many new metalheads to be pagans and into politics. Actually, I don’t know some metalhead to be Satanist or believe in those things. I think most of those so-called ’satanist’ bands or fans are just looking for public attention.

You may even be right here, it's just that no one knows that because most of these NSBM bands are godawful bedroom projects that no one gives a shit about.

One note of interest is also that, despite being entitled "De Mysteriis Dom. Sathanas", the album's lyrics do not mention Satan by name, and if you read interviews with Dead, he seemed to be more concerned with painting different atmospheres, rather than actively worship an evil deity.

Now, obviously there is a ritualistic feel to the whole album, and the lyrics do touch upon darkness. But I would say that "death" is a more prominent theme, than Satanism.

Hm, you are not right. NSBM bands in Slavic or in Eastern European countries attract big crowds and scene is very vibrant there. They don’t make only concerts, but they are also very active among political organisations.

Next month there will be the biggest NSBM concert in Ukraine with lot of bands and probably around 2,000 people.

Well yeah, there are exceptions, like M8L8TH, Kroda, Nokturnal Mortum, and (recently) Graveland. Those are the exceptional bands that put a lot of work into producing music. I can guarantee you otherwise however that there is a large mass of NS sewage in the darkest corners of the underground you will find sooner or later through clicking on the "Random Band" button on the main site.

Many NSBM musicians are not actually professional musicians. They are more focused on political activism and use music only for propaganda. I will say they are more political and ideological soldiers than musicians. But, to be random metalhead and to be NSBM metalhead is totally different. I don’t think they even classify themselves like metalheads, because I know Varg and many others from NSBM community see metalheads like degenerate subculture created by Jews and Hollywood. Many of them have daily pressure from the police and state.

This thread should never have gotten this long. Seriously guys, this is a bad joke.

You're correct. I had forgotten about that.

So I suppose BM's roots have always been pagan and Satan is just one of the many archetypes musicians use to express their discontent towards the modern world, I can sort of relate to that (despite living in a society with very little ancient heritage.)

While I don't mind having people from other countries living on my own, I understand NSBM musicians wanting to fight against the loss of their cultural roots. One just needs to look at Europe right now to understand the current situation is becoming unsustainable.

As much as everyone wants to think I made this topic to troll, I was genuinely curious about this subject and now that it has become clear the mods can close it if so they desire.

Satan entered black metal through horror movies, not philosophy. Satan is a cool anti-hero character for people who are into dark and morbid things, who don't like xtianity, and who enjoy blowing the mind of Tipper Gore at every opportunity. The advantages of Satan run deeper, however, and when these artists started thinking about the figure they had been enjoying casually they realized he worked on multiple levels. Historically he's been a major figure in xtian theology and was identified (by xtians) with pagan gods, creating a connection between active opposition to xtianity and paganism that was useful to these black metal guys at the same time they were developing an interest in pagan aesthetics.

Satan was there at the beginning because he's a cartoony villain who edgy kids liked (the early BMers were undeniably teenage edgelords) and he grew and evolved with black metal into an almighty patron saint of the genre.

I agree with everything except that he has evolved into a "patron saint of the genre". While it is true that many have moved past the old horror-Satan territory it is still quite present and where black metal has evolved I feel has been more in a non-Satanic direction. I feel like Satan has become less important to the genre.

Of course not all bands take him seriously, but the overwhelming majority at least pay *some* homage. "Yes, yes, may hE bless us. Now let's eat!"

It's true that black metal exists outside the purely satanic, religious genre that the Norwegians popularised. For a while it seemed that taking Satan out of the equation generally took out something essential to black metal musically as well, but that principle seems increasingly anachronistic.

Slavic people supporting NS bands is something that never will stop amazing me. But who understands humanity when there are NS supporters in lands like Mexico o Colombia?

Which bands will play?

Don't expect a response. He got banned for douching up this thread.

Paganism and Pagan Metal. Related?

Have you guys heard of this brutal metal band called Skillet?

No, and it doesn't seem to be a real issue/concern for metal fans from the first world, but rather third world metal fans like us (I'm Chilean too) where you can see those kids buying the whole satanic theme and taking it for themselves. Why? I don't really know, I guess it's a way to vent out their anger, to get some attention, or to just belong, as sadly, there aren't many ways to express and validate your feelings/emotions when you're a 15 yo, uneducated, ignorant, and ultimately, dumb South American metal-head.

This book is one of the most boring, unreadable, non-insightful "books" I have ever read. If it has any merit, it's the fact it has been praised and overrated to death for so many years without any real substance behind it. You know, like you do with most metal bands...