Your argument from fear has no basis in reality. Not a single barrier has been erected near Occupy Toronto. Other than the park itself which we are occupying, nothing in the neighbourhood has been disrupted whatsoever and we have been maintaining good relations with most of the residents and businesses in the area.

The Wall Street encampment would actually be better off with less police presence and more freedom allowed the camp. They aren't even allowed to have portopotties on site. I can't believe what Toronto would be like without those...

Not really no, had nothing of value to add. We already knew that Police were being incredibly friendly and helpful in areas where protesters were not acting like a bunch of little heathens. It just goes to show that the law is on your side when you obey proper procedures. We also knew that not all homeless people were being targeted and pushed away, but in some cases it was happening.

I have not gave much thought to OWS lately, the news and people around are starting to report/talk less and less about it. Which until something else "big" happens, is about what I figured would happen. Life goes on for the rest of us.




Except you know, the fact that a few hundred people were actively breaking the law and responded with hostility when the Police moved in to clear the park. Mind you this was after they were denied entry by protesters even after a beating and sexual assault had been reported. No basis in reality eh? Even if no crime had been reported, they do not owe anything to the protesters. Web posted a link that showed just how friendly LE can be if protesters do not step to far out of line.

We don't roll that way in America, barricades and Police presence are commonplace at any demonstration where passions and tension are heated. The presence of power has to be known, that presence alone keeps the rowdy ones from stepping out of line. If they still choose to step out of line, the infrastructure is already in place there to deal with them. I am remarkably pleased with how everything has been handled so far and is continuing to be handled with OWS.

THIS IS AMERICA! THIS IS OUR COUNTRY!

Maybe America needs to reconsider the way it rolls, because things are much more peaceful and much less tense here.

That is your view, and you are certainly entitled to it. In order for that to become reality however, you have to have more power and influence as opposed to those who wield it. OWS has neither to be perfectly honest. In the scheme of things against the backdrop of the population of the United States, they are a minority in terms of general supporters. They become even more fragmented when you start to think about how many divisions and split offs there would be if OWS ever attempted to decide on a single platform, message, and tactic to go about things. The extremes between all the sects in the overall group are far to diverse.

Not that I am trying to talk down their accomplishment. They deserve major kudos just for being able to get so many people from such a diverse array of backgrounds together in one place at the same time. I am just not seeing any long long significant change coming from all of this. If I am wrong, I assure you I will be the first one to call myself out on it and admit that I was wrong.

Unfortunately there'll always be a few "Waingro's" masquerading and hiding behind law enforcement agencies.

A few weeks ago, I was much more optimistic about this movement, but now that I've given it some more thought, I have to agree with you here. I think the most likely reason why OWS will not lead to the revolutionary changes that the protestors are calling for is because even though a majority of the American people realize the corruption and greed that exists at the top in our financial system, they are more or less content with their own lives at the moment. Most realize that things could be better for the lower and middle classes, but no where near enough people are willing to set aside their personal lives and fight alongside other like-minded people for change. It hasn't reached that breaking point, yet. I and people that are close to me, even though we speak occasionally of and in favor of OWS, really don't feel obliged to leave our homes for days or weeks on end and participate in the protests. All of us are either working or at school, have roofs over our heads and more than enough food to eat. We are content. Whether or not this mindset is good or bad with the way things are for other people, it's reality for us.

Would I be wrong in assuming that people are becoming tired of OWS? Even though how optimistic I was about it weeks ago, I've slowly become somewhat indifferent towards the movement. I still support the general animosity towards big banks and Wall Street, but I've found myself becoming less and less concerned with the actual happenings in the protests.

I feel that because the numbers that are appearing at these protests are still too small, it is not worth putting people in danger of police enforcement. These people being injured out there are risking their well-being in vain at this point. The only point at which these protests would actually be worthwhile is by being far too large for any police force to contain. It's apparent that this is not the case right now. Other than a few million dollars in overtime, there isn't much worthwhile strain on the police force. With that said, I admire those willing to take the time out of their lives to support something they believe strongly in.

When a few thousand people are willing to fight the police, they will lose. When a few million people are out on the streets, they are the power, not the police. With numbers that large, the police will be a non-factor. Maybe a few skirmishes here and there, but when you have 100,000 or more angry protestors with nothing left to lose against a small faction of police officers, less than a thousand, there is no contest there. Those protestors will stand and occupy whatever and wherever they please. The power is in numbers. OWS doesn't have that yet.

This movement is a success, however, in that it is bringing real problems to the forefront. I'm not sure how many people were in the know at how mind-bogglingly corrupt our financial institutions have been before OWS, but it is safe to assume a lot more are now. When the lower classes are much worse off in the future and more people have nothing to lose, then there will be the window of opportunity for something to change. As bad as things are for millions of Americans right now, they just aren't bad enough for enough people for there to be an outrage that is seriously capable of real change. If things are left to continue as they are now, that time will inevitably come. I think because power at the top is so concentrated and furiously protected, Americans will have to let the natural proceedings of financial corruption run its course and crumble the entire country on its own. A few thousand protestors in a few hundred cities across the country is not enough to persuade those in control to let go of what they have.

When enough people lose faith in their financial and government systems, all hell will break lose. Hasn't history taught that this is usually the way wealthy nations go out? That is the only time at which things will change. It's unfortunate, but I'm beginning to think our financial system will eradicate itself through corruption and mismanagement before any group of protestors are able to force it to turn around. That time will come, but it's not now.

Maybe the people who would be at these protests are simply too busy doing their jobs:



http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/11/ ... -jobs.html

Tea party: "they tirrrkk errrr JERRRBBSS!!"

Lots of anti-OWS sentiment in msm lately.

http://the53.tumblr.com/

Love it, some of these are absolutely fantastic.

I'm glad they made it inspite of financial deregulation and government corruption.

Oh and aren't the police supposed to serve the people? I expect them to join in the fight if things get worse enough.

They'll join the fight alright, not on the side of the protesters though.

The 53%ers are losers. The rest of the people don't pay no taxes, they simply don't pay one particular tax out of a host of others they do pay. It's a pretty sad expression of the phenomenon that prevents populist action in this country particularly; as long as the middle class here has someone to look down on, they are perfectly willing to accept their own exploitation.

Also pretty funny that one of the messages on the first page says "get off your asses" when I just posted that statistic indicating that the OWS folks do have jobs. Guess reality isn't important when you're a petty propagandist.

Some people in my town were apparently occupying an abandoned car lot. A SWAT team was called on them and they were all taken to a county jail on a city bus. This all just happened in the past 6 hours. Pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

That is a lovely Anarchist flag they have hanging in the window. "Stop taking orders, start taking over", I would say the message there is pretty clear cut. Great job on Law Enforcement for bringing down the hammer on them. Allowing them to group together and plan for extended periods of time is the worst possible thing, it is great that Officers are moving in with live fire weapons to handle the more fringe aspects of OWS.

Overall I am extremely pleased with how things are going. Harsher crackdowns are in the works with city officials finally getting fed up with the entire charade. The suicide, shooting death, drug overdoses, sexual assaults, theft, counter-protest from small business owners due to loss of business, and so on, is really taking its toll and giving the Law the ammunition it needs. Approval is dropping for OWS as a whole and a counter movement with the 53%ers actively speaking out against them are putting the pressure on OWS that is needed.


On a lighter note, OWS flocked to an Marine as a martyr, here is a Marine I would be happy to stand beside.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/quee ... L0vKMOjS4H








Hilarious photo, the protester looks absolutely shocked. I applaud Mr Hiltuens actions to a great degree, this is the type of thing I am ecstatic to see. Kevin Hiltunen is just another citizen like any of us, retired Law Enforcement and a Marine Corps Vet. It is a very inspiring thing to see, especially with the outcry from the 53%er and others speaking out against OWS. No one has to take OWS shit if they do not want to, every American citizen has the exact same rights as the protesters. Note the comments under that article on that website, wonderful stuff. I hope it continues to ring home loud and clear that they are not the majorities voice.

You seem to consistently argue in your other posts that the occupy movement has no teeth, that it is not a threat to society, that's its essentially a joke.

So tell me why the use of assault rifles against an unarmed population is justified?

I think you're trolling this thread, if you're not then you have an unhealthy obsession with violence.

That is a great story. Someone tries to point out the corruption of an elected official and that person is thrown out because they didn't go through the proper bureaucratic channels.

It's also great that the cops had to bring a SWAT team to deal with a few protesters. Really goes to show how cowardly police have become.

sortalikeadream, T51b seemed legit early in the thread, then it seemed like he was intentionally playing up his positions to a cartoonish degree to troll, but I think it's come to light that he really is a mixed up guy with a creepy hard-on for authority.

Yeah, it's a nice thing to see how well our government handles protesters in an ABANDONED CAR LOT. Good god, next thing you know they'll want to bomb the White House or be looting banks.

You are mixing two different groups together. The Anarchist fringe and your average OWS protester are two very different entities. Many OWS themselves have tried extremely hard to distance themselves from the more violent aspects of the Anarchist element that has exploited the situation. OWS in its self has no real power to the degree we were discussing. The fringe elements has no real power either to force change, but they could do a lot of damage if allowed to operate unchecked. Hell, just one or two extremist carrying out actions can have devastating consequences, much less allowing them to organize and plan.

It is best to nip this type of stuff in the bud before it gets out of control. Police are doing a good job breaking up and arresting the ones who are openly spreading an Anarchist or violent message, and doing things like confiscating the concrete blocks that people were bringing into the camp to use as weapons against Officers. I am not sure why anyone would be arguing otherwise, OWS is extremely smart to distance themselves from said individuals. Being associated with militant Anarchist is not going to do the protest any favors.

Well that clears that up, then. Sending in SWAT teams with machine guns to take down a handful of fringe extremists who are so fringe and extreme that they have conquered an abandoned building and demonstrated zero propensity for violence is totally fine. They are undesirables, and if we don't take them down ASAP it'll be 9/11 all over again.

The only extremism here is the extreme cowardice and extreme overreaction of police.

[edit]: Can't forget, they are spreading dangerous ideas too, and in the land of the free, home of the brave, etc, some ideas are a crime. Classy.

Those Officers are trained and practice all types of scenarios in extreme repetition on a constant basis, they go in expecting the worse. I understand that it would be more appealing to supporters of said people if they just let them do their own thing and assemble in abandoned parking lots. Despite the fact that Anarchist had been attributed to the acts of violence in recent weeks, and even still despite the fact that those individuals in question even had an Anarchist flag hanging in the window of the area they were squatting.

So ok, moving past the fact that the police had every legal right to remove said group of Anarchist who were occupying an area illegally. The argument remains that going in with life ammunition was excessive. Which brings us back again to the point where Police have rules and training they follow. They go in preparing for the worse. What happens one day if they go in to arrest some people without weapons drawn and said person pulls out a handgun and shoots one of the Officers? There is no point to even risk that situation, they were in the wrong to begin with. Going in with weapons drawn does not give said suspects a chance to respond violently. For all intensive purposes it appears in that situation Officers acted professionally in handling the situation.

And hey, I am all for freedom of speech. I sincerely do not care what anyone else thinks or preachers. The one exception being when said beliefs infringe on the rights of, or puts others in danger. Just a bit of a hunch, but I have a notion that Anarchist who have such slogans as "Stop taking orders start taking over" are not the types to follow legal channels of voicing grievances. As such is the case, Law Enforcement will deal with them as need be, just as any other fringe group should be dealt with.

No one is attacking them for their ideas. They are free to believe what they want to believe. When they illegally occupy an area and voice said ideals in a manner that incites violence and causes possible harm to life and property, they are not in the right. It really is as simple as that.

Since this thread has primarily served as running commentary to the developments of OWS, I propose we either split into a new thread which will act as a forum to discuss personal initiatives, to transmit materials for training/education, to inform of developments with local protests, and so forth, if anyone is interested, or we could incorporate that into this thread. Talking about OWS is not enough. I know that there are voices of freedom/progressivism/radicalism/democracy on these boards that can contribute insight and information, but refrain from such because of the changing focus of this thread or because the discussion so far has not been up to par on all fronts-there are many reasons. A new thread with a different focus would rectify this, hopefully.

If no one feels that this is a worthwhile endeavor, then those that do can feel free to contact me as I would like to contribute in whatever way I can.

What if they had hand guns? There was no reason to believe they did but we better take something bigger than a hand gun. What if they have something bigger too? Better send in a whole squad with tanks and bazookas. Every boyscout knows to be prepared, but law enforcement has far surpassed the point of being plain old paranoid cowards and are actively looking to make more trouble than they are supposedly out to prevent by being the first to escalate every encounter into violence. In my world, police should respond to, not be the originators of violence.

So what if they had a sign? So what if they have radical ideas? That is only speech. By dealt with you clearly mean criminalized and prosecuted. You stand for the criminalization and prosecution of speech. Be honest about it for a change. Barring that, you apparently feel that squatting is a crime warranting violent crack down. This is obviously a philosophical point of contention, since while we all agree that squatting is illegal, we don't all feel it is wrong. It seems you equate "right" with "legal" and "wrong" with "illegal", but that's just a case of non-critical thinking we can disregard.

T51b can you prove that there are dangerous anarchists who are causing trouble in OWS camps? I'm 99% sure that you're confusing teenagers carrying Ⓐ signs with turn of the century terrorists like Leon Czolgosz, and I'm 1% sure that you're just lying.

The shooting and Molotov cocktail incidents in Occupy Oakland were well enough covered that nobody should have to bother answering that question for you, but to summarize: anarchists in Oakland took matters into their own hands. To the extent that some of the peaceful OWS protesters formed human shields to protect the police from harm, not the other way around.

Oh, I am being quite honest, I have no desire for said people to be silenced. They are completely within their rights to practice what ever they want to practice. Does not excuse them from having to follow the laws just like everyone else. I also completely understand that you feel some of said laws are unjust, and you are well within your right to express that point of view. It does not change the fact that it is in fact illegal, and Police Officers are well within their rights to enforce said laws.

The SWAT/Weapon argument does not have much more to be said on it I do not think. I am in favor of Officers going into a situation fully prepared for the worst, you are not. We have already seen fringe elements attempt to incite violence and riots in Oakland, there are video from it posted earlier. There has also been in recent days been a shooting death at one of the protest grounds. Once it is even suggested that protesters might *possibly* be armed, that is a whole new ball game. Police going in with weapons drawn destroys the chance of violent action against them being attempted. Do you think the protester who cut the officer and ran back into a crowd a couple of days ago would have done that if he had been holding a handgun? If people do not want to be put in a situation where an Officer points a firearm at them, they should not break the law. If they willingly break the law, they have no room to complain when there are consequences.

The Officers are not the cowards, they are just doing their jobs and making sure they get home to their families. The real cowards are those protesters and supporters who talk the talk, but still have not walked the walked even going into month three.







Are you serious? At least be like the rest and attempt to argue that the Anarchist element are "government infiltrators".




Yep, which I thought was an incredibly powerful image. The OWS protesters forming a human chain in front of the Law Enforcement Officers and shouting "PEACE PEACE PEACE" at the Anarchist while they tried to clash with Police. Those people deserve major kudos as well.

T51b, might does not make right nor does the law necessarily indicate what's right, they never have, you're going to have to get that into your thick head if you ever want to be taken seriously...

Also, fuck the militarized police, police officers are meant to be civilians, not soldiers nor tools of suppression...

So the protesters are cowards if they don't fight back, cowards if they defend themselves, cowards if they comply with police and cowards if they resist? The only thing you seem to think isn't cowardly to do is stand with cops, especially when the cops are in body armor and carrying machine guns. You have a really goofy notion of bravery, where grovelling to the biggest thug is the hallmark of true heroism. You don't even seem to genuinely appreciate what was genuinely heroic about the protesters shielding police, only that they were on the side of police in that instance.

You also have funny ideas about rule of law, where every crime is equally heinous and if jaywalkers get gunned down by police they had it coming. For all this talk about respecting law, you seem to only respect laws on the books and not the concept of law itself, which is what this is all about. Laws which are unjust aren't laws at all, and the way that is made apparent is by breaking them. If the powers that be can only respond to this with violence and suppression, rather than addressing the nature of the laws on the books and their quality and application, then there is no rule of law at all.

The cops are and have been cowards throughout this entire process, starting all the trouble, relying completely on overwhelming numbers and armament and crying foul when people stand up for themselves like they would anywhere else. This shows that our law enforcement system itself engenders cowardice and promotes fear of people and their ideas amongst its ranks. On the other hand, though it has thus far only taken baby steps, the protesters have shown themselves to be brave at heart by starting to resist and decry the layers or organized power that would have them shuffle home after they get off work and accept every law that gets passed and enforced as an inevitability. Both this fundamental cowardice on one side and this fundamental bravery on the other are apt to grow in proportion to one another so long as this struggle continues in any form, which provides a huge boon to the protesters.

Also, it has already been documented that police have put plants into protester ranks and that plants by political groups opposed to the protesters have attempted to cause trouble.

Whoops, didn't hear about the building occupation thing, but what does the shooting have to do with anarchists? According to the news the shooter might not even have been a member of OWS! Also, T51b has been talking very generally about The Anarchist Threat, and if the only place that can be pointed to where there has been any anarchist violence is also the place where police have been their move provocative, then really he's making a mountain out of a molehill.



Walk what walk? Seems like they talk about peaceful protests a lot, is that what you mean? For the most part OWS has been very peaceful despite constant needling from police.

Walk the walk? Getting physical with armed people trained and equiped for protests, you want to see a massacre?

The only way any protest has a chance to succeed is to follow Gadhi's peaceful philosophy. Any showing of violence will only give the authorities the excuse they need to come down very hard.
Here many peaceful protests get hijacked by other smaller groups intent on violence then everyone suffers.


Unfortunately some protestors have a hidden agenda (or are just in it for a thrill) and that is what spoils any chance "ordinary" people will have in voicing their concerns.

Taken seriously by who? An extremely small minority of posters on a web forum who support notions that have no real chance of succeeding? Oh no, what ever will I do without that support! I have little desire to convert anyone to my way of thinking, the majority of power already supports my rule of thought. If a particular group feels that way of thought is wrong and needs to be changed, it falls on them to have the power to change it. OWS simply does not.

Police are not meant to be civilians, Law Enforcement is by nature a paramilitary organization. Police Officers have certain powers above ordinary citizens that allow them to enforce laws and protect the lives and property of bystanders. If you do not like the idea of Police Officers in general, that is your own problem and one that you should probably come to terms with. I don't exactly see Law Enforcement restructuring its self anytime soon.




In general I do not let any of it bother me. I understand most of the blog comments about people saying they would fight the police in the streets and etc etc etc is just posturing and silly talk. Truth be told, it is probably not cowardice as much as intelligence that stops said people from assaulting an officer. I see nothing cowardly about complying with Police and protesting and voicing your concerns in a legal fashion. The Police appreciate your respect for the law and the rights of others, and your voice is still heard. That is what our country guarantees, the right to speak your mind no matter what is on it. The problem comes when laws are being broke and the rights of others are not respected.

I recognize that you feel these are unjust laws. You must also recognize that the majority does not share your view. Not even a fraction of it does, such notions are in the minority. That is why Law Enforcement is allowed to operate the way it does. If most people truly felt as passionate about how unjust the Police are being as a few of you do here, things would be very different. They do not however, they simply see it as Officers doing their job.

The Officers will continue to do as they do. There is no "unjust" notions when it comes to what they do. They are armed for a reason, to keep the peace. You can spin it anyway you want, it really comes down to two simple things.

1. If you do not want an Officer to point a live firearm at you, mace you, tase you, arrest you, or any combination of the above, do not break the law.

2. If you are willing to break the law for your beliefs, you acknowledge that it is in fact breaking the law and the Police do have the authority to stop you from breaking said law, no matter how unjust you feel it is. Said Police do have the right to employ certain less-than-lethal means to disperse unruly crowds, and they do have the right to defend themselves against possible threats. Calling foul on them for doing their jobs is a silly notion. If someone is that passionate about what they believe as to break the law, they can be prepared to handle the consequences.

The entire idea of "unjust laws" is a completely opinionated one and has no merit for what the protesters are being arrested for. Damage to public property, disrupting the peace, illegal squatting, trespassing, illegal drug use, assault, etc etc etc. Are all just laws that are there for the benefit of society. They are there for the benefit of citizens as a whole, not just a portion. Any one of those things I listed has the possibility to infringe on the rights of others in the area that they are taking place.

Protesters do have the right to voice their opinions, but they do not have the right to do it at the expense of others. They will lose to Law Enforcement every time on this. Aside from complaining on the internet, no one has any real recourse against this. That is just the way it is, at this point in time no single collective group has the power to change that.

And ok, do show me multiple and credible sources documenting said plants on OWS? I have been waiting on that one for a while. It is common place for Law Enforcement to infiltrate groups that have possible extremist elements in order to monitor and stop something tragic from happening before it does. Would love to read up on how undercover government agents were really the ones causing all this trouble though.






I agree with everything you said in the quote above 100%.

When the protest have remained completely peaceful and respected the rights of private property and bystanders in the area, I have been nothing but supportive. My entire issue lies with the ones who want to rock the boat and act as if they can bring about some type of real change by force and other illegal means. Those are the ones who are in for a rude awakening.

Lot in the news about Occupy Philadelphia recently. Although I'm relatively neutral about Occupy as a whole, I absolutely agree with Mayor Nutter about Occupy Philly. It's shit. There's no message, no leadership, no coordination, just a bunch of guys living in tents in the middle of fucking center city and being in everyone's way. It's just an excuse for people to smoke weed and get out of the house.

How many people do you think are doing this in Philly? I'm not in classes right now so I'm out of the area, but I haven't really heard anything about it.

That's kinda how it is(was? I don't even know anymore) in my city... in Canada. I guess they are showing solidarity? I know after a while, they finally came out with demands, which was nice, but for a while it seemed like a bunch of young people "fightin' the power" on the weekends.

I know right- what a glorious system! Now we just need to make sure that the poor, minorities, disabled, and disenfranchised never have access to power and we are good to go.

This oppression extends beyond even the human race.



Sorry, I couldn't resist.

No, you are completely wrong. The laws that OWS protest lead to corruption and the cheating and exploitation of the people. Every single particle of evidence and inquiry point toward this being the fact of the matter.

Now the police are supposed to enforce law in order to serve the people. When the law is completely counter intuitive to that primary purpose, common sense dictates that it is the responsibility and moral obligation of every true and discerning police officer as decent human beings to step down and refrain from enforcing inherently evil proliferating laws.

Basically you are on the wrong side.

As a person aspiring to be part of the police force and therefore a servant of the people you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself for aligning with the evil, fascist regime currently in place.

You do realize the only people who take you seriously are other useful idiots? Are you so deluded to think the majority would agree with you once they got to know you? You're just as much a minority in philosophy as John Sunlight...

And the constitution doesn't even cover federal police, much less a paramilitary organization that is meant to suppress all us second class citizens.

So these guys cleared Zucotti this morning.

NYPD in vests marked "Counter terrorism" says a lot about how the powers that be view the right to free speech/assembly.

http://www.avaaz.org/en/the_world_vs_wall_st/?vc