Yeah, I mentioned I thought they were violating Ukrainian before we got into this....whatever this conversation is. It wasn't clear to me if they were squatting on public land (like a forest or park or something) or land that wasn't being used for anything.


Is there anyone here (preferably a relative local) that can give some perspective on Transnistria and Moldova? I confess to total ignorance about their situation vis-a-vis Russia; I can't tell if the "watch these places next" undercurrent that's cropped up lately has any merit or if it's just bullshit. I mean, some minor alarm bells went off here when Russian officials expressed concerns about the treatment of Russians in Estonia but that would be a monumentally dumb idea for Putin to pull a Crimea on a NATO country, so I don't think it's really being seriously thought about here.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... ia-ukraine


I spent more time reading the comments below - not everyone takes all our media at face value, and are the debt statistics for some powers a factor in the stance they're taking?).

The whole story to me mostly is the west going. "Only we can ever intervene in other countries"

iamntbatman posts are always the best ones!

Russia did not invade Ukraine: there's an agreement saying Russia is allowed to keep 25 thousand troops in Crimea. Currently, there are 16k Russian soldiers there.


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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26415508

A good, relatively neutral article, and despite it being from the BBC I recommend reading it, but the point you picked out was already discussed and, well, as the article points out:

I'd love to get my hands on a pdf or something of the agreement though. I don't trust the media's cherrypicking.

The burden of the proof they left the base is on Ukraine.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/politico- ... html?hp=l4

That Ayotte is saying this is irrelevant, she's pretty much lockstep with Graham and McCain on security matters. Durbin is more significant, he's the third highest ranking Democrat in the country.



I think the Russian minefields laid down on the Crimea side of the border make this question moot.

That's like what you say. Is it outside their bases? What about evidences, proofs...

Transnistria asked to join Russia several times in past 10-15 years. Russia refused. There are Russian peacekeepers there. And what is most important now, Transnistria is bordering with Odessa region on the south of Ukraine. And Odessa has a plenty of pro-Russia people. I would say about 50% are strongly pro-Russian, may be not to extent of being a part of Russia, but at least be in close cultural and economic union.

An overall situation around Ukraine, as it looked here in Russia: we had no choice but to answer USA. After all these "revolutions" across Middle East, and now in Ukraine, we seemed to be the next target. After previous Ukrainian revolution in 2004, the country got a president managed by USA, and the country started to move away from Russia. A massive anti-Russian propaganda was conducted, with the worst form like pulling the "right" history in school books, that created a large amount of people who believe Ukrainians and Russians are not brother nations. So with another era of puppet government in Kiev (which came to power after latest events) Russia would likely lost Ukraine in all means, and probably get NATO "piece-keepers" right on its borders.

BTW, in the western media I've seen popular comparison of Ukraine with Mexico, to illustrate what is Ukraine for Russia. Actually, it would be much better to compare Ukraine with Canada. So imagine if Canada starts moving into Russian sphere of influence.

Thesis: The Bavarian government party CSU wants to propose Yulia Timoshenko for the Nobel Peace Price.
Antithesis: http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-calls-destroy-russia-917/

.

As untrustworthy as that woman is, I really don't believe this recording is fully what it seems. First, there's the absence of the original tape, why does Russia Times only play their compiled subtitled version? More importantly, Russian government officials have declined comment on this. I'd wager it's sone rogue oddball, a Russian equivalent of Alex Jones, trying to fan the flames and push the panic button.

Yeah, but

I dislike Ukraine as an independent country, I like it as a part of Russia that it was alwais before. Ukraine as a state have appeard in 1991 after collapse of the USSR and was one of its republic there that had been founded by Stalin personally in 1921.

Tymoshenco and her gang are ignoramus. Tymoshenco is a villain and she should be at her penitentiary now. Those who have released her are her criminal gang and they should be at the prison too. Now the USA and Europe should enclose her in the prison this time. The USA should demonstrate the whole world its generosity and true greatness by such step - to enclose Tymoshenco and her gang in the prison again and this will be good.

After WWII ended America pumped billions of dollars into Europe to help rebuild it, The Marshall plan came with some strings attached though, countries had to agree to certain finacial conditions. But were there other conditions which were not so widely known? The Marshall plan, which was about rebuilding and creating a more stable Europe was also about stopping Russian expanionalism. Maybe what is happening in the east today was inevitable and this time would eventually come as east meets west, and the cold war never ended?

Tymoshenco is a jailbird and a pig. That's a case of justice, of justice for all, but this pig beyond the justice and that's wrong.

Ukraine is a former region of Russia, never in History have been that state and that folk. Those problems are offshoots of the Bolshevik regime and Stalin's deeds in the time of USSR. Ukraine have been engendered by Communism and by the USSR.

Timoshenko was a strong politician. She used to speak toughly and passionately, but her actions and decisions were quite pragmatical. However in last couple of weeks she's made several statements that sounded not fully adequate.

Russians.

Just popping in to say that that's not the best reason to base an argument on. Things change. That's a fact. America used to belong to Britain, and before that to the Native Americans. Pointing to the past and saying "That's how it used to be" isn't going to lend credence to an argument.

What kind of statements?

Her plait has exposed her psycho abnormality. She's a fool and a pig. Now she's got a chance to deliver herself from that stupid plait so all normal folks have already mocked at her image. But she's a criminal anyhow. And her gang that have released her are criminals too.


I am a conservative.

There should be some objective and rational reasones for such changes but these were in the case of the USA but in the case of shitty Ukraine here aren't.

Why not?

Russia/Ukraine vs. Britain/America isn't really a sensible comparison. Either historically or in their current conditions. Look at the first moment of separation: USA left Britain by a popularly supported revolution. They wanted to be apart. For the others, Kievan Rus' was only broken into the regions that are now Russia, Ukraine and Belarus as part of divide-and-conquer by the Mongols. So the root of them being apart was forced by unwanted fireign intervention.

Today, recolonization of America by Britain is just impractical, as having a country sprawled across an ocean is unwieldy and in the long run will grow apart. Not due to incompatibility, just distance. Russia and Ukraine are side by side, so there would be no real cultural split to prevent them from - voluntarily if at all possible- reuniting.

No, Russia and Ukraine are more suitably compared to Germany and Austria. What divides them? Only outdated international treaties backed up by the statist understanding of nationality, that keeps related kinsfolk unnaturally pitted against each other.

I agree almost all. But German and Austria this is also wrong case or odd case. Austria was always and from the beginning an independent from Germany state and it formed an empire with Hugary then. Those countries have self-reliant and sufficient historical traditions that don't intersect between themselves. Ukrain and Russia are historicaly bunched too tight and so Ukraine's self-reliant hystory and historical tradition is too poor for independency.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26830336

APRIL FOOLS!

Good one, Putin!

The ethnic make up of America is much more diverse than Ukraine. Parts of America were ruled by the British Empire for under 200 years.
Britain could never make a strong claim to re-establishing control (even if it was able to) as America has always been multicultural from when the first Europeans began settling there in large numbers from the 17th century - so it would be simply ridiculous.
Many left to be free of British control, especially many Irish after the potato famine - and many later for not wanting to pay taxes to a country so far away and I can't blame them. Much (all?) of Europe was ruled for the interests of the rich and powerful only, America offered hope to many and a fresh start.

The situation is bound to escalate, Russian troops mass near the borders as Putin seeks to counter the west, NATO troops and planes are sent to countries who've requested their presence, who until relatively recently made up part of the USSR. Neither side is going to back down it seems,unfortunately. And what will China do?

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about the right wing element present in the initial protests in the Ukraine, and also Russia's stance on Syria which was at odds with the west.
I don't think the situation is as clear cut as some are making out. Also Im surprised John Sunlight isn't posting more in this thread after being one of the first to highlight that It wasn't just 'ordinary' citizens from the immediate area who were demonstrating.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26919928

So it seems Russia might invade East Ukraine now. It is very questionable if the East Ukranians even want that, since 2000 protestors doesn't really constitute a majority, and a majority of East Ukraine is of Ukranian ethnicity. We'll have to see what Russia does next, but there is a big chance of escalation now.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27018199
lots of indications the Russian military is involved, as well as some former Berkut (the special police units used in Kiev, although not in the above article).

In fact, if you watch any of the videos of them storming a building with military rifles, you can tell at least some of them have had special training. Supposedly some were seen with assault rifles only available to Russian forces, I haven't personally seen these pictures though.

It seems that Russia deserves the troll of the decade award for calling on the UN to do something against Ukraine, but they were probably scared Ukraine would do so later, so they just cried wolf while wearing a mask.

Strutta's posts were a breath of fresh air - bit of a firebrand but shame he stopped posting. Now all we're getting are posts from people who just parrot what they read in the media.

Ukrainian Army sent into Kramatorsk on an "anti-terrorism" campaign. They march up to the pro-Russian militiamen, and then... disassemble their guns and hand the firing mechanism over to the militias in a symbolic gesture of welcoming. This just after imposed, er, Acting President Turchynov fired the defence minister fir being too slow to respond- that last little bit was briefly reported in mainstream, but where's the rest? All the mass defections of Ukraine's military? Wound up in the Ignore Pile eh...

This ain't good:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27118875

^not good, but that matters much less in the flow of things. They've been threatening people before. Also very sad they killed a student. But those guys are terrorists and regularly take hostages, there is no point in stopping the operations against them.

What is more of an escalation is that Lavrov has said that if a single Russian citizen is killed, he will order the Russian army across the border, and there are a lot of Russian citizens involved there.

Putin has also admitted that it was the Russian army in Crimea a while ago.

As I can see a civil war in east Ukraine is quite near. This is very sad but they most radical people are rapidly become more and more violent.

And I am surprised with the incapacity of the Ukrainian army to recover the control of the eastern cities, I know that the Russian insurgents are armed by Russia, but come on, if you cant control them I dont know what you expect to do if the Russian army crosses the border.

Or you know, perhaps it isn't so easy to fight your own countrymen? Perhaps that is why some Ukrainian army units sent to fight them have deserted to the side of the east-Ukrainian seperatists? But sure, they're all Russian insurgents and Kiev is just too incompetent to put them down.

Another thing to consider is the Ukrainian military is probably trying not to hit them too hard to avoid provoking a Russian response.

I think that the ones who deserted are actually Russians, not a surprise at all.

And as they clearly said, they are not countrymen, they are Russians and they declare clearly that they dont want to be part of Ukraine.

But they problem is that those cities are part of Ukraine. It could be a discussion about Crimea,but not in this case. This situation is a nonsense consequence of the ambitions of Putin and the total incompetence of Kiev.

True, and because if they use alll the strength a lot of people would die and everything (terrible) could happen.

So you're saying nevermind who lives there, and what they want to part of, those territories belong to the Kiev regime, and their pro-Russian inhabitants should be deported to Russia (as you're claiming they aren't Ukrainians anyways) because seperation of a part of the country that may have a seperatist majority is just not an option? Is that what you're implying?


Right...

The pro-Russians are just a loud minority.

Unlike the majority uprising Euromaidan you mean?