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Zdan
Veteran

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2762
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:42 am 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
MrMcThrasher II wrote:
So go around beating up people you don't agree with. Got it. That'll make my job so much easier rather than acting like a civilized person.

I wonder how you extrapolated this from me saying that Trumpists are awful people (which they all are, every single one, by default).

If we're talking prope Nazis though (and these are two demographics that intersect quite often), yeah, sure, beat the shit out of them. I hope all Nazis die horrible, miserable, violent deaths. Every single one.

No apologies. Not anymore.


If may be semantics but I think one question is in order:

Who is a Trumpist in your eyes? Everyone who voted for Trump? Those who support him loudly and proudly? All people on the "right"? Libertarians (I heard that classification too)?

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~Guest 282118
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 8300
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:43 pm 
 

Understand "Trumpist" as people who loudly and proudly support the man, all the while ignoring basically everything related to him. People who literally substitute reality with their own version.

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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3987
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:55 pm 
 

I think this is a fairly easy one to define: a Trumpist is someone who affirmatively supports Trump in most of his endeavors, supinely and without apologies. S/he goes several steps beyond typical GOP rhetoric surrounding Trump, which usually consists of moderate criticisms of norm-breaking and steep criticism of trade policy only to end with "but at least we got Gorsuch" or "at least we don't have a 3rd Clinton term" or whatever. Rather, the Trumpist offers full-throated endorsements for some 99% of what Trump does or says.

In some ways they represent the same sort of partisan hackery you see in both sides (and here I'm especially reminded of how certain cultists continue to proclaim that The Most Qualified Presidential Candidate in History™ was also too dumb to understand classification laws that millions of other people obey every day). The difference, however, lies in that (a) the Trumpist's object of adoration has no firmly-held policy or moral preferences whatsoever and (b) governs by impulse. Thus, a Trumpist's unashamed sense of servitude might compel them to advocate as many as three separate self-contradictory policies within, say, a single 24-hour period, because that is what their idol does. An example might be extricating the US from TPP one week and talking about re-joining it the next, or berating people for disrespecting the troops while also trashing Gold Star families.

No other object of partisan cultism---no Clinton, no Bush, nobody---has ever placed his or her flock in such a schizophrenic situation. No movement has gone off on a limb this frequently only to watch their idol saw it off behind them. Yet they have no shame in doing so again and again.

That's the type of person people mean by a Trumpist.

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MrMcThrasher II
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 1321
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:14 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Oh fuck Daryl Davis. He's failed to "convert" white supremacists far more than he has succeeded

And you've done what so far to help combat racism?
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Murtal wrote:
In flames became MeloDICK Death Metal

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
Also hopefully they take it as a sign they're not meant to make more albums.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:02 am 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
Oh fuck Daryl Davis. He's failed to "convert" white supremacists far more than he has succeeded

And you've done what so far to help combat racism?

lmao

me: "Homeopathy doesn't work"
MrMcTrasher II (presumably sneering smugly): "And you've done what so far to help cure disease?"
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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MrMcThrasher II
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 1321
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:17 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
MrMcThrasher II wrote:
And you've done what so far to help combat racism?

lmao

me: "Homeopathy doesn't work"
MrMcTrasher II (presumably sneering smugly): "And you've done what so far to help cure disease?"

Nice false equivalency you created there.

He proved it CAN work. It isn't my fault you're too lazy to try and change the world around you. People of any kind CAN be reached if you had an ounce of energy in you try and serve your fellow people.
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Murtal wrote:
In flames became MeloDICK Death Metal

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
Also hopefully they take it as a sign they're not meant to make more albums.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 6032
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:03 am 
 

Uh didn't one of Davis's "converts" shoot at a bunch of black counterprotesters in Charlottesville? Sorry but in the time you could edjamacate 5 racist homeschooled evangelical rednecks (4 of which will reject you as Fake News anyway), you could be advocating for fixing the system that allows for evangelical home "schooling" in the first place and easily debunking IQ and race pseudoscience on a scale which could actually make a difference.

Sorry but no one should have to mollycoddle someone who believes you should be wiped off the face of the earth because of your facial structure or whatever. Asking a person who's already disadvantaged in certain ways to do so is just sick.
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nightbreaker33
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:20 am
Posts: 615
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:37 am 
 

That may be a bit off- topic but did you notice what trump did to Turkey recently? He won't send other F-18 jets and raised the price of dollar trading to turkish current and vice-versa. If Turkey releases the pastor do you think any of that will change?
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:47 pm 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
He proved it CAN work. It isn't my fault you're too lazy to try and change the world around you. People of any kind CAN be reached if you had an ounce of energy in you try and serve your fellow people.

"Lazy"? Holy shit dude, are you for real?

Should I also coddle sexists and misogynists who show contempt for my gender? Take my precious time educating them when 99% of the them won't listen?


Fuck. OFF
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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~Guest 226319
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 6570
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:19 pm 
 

The best way to educate people out of being racist (or etc) isn't by finding a friendly black guy to buddy up to them. Weirdly, it's to educate them. Specifically, send them to college and make them take the gen ed classes they think they'll hate and make them read the books that will force them to look at the world from perspectives other than their own for a grade. They'll be exposed to experiences and ideas they would normally intentionally ignore and disregard. They won't be transformed instantly or completely, but if they're even a little thoughtful, the ideas will churn in the back of their minds for a while and eventually they'll admit to themselves that the new ideas are good. The important thing for these "conversions" is that they believe they independently came to the new conclusions on their own, even though the truth is that they were coerced into it by the need for grades. Anecdotally I took a class about colonialism with a guy who at first said that colonialism was all good, but afterwards ended up having a more nuanced opinion after having to read Chinua Achebe's "Things fall apart" (which is an A+ novel even outside an educational context).

Butt... If you aren't a college professor or an activist (and thus persuading people about these kinds of things isn't your "job") and you are still interested in persuading people out of these kinds of views who aren't themselves going out to get an education, it's still not the best approach to send a member of the group that a person has convinced themselves isn't worth listening to to convince them. If you're trying to reach a racist white guy it's a much more effective strategy to send a non-racist white guy. It reduces how much they'll be automatically tuned out. It's not all that different from any other kind of propaganda or marketing campaign, if you want to reach a certain demographic, you send a messenger they'll be more receptive to.

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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 2115
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:01 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Oh fuck Daryl Davis. He's failed to "convert" white supremacists far more than he has succeeded and shown more contempt for BLM than white supremacists. What he's doing might barely work on a few individuals, but doesn't apply on a global scale. He's a tool, a useful idiot for the Klan..


Fuck YOU. This man has done more for equality than you ever will. Let's see you go to the heart of a hate-crime location and try to reason with them.
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Timeghoul wrote:
Petitioner wrote:
Shut the fuck up you pathetic shut ins.
I didn't know children book fans were so angry.


Last edited by TrooperEd on Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3987
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:04 pm 
 

I've learned through experience that being the "non-racist white guy" trying to educate bigots is a largely fruitless (and thankless, and potentially dangerous) endeavor for the vast majority of outright bigots, and I suspect it's for similar reasons to why the whole "let's just teach men not to rape" approach doesn't work for sexual assault either. If you do not have certain fundamental core ethics about the inherent evilness of bigotry, then you will be almost completely immune to reason and thus unreachable. I mean, if your goal is to counter institutional bigotry or "casual racism" then yes, a college education (and the life experiences attendant to it) will ultimately prevail. But you are not going to convince the vehemently bigoted to abandon their core values by being "the nice white guy" who tries talking to them. You won't even chip away at the block. Those sorts of people don't unlearn their ways absent dramatic and/or quasi-religious life experiences.

And if it's potentially dangerous for non-racist white people to do it (and in my experience, it is) then there is no way in hell we should be recommending the objects of bigotry to try that method on their current or aspiring oppressors.

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~Guest 226319
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 6570
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:14 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
But you are not going to convince the vehemently bigoted to abandon their core values by being "the nice white guy" who tries talking to them... Those sorts of people don't unlearn their ways absent dramatic and/or quasi-religious life experiences.

Your first sentence here is right but the second is wrong. If you're the guy who's decided they're going to try to get the message out to these people, you can't go in with the mindset that you're going to win converts like a religious missionary. You're just there to plant some seeds in their minds that may or may not germinate later. It's also wise to pick the most fertile ground, of course, younger people, people less dedicated to these beliefs, the less overtly hostile ones. If you help a few of those people move in a better direction (a great idea would be convincing them to get out of their provincial small town and get some higher education they can bring back), they'll be the ones interacting with the older, more dedicated, and more hostile ones on a regular basis in ways outsiders never will and it'll be their example that moves those people, if they are to be moved at all.

I probably won't ever say or think this again, but it's not all futile.

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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 2115
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:17 pm 
 

Maybe Daryl Davis's method isn't the ultimate solution to racial inequality in this country. But you know what? His methods are a lot closer to Ghandi/Martin Luther King/your favorite peaceful activist here than the radical left's "let's punch all nazis" strategy. The hilariously obvious problem with that isn't "nazis are people too," it's that you expect Nazis to play fair and not retaliate because you think some sort of inherent shame will keep them from punching back. Not only will they punch back, they will probably start stabbing, shooting, and in the case of Charlottesville, killing back.

You want to go to war with a bunch of half-wit bigots? You better be prepared to finish it shortly after you fire the first shot.
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Timeghoul wrote:
Petitioner wrote:
Shut the fuck up you pathetic shut ins.
I didn't know children book fans were so angry.

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~Guest 226319
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 6570
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:33 pm 
 

People keep bringing up nazi punching, but how many examples can you really think of? The most active movements of the "far left" right now are the Sandernistas who are running in elections and trying to shift the policies of the democratic party, and groups like BLM who stage civil rights movement style public protests. That one guy going out and buddying up to racist guys is certainly noble and brave, but he's not comparable to Ghandi or MLKJr precisely because he's one guy, and not building a movement like others are. Ghandi and MLKJr weren't just some saintly guys who went out on their own as shining examples, they were organizers of mass movements.

I guess you actually disapprove of Daryl because he's not violent towards nazis, though? Why criticize the far left for being violent and this guy for not being violent? Which is it? I'd say, whatever violence comes to violent nazis isn't something we should fret over too much, but for regular people, education is still the best tool.

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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 2115
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:41 pm 
 

This is all I have to say about Black Lives Matter:



Also, I wasn't criticizing Daryl for not being violent. Nor was I calling for violence against the Nazis. I have no clue how you thought I was contradicting myself. I was conceding with others that perhaps there is more of a chance for failure than success with his method, but I certainly applaud him for trying.
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Timeghoul wrote:
Petitioner wrote:
Shut the fuck up you pathetic shut ins.
I didn't know children book fans were so angry.

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~Guest 322837
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:20 pm
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:44 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
People keep bringing up nazi punching, but how many examples can you really think of? The most active movements of the "far left" right now are the Sandernistas who are running in elections and trying to shift the policies of the democratic party, and groups like BLM who stage civil rights movement style public protests. That one guy going out and buddying up to racist guys is certainly noble and brave, but he's not comparable to Ghandi or MLKJr precisely because he's one guy, and not building a movement like others are. Ghandi and MLKJr weren't just some saintly guys who went out on their own as shining examples, they were organizers of mass movements.

I guess you actually disapprove of Daryl because he's not violent towards nazis, though? Why criticize the far left for being violent and this guy for not being violent? Which is it? I'd say, whatever violence comes to violent nazis isn't something we should fret over too much, but for regular people, education is still the best tool.


I think that's a bit of an unfair way to represent viewpoints that disapprove of Daryl. What he's doing is lending his shoulder to a particularly hateful group, and some think that whatever might be achieved in doing this is doing more harm than good. Some may also say that his actions almost fetishize white supremacy and a hatred for Daryl's own race. There are plenty of sound reasons to disagree with Daryl, none of them being his non-violent stance, and that is a gross misrepresentation of his critics.

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MrMcThrasher II
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 1321
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:44 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
MrMcThrasher II wrote:
He proved it CAN work. It isn't my fault you're too lazy to try and change the world around you. People of any kind CAN be reached if you had an ounce of energy in you try and serve your fellow people.

"Lazy"? Holy shit dude, are you for real?

Should I also coddle sexists and misogynists who show contempt for my gender? Take my precious time educating them when 99% of the them won't listen?


Fuck. OFF

Ah yes, "coddle" is anything but utter hatred for anyone without the same worldview as you.

Yeah I'm calling you out on being lazy. In what manner are you actually an activist or serving your community? I want to know what methods you're using to stop that mindset from occurring, as last I checked telling people they're stupid and wrong doesn't actually work. Anyone with a mature mindset would know that though.
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Murtal wrote:
In flames became MeloDICK Death Metal

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
Also hopefully they take it as a sign they're not meant to make more albums.

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Ball Cupper
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:51 pm
Posts: 235
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:21 pm 
 

personally, I like to strike a comfy middle-ground between bigoted and not-bigoted. y'know, it's all just opinions and worldviews in the end. it's not all black or white. also if you don't detail to me how you're the perfect activist then I'll just dismiss the underlying point in what you've said.

you have to be a chef to know you're eating shit
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MrMcThrasher II
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 1321
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:46 pm 
 

Ball Cupper wrote:
personally, I like to strike a comfy middle-ground between bigoted and not-bigoted. y'know, it's all just opinions and worldviews in the end. it's not all black or white. also if you don't detail to me how you're the perfect activist then I'll just dismiss the underlying point in what you've said.

you have to be a chef to know you're eating shit

Due to my work hours being erratic, I've mostly stuck with doing stuff for the homeless in the bay area (one of my friend's churches does passing of food, so every other week I do a bread pickup from another church in Hayward usually and then I help with the passing on Tuesday with no exceptions and my work knows that). I also did help tutor my dad's wife's relatives in Mexico with their schoolwork but don't have time for that as much now. Then just basic volunteering for the school programs in the bay area (Oakland especially. I try to avoid Richmond for personal reasons) though I have a halt on that for this year, simply because of work. It's actually part of the reason I'm looking for new jobs.

So I HAVE done some stuff for the community but obviously haven't done as much as I could recently. Subject to change of course.
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Murtal wrote:
In flames became MeloDICK Death Metal

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
Also hopefully they take it as a sign they're not meant to make more albums.

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Ball Cupper
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:51 pm
Posts: 235
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:00 pm 
 

that's all good shit, genuinely, but how does that go against anything I've said?
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MrMcThrasher II
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 1321
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:45 pm 
 

Ball Cupper wrote:
that's all good shit, genuinely, but how does that go against anything I've said?

It doesn't. Mostly showing I've tried to at least serve my community in some manner to show a difference can be made, and that you actually have to put effort into it.

Calling people who voted for Trump or still supporting Trump scum of the Earth does nothing to support your cause like calling names in elementary school (which is ultimately what it IS). If you treat people like human beings, surprisingly they'll have dialogues with you. You simply can't expect one conversation to change one's viewpoint though. Life is NOT easy like that.
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Murtal wrote:
In flames became MeloDICK Death Metal

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
Also hopefully they take it as a sign they're not meant to make more albums.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 6032
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:02 pm 
 

FAKE NEWS. Nice try, deep state operative. You ain't gonna fool me with your antifa/BLM/Washington Post/FBI/NWO propaganda. Unless it's coming from the mouth of our God Emperor or the highly-vetted, extremely reliable "good guy NSA" communication hub known as 4chan (or its even more hidden and therefore more reliable sister website, 8chan), everything you're saying is a lie and that's a fact. #wwg1wga #maga #fuckthejews
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theposega
Mezla

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:42 pm
Posts: 5263
Location: Neo-Allegheny City
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:11 pm 
 

jesus christ alfuckingmighty did somebody actually post a vladtv video in here, let alone one featuring lord jamar, and say that it contains logic worth following? vladtv is hip hop's metalsucks. lord jamar is basically dave mustaine. put them together and you get scorched, bubbling diarrhea. holy fucking fuck
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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3987
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:22 pm 
 

MrMcThrasher II, these are the sort of people you're talking about having a conversation with:

Trumpist in April wrote:
North Korea is impermeable to diplomacy and requires a "bloody-nose" missile strike

same Trumpist in May wrote:
well of course we should talk to Kim, diplomacy is always worth it

same Trumpist in June wrote:
Leader say Kim good. Must believe leader. I am proud of The Wave.


No, you don't need to call them scum of the earth to their faces or confront them in a violent way. But there is nothing to reason with here, nowhere to even begin to have a conversation. Whatever dialogue they have with you about political issues will be worthless as soon as their idol excretes his next ex cathedra de Twitter and thereby changes whatever they believe in.

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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 6032
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:31 pm 
 

theposega wrote:
jesus christ alfuckingmighty did somebody actually post a vladtv video in here, let alone one featuring lord jamar, and say that it contains logic worth following? vladtv is hip hop's metalsucks. lord jamar is basically dave mustaine. put them together and you get scorched, bubbling diarrhea. holy fucking fuck

but he tells the truth about how george soros and homos are responsible for black lives matter, and he's black so his truth will appeal to people who don't think africans are the inferior race, despite the fact they of course are (proved by decades of exhaustive research from the best phrenologists our 6000 year old earth has to offer)
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MrMcThrasher II
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 1321
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:46 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
MrMcThrasher II, these are the sort of people you're talking about having a conversation with:

Trumpist in April wrote:
North Korea is impermeable to diplomacy and requires a "bloody-nose" missile strike

same Trumpist in May wrote:
well of course we should talk to Kim, diplomacy is always worth it

same Trumpist in June wrote:
Leader say Kim good. Must believe leader. I am proud of The Wave.


No, you don't need to call them scum of the earth to their faces or confront them in a violent way. But there is nothing to reason with here, nowhere to even begin to have a conversation. Whatever dialogue they have with you about political issues will be worthless as soon as their idol excretes his next ex cathedra de Twitter and thereby changes whatever they believe in.

It's better to keep trying than to give up immediately.

There are MILLIONS of people like this. The more you push them into not changing, the more divided politics is going to be, and we will only continue to have an unhealthy political climate.

Change starts with one.
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Murtal wrote:
In flames became MeloDICK Death Metal

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
Also hopefully they take it as a sign they're not meant to make more albums.

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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 3987
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:55 pm 
 

Well, personally, I didn't give up immediately, but I did give up a good while ago once the cumulative evidence showed the effort would be agonizing in its futility.



Meanwhile on the campaign trail: some of Trump's allies have gone from "we can probably still keep the House" to "maybe impeachment proceedings won't be so bad." In other words, they don't like the GOP's chances in November.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/ ... rms-778968

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lost_wanderer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 4:59 pm
Posts: 312
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:36 am 
 

Sometimes, acts of kindness can do more to change a person's views than trying to convince them via rational argumentation.
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GTog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
Posts: 1196
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:18 am 
 

Well, unreasonable people are immune to reason, sort of by definition. For example, this recent exchange:

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
Should I also coddle sexists and misogynists who show contempt for my gender? Take my precious time educating them when 99% of the them won't listen?


Fuck. OFF

Ah yes, "coddle" is anything but utter hatred for anyone without the same worldview as you.


Sexists and misogynists aren't people with different "worldviews", as if blind hatred of others is just some alternate but equally valid perspective on life. They are people who are wrong about a really basic fucking aspect of humanity that most of us don't even have to be taught, it's so simple. That same goes for racists, homophobes, anti-semites, anti-catholics, and yes Trumpists. How do you even begin trying to be rational with someone that doesn't even know what rational fucking is?

You're trying to teach calculus to someone who thinks "none", "one", and "some" are perfectly fine concepts and numbers are too complicated and you're elite and trying to make me look stupid and fuck you. It's hopeless. The best you can hope for is to run across someone who is not an entrenched -ist of any kind, but is merely mistaken about some things. Mistakes can be corrected.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:21 am 
 

Quote:
Sexists and misogynists aren't people with different "worldviews"

Thank you. Let's not normalize this shit as a "world view".

People are free to try and coddle racists with kind words and patient education and whatnot in their spare time, if they so choose. But nobody, especially not recipients of said bigotry, should be expected to do that. It's insane to even say otherwise.

TrooperEd wrote:
Maybe Daryl Davis's method isn't the ultimate solution to racial inequality in this country. But you know what? His methods are a lot closer to Ghandi/Martin Luther King/your favorite peaceful activist here than the radical left's "let's punch all nazis" strategy. The hilariously obvious problem with that isn't "nazis are people too," it's that you expect Nazis to play fair and not retaliate because you think some sort of inherent shame will keep them from punching back. Not only will they punch back, they will probably start stabbing, shooting, and in the case of Charlottesville, killing back.

You want to go to war with a bunch of half-wit bigots? You better be prepared to finish it shortly after you fire the first shot.

Oh, you wanna bring up MLK as a non-radical peaceful hippie huh?

Spoiler: show
Image


Fun fact: MLK was considered a "radical extremist" in his time, and the criticism he received was pretty much identical to what BLM etc. are the recipient of today.

Also, massive fuck you to your framing of the Charlottesville murder as "killing back". It was murder, not "killing back". Get the fuck out of here.

Edit:

Ball Cupper wrote:
personally, I like to strike a comfy middle-ground between bigoted and not-bigoted. y'know, it's all just opinions and worldviews in the end. it's not all black or white. also if you don't detail to me how you're the perfect activist then I'll just dismiss the underlying point in what you've said.

you have to be a chef to know you're eating shit

lol, for real.

wraithlike wrote:
I think that's a bit of an unfair way to represent viewpoints that disapprove of Daryl. What he's doing is lending his shoulder to a particularly hateful group, and some think that whatever might be achieved in doing this is doing more harm than good. Some may also say that his actions almost fetishize white supremacy and a hatred for Daryl's own race. There are plenty of sound reasons to disagree with Daryl, none of them being his non-violent stance, and that is a gross misrepresentation of his critics.

You are 100% correct.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:38 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
Meanwhile on the campaign trail: some of Trump's allies have gone from "we can probably still keep the House" to "maybe impeachment proceedings won't be so bad." In other words, they don't like the GOP's chances in November.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/ ... rms-778968

“If [dems] take the House, [Trump] wins big,” Barry Bennett, a former senior adviser to the Trump campaign, told POLITICO.
Uhhh... so it would follow that if Repubs maintained both houses... Trump would lose? Talk about counting your chickens before they turn sour...
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Resident_Hazard
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:13 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
I've learned through experience that being the "non-racist white guy" trying to educate bigots is a largely fruitless (and thankless, and potentially dangerous) endeavor for the vast majority of outright bigots, and I suspect it's for similar reasons to why the whole "let's just teach men not to rape" approach doesn't work for sexual assault either. If you do not have certain fundamental core ethics about the inherent evilness of bigotry, then you will be almost completely immune to reason and thus unreachable. I mean, if your goal is to counter institutional bigotry or "casual racism" then yes, a college education (and the life experiences attendant to it) will ultimately prevail. But you are not going to convince the vehemently bigoted to abandon their core values by being "the nice white guy" who tries talking to them. You won't even chip away at the block. Those sorts of people don't unlearn their ways absent dramatic and/or quasi-religious life experiences.

And if it's potentially dangerous for non-racist white people to do it (and in my experience, it is) then there is no way in hell we should be recommending the objects of bigotry to try that method on their current or aspiring oppressors.


Educating entrenched people is always going to be a difficult task in any sense, and no one method will work for everyone. The thing is, people get this way by being isolated and surrounding themselves (or being surrounded by) like-minded yes-men types. People whose lives are more defined by fear, cowardice, and feelings of worthlessness than any semblance of logic, evidence, or reason.

The documentary Meeting the Enemy (can be found on Netflix) features a woman of Middle Eastern descent, who was raised in Scandinavia, and who immigrated to the US. The enemy she's meeting are American white supremacists and while not a direct focus of the film, one thing that oozes through it is just how much these people are fearful losers who cling to their tiny groups and small worldviews. Meeting even one person outside of that circle routinely seems to have wide-spread changes in how they think about things, how they analyze their own views and policies, and how they look at other people. When asked by a "colored person" if they want her "shoved into ovens", they become noticeably uncomfortable.

These people are completely outside the norm to the extent that they literally do not know anything about the world outside of their little corner of it. Did any of these guys stop being white supremacists? Time will tell, although clearly beliefs were shaken when they had to realize that this "Middle Eastern woman" was not remotely all of the horrible things they'd been indoctrinated to believe.

Getting through those walls and gates to the actual people hiding behind them reveals that they deliberately try to be resistant to education in any form. The point I'm at least trying to outline is that trying to educate the entrenched--be it rape apologists MRA assholes, racists, homophobes, etc.--out of their horribly wrong beliefs is nearly impossible. They are not generally the primary target.

The primary target is your audience. Those who see how shitty those other people are. They have become defined by those beliefs, and once indoctrinated, will fight to keep them against reality. The point is showing how wrong they are to literally anyone else. While the bigots in the documentary were visibly uncomfortable telling a brown-skinned woman their beliefs for genociding brown-skinned people, a bigger influence will be her audience that see how broken these men are. That they are so closed off from the world that it takes meeting literally only one of the people they hate to suddenly have their views laid bare.

"Well no, I wouldn't want you deported or stuffed in the ovens. I know you and you're my friend..." This spoke volumes about these people. They literally do not know anyone outside their little flock of copycat brains.

They don't travel. They don't talk to people. They don't meet people. They know nothing of the world outside their doors, and they are comfortable that way, because everything outside scares them to their core. There's no magic formula to getting them to change their broken minds, but it is not without value to try. Because there will be an audience out there that sees how broken they are. This isn't about doing it in a way they can use, like giving them a platform. Like when reporters ventured into the wake of Charlottesville violence and decided to get "both sides of the story," where white supremacists used it as a way of trying to claim it was a world view. Tact still matters.

Ideally, you want to get the education out there to people in danger of being indoctrinated before they are caught in the snare.
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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:37 pm 
 

GTog wrote:
Well, unreasonable people are immune to reason, sort of by definition. For example, this recent exchange:

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
Ah yes, "coddle" is anything but utter hatred for anyone without the same worldview as you.


Sexists and misogynists aren't people with different "worldviews", as if blind hatred of others is just some alternate but equally valid perspective on life. They are people who are wrong about a really basic fucking aspect of humanity that most of us don't even have to be taught, it's so simple. That same goes for racists, homophobes, anti-semites, anti-catholics, and yes Trumpists. How do you even begin trying to be rational with someone that doesn't even know what rational fucking is?

You're trying to teach calculus to someone who thinks "none", "one", and "some" are perfectly fine concepts and numbers are too complicated and you're elite and trying to make me look stupid and fuck you. It's hopeless. The best you can hope for is to run across someone who is not an entrenched -ist of any kind, but is merely mistaken about some things. Mistakes can be corrected.

The thing is that it IS a different world view. It's an incorrect one in our eyes, obviously, but if you're raised somewhere where it's a norm, that is what you think is normal.

That's why slavery was so accepted in the south along with the dehumanization of said slaves. You teach your children at a young age how to "properly" treat your "property" and then they teach their children the same thing. It becomes your way of life over the course of several years.

Some eventually learned, and some had their slaves forcibly removed of course. Several decades later we are more enlightened as a whole, but not everyone is going be as lucky as us. There are places where children think 1 meal a day, if that, is a norm for crying out loud.

However, the refusal to accept those you disagree with as human beings like Morrigan and Xlxlx do is just as dangerous as not accepting someone simply because of their skin color or economic status. You never got an aggressive dog to calm down just by beating it further.
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Last edited by Morrigan on Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BastardHead
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:44 pm 
 

The underlying point here that I think a lot of people seem to have totally glossed over in order to hit other talking points is pretty obvious. The onus is not on the oppressed minority to change the minds of the oppressive majority through the virtue of kindness. It's really kind of absurd if you think about it even medium hard. You get a handful of stories of converts through such things but they are so few and far between that it's crazy to think that that's the most effective method. It's popular with resentful white people because it's the easiest. It's such a passive method, they don't have to do anything. With this ideal, they get to just sit around and go about their lives being hateful jackasses until somebody else is nice to them. So despite all the good foo's like Mr. McT do for the homeless and whatnot, they aren't doing a damn thing about racism because in their eyes, they don't have to. It's up to them damn dirty darkies to prove that their preconceived notions are incorrect and harmful, their hate is justified until somebody else is proves it otherwise, which is, oddly enough, incredibly fucking lazy.

And kind of a side tangent here, but have you ever followed this thought process to its logical conclusion? Doesn't this sort of imply that minorities deserve to be hated until they act nice to you for no reason? That's an oddly "guilty until proven innocent" mindset for a group of people who tend to view the law as an unbreakable holy doctrine. Minorities don't owe white dudes like me a god damned thing. Have you ever tried being nice to them? Boy that's a wacky thought!

Ask yourselves this, would you become feminist if only Morri was nicer to you?
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~Guest 282118
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:57 pm 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
However, the refusal to accept those you disagree with as human beings like Morrigan and Xlxlx do is just as dangerous as not accepting someone simply because of their skin color or economic status. You never got an aggressive dog to calm down just by beating it further.

I disagree with people on a lot of things.

I disagree that Obscura is a good album at all.

I disagree that pinapple on pizza isn't fucking awesome.

I disagree that football isn't the most boring fucking thing on the planet.

However, I can have perfectly civilized interactions and even friendships with the people I have said disagreements with, because they're just that; disagreements.

Telling me that rape victims deserve it isn't a disagreement. Telling me that black people are subhuman vermin isn't a disagreement. Telling me that the Holocaust didn't happen isn't a disagreement. And it's always the same people that spout these bullshit talking points; spiderwebs of vile, rageful, willful ignorance.

There is a difference between a merely aggressive dog and a rabid one; you cannot fix the latter with kindness and therapy. In fact, you cannot fix it, period. So you take more drastic measures, before it hurts anyone.

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Sweetie
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:30 pm 
 

I always read the word "Trumpist" as "trumpet" for a second, and it makes me giggle.
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lost_wanderer
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:37 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
I disagree with people on a lot of things.

I disagree that Obscura is a good album at all.

I disagree that pinapple on pizza isn't fucking awesome.

I disagree that football isn't the most boring fucking thing on the planet.

However, I can have perfectly civilized interactions and even friendships with the people I have said disagreements with, because they're just that; disagreements.

Telling me that rape victims deserve it isn't a disagreement. Telling me that black people are subhuman vermin isn't a disagreement. Telling me that the Holocaust didn't happen isn't a disagreement. And it's always the same people that spout these bullshit talking points; spiderwebs of vile, rageful, willful ignorance.

There is a difference between a merely aggressive dog and a rabid one; you cannot fix the latter with kindness and therapy. In fact, you cannot fix it, period. So you take more drastic measures, before it hurts anyone.


I disagree that a racist or a bigot cannot change or cannot be fix as you say it. You cannot change everybody but some can change. What would be your drastic measures? To put them all in jail, execute them?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:40 pm 
 

As others have previously said, some bigots are so deeply entrenched in their view that no change can come from external forces. For these people, who promote and incite violence by their very existence, I'd say yes, their otracism, criminalization and, given the necessity, utter destruction would be ideal. Don't really care how I look for saying this. The death of a Nazi is no tragedy.

I'm honestly amazed and horrified that we've reached a point as a society where we think that Nazis deserve any kind of pity or understanding.

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Derigin
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:40 pm 
 

On a literal level, and just out of curiosity xlxlx, would you have taken that view for the German people in the 1930s and 1940s for their support of the Nazi regime... That there isn't some level of change and redemption? I worry that when we paint people with broad strokes, we only risk the continuance of the ideologies and systems that perpetuate the hatred we wish to destroy. That isn't an argument is support of the "minorities must reach out and change majorities" discussion alluded to here earlier. It's a nuanced argument that sees the reality of the world for what it is... People can change and we all are responsible for making the change we want to see. Failure to do so let's the changes we don't wish to see fester as people we disagree with succeed at spreading their message. It's why in democratic politics for example the best tool for outreach and lasting change has always been canvassing and having conversations, not destruction or violence or avoidance.
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