Well, there definitely are a handful of "reality-flippy" episodes, but yeah, keep watching. It's a great show for the most part.

I have to say though that I was harshly let down by season 4. I'm kind of surprised most other fans of the show seem perfectly fine with it (at least those who I've talked to). Even the good episodes like Hang the DJ and USS Calister blatantly rehashed ideas they'd done in previous seasons, and then episodes like Crocodile and the finale were straight-up really bad. There was nothing particularly wrong with Metalhead other than it's just not at all what I want out of Black Mirror. I'd say Arkangel was probably the best of the season even though it's just a pretty standard Black Mirror episode, at least it had an original premise.

I dunno, I'm a fan and all but after finishing the season I just thought the whole thing was an admission that they've run out of ideas and are satisfied to just carry on repeating stuff they've done before. Doesn't exactly get me stoked for the future of the show.

Season 4 was the weakest season so far, yeah. It did have some good stuff but they are starting to repeat themselves - I hope they don't do that again next time. There are so many other new ideas they could do. It's a shame as Season 3 was my favorite one yet.

Started watching Mindhunter last night, I think I left off at the beginning of the...fourth episode? Anyways, I'm really liking it so far. Scratches my itch for true crime/serial killer TV that I get every so often.

I didn't get that impression, it has been pretty easy to follow so far. The visuals are great, but the story is what has me hooked, I just binged the first 5 last night. There are a lot of parts that visually remind me of Blade Running, but the music and the atmosphere sets it apart. I'm happy with it, and am looking forward to seeing where it goes.

I recently binged the first half of Star Trek: Discovery, and I think I'm going to leave it there. Please nobody say "Oh, but it gets really good after that!", because after 6 episodes if it hasn't gotten good yet, you've lost me.

They need a new proper Startrek that takes place after the timeframe of tng/ds9/voyager I mean these prequels being spat out just do nothing for me. At all. Startrek is going through a needlessly long fascination with the early years, and even rehashes of the early years but enough is enough. I think it is time for a new original series

DIS is better than the new movies by far, and it *does* get better but I agree I'd rather not see more prequel shit.

Discovery's first season was overall fine and particularly good for the first season of a Star Trek show; however, by the end of it you really did get the feeling they were writing by the seat of their pants. I still can't believe what they did with Lorca; up until the nanosecond they unveiled the "twist," I honestly thought he may have been my favorite captain. On, like all of Trek. Ever. Even better than Picard. But then they completely fucked all of it up just to be shocking.

I thought Star Trek was above this. I blame Akiva Goldsman.

I haven't bothered with Discovery yet, but to be fair, most Star Trek series (aside from the original) have sluggish starter seasons. Sometimes I'm amazed TNG made it past it's dreadful first season and cringey second season. Most of them eventually find their groove and get to be pretty damn good, except for Voyager, which mostly lingered it's way through 7 seasons, interspersed with some more interesting Borg arcs. As a reminder, the first season of TNG featured the "African black people planet" where they "abducted the blond white woman" from the Enterprise crew. How anyone thought that was a good idea is beyond me.




Totally agree. While Enterprise eventually had redeeming qualities in the 3rd and 4th seasons, the "olden days" series need to stop. I would frankly like to see a post-TNG/VOY/DS9 series, a Generation 3 if you will. That moves up to, say, the Enterprise M. Where do they go? The Alpha and Beta quadrants were largely left with the Federation as the lone remaining super power, with maybe Romulans in 2nd (going by the end of DS9).

They could do another DS9-styled "war series" where the Dominion and Borg end up dragging everyone else into a full-galactic quagmire, or they could simply return to the original concept, but push out further, having the Enterprise M (and a few other select "super deep space" ships) making the first steps into the Andromeda galaxy. Where they would, of course, meet all sorts of new forehead aliens. I would greatly prefer a new exploration series.

I think the reason they keep doing prequels/reboots/whatevers is because a sequel series that references/relies on the earlier series would either be seen as too niche (hardcore trekkies only) or not really resemble what the average person thinks of when they hear "Star Trek", i.e. TOS and TNG tropes. Sci-fi series are expensive to make in general and networks are going to hedge their bets however they can.

The real reason is because Roddenbery, and everyone else who thought of Star Trek as "more than a TV show" is gone. To everyone involved in making the big decisions regarding the franchise now, "Star Trek" = Kirk, Spock, phasers, transporters, the Enterprise, Klingons, The Borg, etc. They see Star Trek as a collection of culturally recognized imagery that they can use to generate profit by sticking them in whatever cookie cutter media template is popular at the time (blockbuster movie, serialized action soap opera, etc). They are not going to make anything that doesn't have a regular stream of nostalgia objects because to them that is the money maker.

They don't give a shit about what happens after Nemesis because they don't care about any of the concepts or ideals around which the grand narrative of the franchise was built. They don't care how Federation principles would stand the test of whatever the next science fiction development would be. That's the bottom line why there will never be a true sequel.

John, your words truly are heartbreaking but that is the solid truth of it I think.

Well duh.

Very good point, John_Sunlight, Star Trek had never been about recognizable brand appeal and churning out crappy tie-in merchandising ever before!

If anything I'd say Discovery is among the least sellout Trek has been since the TOS days. No longer desperately trying to sling toys and shitty video game after shitty video game, and watering down the show as much as possible to appeal to the conservative American "family" market. Not that the "edgy/dark/matchurrrr" market is much of a step-up (in fact it could be argued faux-dark is the new family friendly) but at least they aren't churning out Saru action figures with extendable neck tendrils and releasing a new FMV video game every other month.

This is way out in left field, but I had a questions about the show Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In. There was an actress/comedian on there, I believe here name was Lisa Farringer. She had Strawberry Blonde hair on the show. Its a crazy long shot, but I would like to know if anyone knows what became of her? There is almost no information on her on the net. Her IMDB page ends at 1978.

I still haven't been able to bring myself to watch it, but all the advertising reeked of it being one of the most sell-out Trek franchises. Drastically removed from familiar Trek tropes and ideals, heavily sold on the flash-n-pizzazz of the garbage Abrams movies, clearly made not to sell to Trek fans or science fiction fans. On top of which, CBS locked it behind a paywall for their stupid streaming service. The dark-n-gritty, arc-centric storytelling, with horribly flawed characters is simply what's popular in television these days.

I also never, even as a kid, saw Star Trek as a show that was out there "slinging toys." They were a very far cry from all our other toy-centric franchises like Star Wars, G.I. Joe, Transformers, Masters of the Universe, TMNT, Lego, etc. There are Star Trek toys, sure, but the marketing and draw for them never remotely matched anything else you could safely call "toy slinging". Indeed, your description falls more in line with Star Wars than Star Trek.

Trek regularly delved into progressive values, not necessarily conservative. It preached tolerance and understanding over answering everything with violence. Yeah, TNG had a lot of family-heavy stuff, particularly in the first two seasons, but the show was, like TOS, generally a hard sell in the beginning.

Trek has also done dark and gritty before, as seen in DS9 and Enterprise.

Granted, I might think differently when I finally decide to bother watching it, but at no point did I ever see this series as not selling out. The marketing blitz, money poured into it, being used to sell CBS subscriptions, and lowest-common-denominator target audience smacked of the most selling out the franchise ever did.

I'm going to try to finish my MST3K collection this year. I hope the recently announced season 12 fixes some of the issues I had with season 11. Like way too many jokes, to the point that it felt like they were reading off a script instead of "watching the movie" with us, the audience. Also, Tom should have a lower voice so he actually sounds different from Crow.

The DVD sets of the older episodes get released sporadically due to constant struggles with rights issues over some movies. Some of these people need to just be cool with this shit already, and let Shout Factory have the rights. I realize I'm either going to have to pay absurd prices, or just look for a torrent to get the one released Godzilla episode. Supposedly, up to a dozen episodes are unlikely to ever get the DVD treatment, due to the aforementioned rights issues, so hopefully Shout Factory can just re-release the old, remaining Rhino sets.

Watching Altered Carbon at the moment. I had read that it was disappointing story-wise but I am finding it very interesting and it's one of the best sci-fi series of the season.

I finished it a while ago. It's very cool and entertaining. The early episodes are the best ones and have the most intrigue - it gets kinda wacky later and adds in some story elements I found a bit off-putting, but the quality of the writing and acting was still enjoyable enough for me not to dislike it. Not a perfect show by any means but it was great visually and the characters were super memorable. It's more of a comic book/pulp thing than anything really intellectual though, despite the airs put on in the early eps.

Agreed on all points, Rez_Haz. Of course there were Star Trek lunchboxes back in the day, but that was a byproduct of the growing fandom over time, not the reason the show existed in the first place. The show wasn't initially conceived and structured as part of a marketing campaign. Discovery was. Discovery exists in order to sell CBS streaming site subscriptions. What are their other big draws? CSI Miami? NCIS New Orleans? Sure they've got the other Star Trek shows, but those are also on Netflix. Discovery itself is on Netflix except in the US and Canada, AND their streaming service has commercials, so they are ripping off North Americans twice. It's also clear that the Star Trek franchise is being used to push what would otherwise just be another forgettable nu-BG clone. So, that makes the show a sellout at least four times over. And this is *more* authentic than TOS and TNG?

You really don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, do you? I say this as someone who was disappointed by Discovery. Calling Discovery a "nu-BG clone" (I assume you meant nu-BSG clone) isn't even a contemporary false analogy. You could at least say, "Stranger Things in space," which is also wrong but at least it's up to date and makes some sense (remember that nu-BSG fizzled out in ratings at the end and its spin-off series tanked; no executive would want to ripoff that show anymore).

You're also forgetting that TOS was designed to hock color TVs and Voyager was created with the express purpose of launching UPN. Also, don't forget that it's been reasonably argued that DS9 was created as a direct ripoff of Babylon 5. But hey, why let facts get in the way of pre-established conclusions?

Even if I conceded everything you just said, the thrust of your post is that Discovery is also a sellout shillshow copying a formula that has nothing to do with True Trek and thus my original point was right. Why even frame your post as an argument against what I said when it is admitting agreement with all of my conclusions?

Anyway, your TOS color tv argument is flawed. Here some of the the reasons: Even if you didn't have a color tv you could still watch it, whereas if you live in the US, you can't watch Discovery without paying extra for the CBS subscription that nobody actually wants. Back in the day, a color TV had advantages even if you didn't want to watch Star Trek. The show itself wasn't developed by the network with such a specific marketing goal in mind, it was developed by Roddenberry who shopped the script around to several networks and one of the requirements of NBC was that they include bright colors in the design.

As for DS9 and Voyager having ulterior motives for being made? I'm not surprised. Did you not notice that my examples were TOS and TNG?

This kind of works against your original point. You said Discovery was the least sell-out show, but let's say all your points are right for the sake of argument, and you have successfully pointed out ways Trek was used as a "sell-out" show in the past. These points, when weighed against Discovery still make Discovery vastly the most "sell out" show of the franchise. Again, locked behind a shitty paywall. Huge budget, huge marketing blitz, products, products, everywhere.

The original Trek might have had an additional push to be in color to help sell color TVs. But it was 1967-69. A lot more shows were in color then. Longevity for the show simply would have made sense to be in color, and the show had a considerable budget, so they probably wanted to get the most bang for their buck. DS9 did start off as a slapdash affront to Babylon 5--but that doesn't necessarily mean it was for selling out, as much as capitalizing on the popularity of TNG and flying on it's coattails. Yep, Voyager was to help sell UPN, which is just a smart way to open a new network. Indeed, it makes sense that CBS would do this with Discovery or a different new series (rumors state that a 4th Twilight Zone iteration will also be given this shit treatment), but all of this only adds to Discovery being the most shamelessly sell-out Trek franchise, not the least.

Indeed, this is part of why I'd personally rather some franchises just fucking die for a while. Nothing gets better like this. TNG is a classic and a pinnacle in the franchise, in large part, because of the huge span between TOS and it, and spurned by the TOS revival in theaters. Having all this crap clustered together in a never-ending stream of sequelitis only serves to gradually make things worse, with occasional peaks among the constant drags.

It's why Star Wars will just move into banal languishing instead of ever again delivering something with the impact of Empire Strikes Back. It's why Jurassic Park will never again be as good as the first movie. It's why the Marvel movies have settled into formulaic predictability. In order to make these franchises last forever, they cost more and fewer risks can be taken.

Literally, the only franchise I've seen have a revival of sorts recently where it was actually a huge step forward in quality and style was Mad Max--and again, they had a 25 or so year gap there. It wasn't constantly whittled down year after year.

People need to let go of their fucking desperate nostalgia once in a while and just allow the things they love to be dead for a while. That's the only chance they have of ever coming back with sufficient quality.

Discovery really isn't that bad. It's also not that good IMO, I mean it just doesn't have the human depth or the sociopolitical depth of TNG/DS9, and the finale was god-awful, but it had some pretty solid episodes and I'll keep watching with the hope that it gets better. I'm sort of skeptical when people say "well TNG's first season was bad too," because I don't know if the scaffolding in DIS exists for the show to be "real Trek," it seems a bit glossier and more action-adventurey and stuff, but for what it is it's also really not that bad. Certainly not as bad as the Abrams movies, closer to the Trek spirit than that, even though it's still pretty different and not as good.

I dunno why time would necessarily make a difference as much as who's doing it and how they're doing it btw.

Honestly I couldn't give a fuck what Star Trek series is the "most sellout", because marketing decisions and all that crap won't really make a difference 10+ years down the line. Plenty of shows and movies have been excellent despite financial decisions playing a large part in their being made. The only thing that matters, and the only thing people will remember and care about once Discovery is as old as the other series are now, is whether or not it's good. And the answer to that is "eh, sorta."

The finale was pretty shit, but otherwise I mostly enjoyed this season. People keep saying that if you want real Trek, you should watch The Orville, which I suppose is accurate, but I can't say I have that much of a yearning for weapons-grade episodic TNG rehash nostalgia with Seth MacFarlane in it.



I'm still hoping for a post-Dominion War series...

I loved the darker aspect of DS9 but noticed a lot of backlash for that series. I think the fact that the good guys would often muck things up, or that the bad guys would win way more often than the other series, showed some realistic facets of reality in war time. I think that bugged a lot of people who held true to the more campy beginnings of the show and why their was no continuation after that series ended. I am hoping something new and set post DS9 will happen but this obsession with nostalgia needs to go away first.

Is your whole argument grounded on a No True Scotsman? If you refuse to acknowledge DS9, VOY and ENT as being "true trek" either, why are you even bothering to comment on Discovery?


Are you kidding? A few mugs and t-shirts--many of which aren't even related to DISC--are even worth acknowledging? Do you have any idea how much Star Trek merchandise is out there?

It did have a big budget, like all of Star Trek since the very beginning and it did have a big marketing push, like.... all of Star Trek since the very beginning! Yet I haven't yet seen the coloring books, happy meals, tsunami of cash-grab Activision video games and other "Family Friendly" merchandising for Discovery. And why? Because its primary target is: adults who like premium TV shows and adults who like Star Trek; that's about it.

Previously, Star Trek was specifically designed for age 5+, with heavy emphasis around the 5-13 demo. I'd say that intentionally shrinking your target demographic is the polar opposite of selling out, wouldn't you? And you could at least watch the show before having an opinion about it, even if the last episode is a bit of a drag.

Are you kidding? A few mugs and t-shirts--many of which aren't even related to DISC--are even worth acknowledging? Do you have any idea how much Star Trek merchandise is out there?

It did have a big budget, like all of Star Trek since the very beginning and it did have a big marketing push, like.... all of Star Trek since the very beginning! Yet I haven't yet seen the coloring books, happy meals, tsunami of cash-grab Activision video games and other "Family Friendly" merchandising for Discovery. And why? Because its primary target is: adults who like premium TV shows and adults who like Star Trek; that's about it.

Previously, Star Trek was specifically designed for age 5+, with heavy emphasis around the 5-13 demo. I'd say that intentionally shrinking your target demographic is the polar opposite of selling out, wouldn't you? And you could at least watch the show before having an opinion about it, even if the last episode is a bit of a drag.[/quote]

Saying "do you realize how much Trek merchandise is out there" for a franchise that's, what, 50 years old now, prior to Discovery does not make Discovery less sell-out. Acting like it's the first "less family friendly" Trek doesn't work, either, as DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise all took less family friendly routes. DS9, it should be noted, evolved into a dark war-centric series, as did Enterprise. DS9 went from "lessons for the kiddies" that TNG had to "watch how kids' lives worsen here."

Making the new one gritty, in the same capacity as so much other current television doesn't make the new Trek some adults-only, niche product. They're trying to get Trek into the Walking Dead fanbases. It's just a different kind of pandering and selling out, and as it goes largely against traditional Trek style, as you noted, more family friendly, does that not now make the franchise more sell-out? No one said Metallica sold out "less" by completely switching gears from their older style, for instance.

Again, this has become kind of a self-defeating circle. If as you say, prior to Discovery, Trek was mostly/just for families, and this new Trek is not, then that defines it as more "sell-out."

The biggest point here though, is how much Discovery abandons "traditional" Trekking. Previously, even with changes, other Trek franchises clung pretty hard to Trek methodologies and formula. The Abrams movies broke with that formula as hard as possible, veering into territory better suited for Star Wars or Independence Day. Thoughtful storytelling and character arcs were replaced by lowest-common-denominator space-action storytelling and wild coincidences. Flash and pizzazz were prioritized, and violence was used to solve everything.

If Discovery veers closer to the Abrams "lowest common denominator audience" storytelling, it is more sell-out. All the advertising prior to the release of the series focused on precisely that.

True Trek is TOS, TAS, the six TOS films, TNG, the four TNG films, DS9, VOY, and ENT. Fake Trek is the Jar Jar films and DIS. Personally I would be ok forgoing the TNG films and ENT because they are not so good, but they retain enough Trek qualities to be considered "True Trek".

The difference is that True Trek is not modern action blockbuster soap opera relying entirely on nostalgia imagery to trick fans of True Trek whereas Fake Trek is.

There is no "no true scotsman" because Fake and True are perfectly distinguishable in the context of Trek.

Do not throw out random accusations of logical fallacies when they are not applicable.

I dunno man, I would 100% call the Jar Jar Abrams films Fake Trek, but DIS at least makes something of an effort, and there are glimmers of quality and "trueness" here and there. To put it in Sarcofago terms, DIS has entried, but I'm not quite ready to burn and die it yet.

Finished the new season of "Peaky Blinders." Another solid set of episodes, though the "endless deception and twists" style plots went way over the top. One of the twists, involving Michael, made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Hahahahah, agreed.

I'm way behind the times and am now just starting Season 4 of Black Mirror (3 episodes in). My wife doesn't really dig the show so I'm watching them sporadically at work. I totally agree with the consensus so far as in USS Callister and Arkangel are fantastic episodes. Great characters, well thought out, basically everything that is good about Black Mirror. For Crocodile, the jury is still out for me. I liked the bleak atmosphere and the overall feel it creates, but I do agree that the episode doesn't seem to fleshed out completely. Just missing something overall. After seeing the high praise for Hang the DJ I'm going to try and watch it this afternoon.

I love Black Mirror. I didn't watch them in order, but I saw the last one that I hadn't seen last night. The one with the drone bees.

For me, Arkangel and Crocodile are on two completely opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of character development. Arkangel felt to me like something that absolutely could happen and the episode does well in making you sympathize with both the mother and the daughter. Crocodile, on the other hand, was hard to take seriously. The audience is given absolutely no reason to believe anything the main character does makes any sense at all given her personality and the situation she is in.

Thanks to "San Junipero", Belinda Carlisle's "Heaven is a Place on Earth" has been stuck in my head ever since seeing that BM episode.

80's pop was so good.

Finished Altered Carbon and thought it was great.

Also binge-watched Happy! and I *really* enjoyed it. I particularly liked the character of Nick Sax.

I would like to just throw out some Devil's Advocate for Enterprise. While it became a red-headed stepchild of the franchise, it's better than the sum of it's parts. The first season is an almost forgettable slog, the second mingles with possibility, but the third and fourth seasons are actually quite solid. I'd say they are strong enough that they usurp Voyager, and plant Voyager firmly at the bottom of the list in terms of overall quality.

I'm not saying Voyager isn't "true Trek" or anything, only that it was a low-bar for the franchise, where nearly ever plot was "treknobabble threatens ship, threknobabble solution 1 fails, treknobabble solution 2 succeeds," which made it overall rather boring. I was watching all Trek series with an ex-girlfriend, and we felt Voyager was so bad, we stopped, watched Battlestar Galactica instead, forced ourselves to finish Voyager, and then feared Enterprise. When all was said and done, we walked away enjoying Enterprise, but not Voyager.

Voyager failed in it's original set-up, which was that it was a crew made up of starkly different people--half Federation, half Marquis. That should have led to some great character drama, but it just... didn't. They didn't get good characters until the Doctor developed a personality and Seven joined the crew.

Disclaimer: The only Trek series my ex and I didn't watch was the animated series. I don't recall why. I think it was as simple as it might not have been streaming anywhere at the time.

You should definitely check out TAS. If you go by the ratio of A+ episodes to total episodes, then TAS is arguably the best Trek series. It's genuinely surprising I know, but there are a bunch of good eps. My favorites are the one where we see young Spock, the one where they meet Satan and practice black magic, and the one where they meet Quetzalcoatl and re-enact King Lear.