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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:33 am 
 

AboveTheThrone wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
And how can we be really sure that the guy who made explicitly racist comments is really a racist, you guys? :thinking emoji:

Such as?

Islam is a religion, not a race.


Even if you want to split hairs, it's weird that you think discriminating against a religion in such a way is okay.

But yeah if you're saying an American citizen who looks different than you isn't fit to be in office because of your perception of what his beliefs are, you're a racist.

Don't expect my comments to sink in with the edgy "both sides are bad" crowd though.
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Morrigan
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:03 am 
 

^ Exactly this. Not to mention, a rabid Christian fundamentalist who hates women and gays probably has more in common, ideologically, with the extremist/Salafist branches of Islam than your average American Muslim serving in Congress.

You can oppose Islam and Islamist beliefs without being an Islamophobe, but that is NOT what evangelical Christian Republicans are EVER doing.

Pretty ironic that the GOP loves to dog-whistle their racism by perpetuating Sharia Law fearmongering, when, unlike American Muslims, they're the ones eroding abortion rights, ignoring or downplaying sexual assault and harassment*, opposing equal rights from LGBT people, etc. Disgusting transparent hypocrites, the whole lot of 'em.

* unless it's done by Democrats
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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:47 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:

Even if you want to split hairs, it's weird that you think discriminating against a religion in such a way is okay.



To be fair, religions are just collections of bad/obsolete/shitty/stupid/ignorant/hateful ideas and little else. All religions, except maybe LaVey's Church of Satan, which is just silly for other reasons. They deliberately created "commandments" to make Christianity look stupid. Or more so, I suppose. Discriminating against the people fool enough to believe in the religion is wrong.

Your point was more that Roy Moore was discriminating against Muslims "because brown people," is not lost on me. Totally accurate and par for the course for the American Republican party. So yeah, I am just splitting hairs because semantics. Probably my favorite quote on Islam/Muslims concerning American society and politics is "Conservatives are wrong about Muslims, Liberals are wrong about Islam."

I can't get over just how bad Christians are, in this country, at understanding their own fucking teaching and preachings and religion. Voting for a born-rich monster like Trump, while espousing supposed teachings of Jesus, who said--in their book--that wealthy cannot get into heaven. Claiming to love and protect children when it concerns abortion, while simultaneously voting for a monster who literally went out of his way to fucking harm children. There are good reasons religion is beginning a rapid decline in this country.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:52 am 
 

Well yeah, I'm no fan of religions and wouldn't want Muslims imposing their beliefs on me in the way that Christians currently do in this country, either. I think all of them are toxic and if it works for you, keep it the fuck in church and don't bother others.

My post was referring to the idea of a guy who could be an influential leader in this country using his bully pulpit to smear someone else of a different religion as a roundabout way of saying his own monstrous ideals are somehow better. So it seems like we agree pretty much.
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~Guest 373247
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:57 am 
 

I would argue that people of any faith are unfit for office... which is the main reason I liked Obama despite his affinity for signing off on drone strikes and unconstitional domestic surveillance.

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~Guest 98976
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:49 am 
 

I can agree with that in full, but wasn't there a change in politics where Republicans realized they needed the "religious vote", and at some point in the past, they started targeting the religious demographic?

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:50 am 
 

As much as I'd love that to be true, something like 94 percent of Americans believe in God in some way or other, so it'd be pretty difficult to do. I don't care what people believe if they can set it aside and not lord it over everyone through decisions that affect other people, though.
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~Guest 226319
President Satan

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:17 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
You can oppose Islam and Islamist beliefs without being an Islamophobe

Good point. Similar to how people can criticize the democratic party without being a "both sides are the same edgelord" or a Trump supporter.

FasterDisaster wrote:
I can agree with that in full, but wasn't there a change in politics where Republicans realized they needed the "religious vote", and at some point in the past, they started targeting the religious demographic?


Reagan struck a deal with evangelical leaders that if they supported him he'd give them the sun and the moon. Reagan, of course, delivered nothing, but evangelical xtians have been activated as a republican voting bloc since then. In ye olde days, for example, abortion was considered a catholic issue by evangelicals and baptists, but it was made into a political issue by activists who connected them to the republican party in the 70's and 80's. Since then it's been the republican party dictating what those religious organizations preach more than the other way around. It just happens that the republican party is itself a weird fundie cult too. A great example of this was when Pat Robertson changed from calling Mormonism a cult to accepting it as a christian sect when he endorsed Mitt Romney.

Anyway, as much as I agree with total, ultimate opposition to religion, atheism doesn't automatically make people better. Both Obama and Trump are probably atheists and it hasn't stopped them from sucking.

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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:37 pm 
 

FasterDisaster wrote:
I can agree with that in full, but wasn't there a change in politics where Republicans realized they needed the "religious vote", and at some point in the past, they started targeting the religious demographic?



Yep.



There is a second part to this.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:41 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:

Anyway, as much as I agree with total, ultimate opposition to religion, atheism doesn't automatically make people better. Both Obama and Trump are probably atheists and it hasn't stopped them from sucking.


Wrong on both counts. Both are religious.

Trump actually seems to follow the absurd "prosperity gospel", which teaches people that God and Jesus totally, for real you guys, super love the ultra-wealthy. He has also been reported to believe that the human body is like a fucking battery with an in-born limit of total energy, which is why he doesn't exercise, because he believes that will run the battery out faster. And you thought the insanity stopped at conspiracy theories and racism.

No, atheism does not automatically mean someone is a better person. But it does, generally, mean someone is less likely to be guided by archaic, harmful ideologies. But people can still adopt plenty of other completely asinine belief systems, be it in Reptoid overlords, vaccine denialism, global warming denialism, flat eartherism, or harmful political ideologies.

More important is general rational, science-based skepticism. Of course, people being what they are, occasionally some even manage to fuck that up.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:51 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
Good point. Similar to how people can criticize the democratic party without being a "both sides are the same edgelord" or a Trump supporter.

Durr, if only people actually did that and did NOT actually "both sided" constantly which is what I specifically had a problem with...

Quote:
Anyway, as much as I agree with total, ultimate opposition to religion, atheism doesn't automatically make people better. Both Obama and Trump are probably atheists and it hasn't stopped them from sucking.

Out of curiosity, is there a single US president that you think didn't suck?
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I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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~Guest 21181
The Great Fearmonger

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:20 pm 
 

To be fair, it's been 17 years since we've had a merely average president, and a quarter-century since we've had one who knew what the hell he was doing on the day he walked into the oval office. And that average president was a rapist.

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~Guest 373247
Village Idiot

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:23 pm 
 

Kennedy is probably my all-time favorite president because of his comment: "I will splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the wind".

He had serious testicular fortitude to go against the establishment like that. Now we have a president who is the establishment.

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~Guest 226319
President Satan

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:00 pm 
 

Grant is my favorite president.

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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

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Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:45 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
Grant is my favorite president.

John, we've been over this--just because you come from the future doesn't mean you have to spoil the fact that Grant Imahara becomes president in 2028. Some of us like the suspense. :{
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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:03 am 
 

I'm 52 years old and the only two presidents in my lifetime that I think were actually decent, honest folk with integrity were Carter and Obama.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:33 pm 
 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/16/health/cd ... index.html

The Trump administration orders the CDC not to use the words fetus, transgender, science-based, evidence-based and more in their documents and papers next year. This is creeping fascism. No reason at all for this shit.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:48 pm 
 

^ Came here to post this (with a different link, not that it matters).

I wait with bated breath as the alt-right "free speech" brigade reacts with outrage from this actual government censorship and take to the street in protest. Right?

Edit: no seriously LOOK AT THIS ORWELLIAN SHIT

Quote:
In some instances, the analysts were given alternative phrases. Instead of “science-based” or “evidence-based,” the suggested phrase is “CDC bases its recommendations on science in consideration with community standards and wishes,” the person said. In other cases, no replacement words were immediately offered.


asdgshdfhjtgfjgh this is even worse than what Harper did
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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~Guest 373247
Village Idiot

Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:56 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:18 pm 
 

Like I've said before: Trump is literally a fascist. He puts zero consideration into dissenting arguments and only does what he wants to do -- characteristic of a dictator. The main duty of a president is to unite the citizens and represent *all* of them, not just the ones he/she likes. Trump has done the exact opposite since Day One.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:23 pm 
 

AboveTheThrone wrote:
Like I've said before: Trump is literally a fascist.

On that we do agree.

Speaking of...
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Napalm_Satan
Ever-Opening Flower

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:27 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:52 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
I wait with bated breath as the alt-right "free speech" brigade reacts with outrage from this actual government censorship and take to the street in protest. Right?


Free speech should only be defended if it can be used to berate the marginalised, apparently.
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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:04 am 
 

Napalm_Satan wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
I wait with bated breath as the alt-right "free speech" brigade reacts with outrage from this actual government censorship and take to the street in protest. Right?


Free speech should only be defended if it can be used to berate the marginalised, apparently.

The question is if those same "free speechers" actually supported this or not. Who's gonna take that poll though?
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Face_your_fear_79
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:11 am 
 

MrMcThrasher II wrote:
Not supporting undocumented immigrants makes you racist apparently. Good to know. Stopped reading the article there.


Bad deal for any one reading the article. I'm glad I don't have to go through the process of reading it but at the same time I am sorry for the people who had to read it or chose to.

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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:16 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/16/health/cdc-banned-words/index.html

The Trump administration orders the CDC not to use the words fetus, transgender, science-based, evidence-based and more in their documents and papers next year. This is creeping fascism. No reason at all for this shit.

Um...please be careful of what you post as fact. That article has not been verified as factual and it has only one source. Not to say that it is or isn't factual but it has not been verified. Something deriving from only one source is suspicious until it is found to be fact.

https://www.snopes.com/2017/12/15/trump-administration-bans-cdc-officials-using-certain-words/
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:07 pm 
 

^ Washington Post also reported on it. See my link above.

Your snopes link doesn't refute the story. It just includes a reply statement that calls it a "mischaracterization" but doesn't elaborate on what the mischaracterization was, or what's really going on. Sketchy as fuck.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:12 pm 
 

Yeah, seems like the Post is the originating source. The fact HHS is being purposefully vague in response is definitely sketchy af.
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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:30 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
^ Washington Post also reported on it. See my link above.

Your snopes link doesn't refute the story. It just includes a reply statement that calls it a "mischaracterization" but doesn't elaborate on what the mischaracterization was, or what's really going on. Sketchy as fuck.

CNN sourced the Washington Post article making the Post the sole source. No one at the CDC has either confirmed nor denied this story and has not responded to Snopes' request for verification. Therefore Snopes is saying the story is unverified!
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:15 pm 
 

Sure. But it ain't looking good.

Dr. Gorski is unimpressed: https://twitter.com/gorskon/status/942491003524612096
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Von Cichlid wrote:
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:17 pm 
 

Um....look hard enough and you may be able to find out what the CDC has to say...

https://twitter.com/CDCDirector/status/ ... 27776?s=17
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~Guest 98976
Metal Pounder

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:32 pm 
 

That appears to put the kibosh on that. I read the Washington Post article, but I can't recall if they said this was sourced from multiple people or not.

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Derigin
The Mountain Man

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:35 pm 
 

The source was just a single policy analyst, according to both Snopes and the Post article.

The person had apparently attended a briefing from their bosses which went over the official documents being planned for next year's budget.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:52 am 
 

The twitter thread has many people rightfully questioning the statement and no answer yet. I DO hope the WaPo report was wrong, but WaPo isn't the kind that prints articles irresponsibly, so I'm still wary.

The government DOES ban research on gun control stats, never forget that. They aren't above this kind of censorship.
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Von Cichlid wrote:
I work with plenty of Oriental and Indian persons and we get along pretty good, and some females as well.

Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
a fairly agreed upon date [of the beginning of metal] is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old

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Erosion of Humanity
Destroyer of the Gods

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:42 am 
 

WaPo article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... 279d56aa9d

IFLS article where they remind you other times Trump and Co have sought to ban science from government: http://www.iflscience.com/policy/the-tr ... ven-words/

Normally I'd say hold off and collect the facts, with the way this administration operates amd with their desire to oppress science and facts in favor of religious zealotry I'd venture a guess this is probably true.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:47 am 
 

The original story says they heard it was coming down the pipe for 2018 documents and that they had heard about it in a meeting - all the CDC official said on Twitter was that no words are currently banned. And it's good that they are sticking to their guns but it doesn't prove the Trump administration won't try this, either.

That Snopes article doesn't really refute it - it quotes a HHS official saying 'banned' is a mischaracterization of what happened.

So I hope you're right and it's not an accurate story, but it's important to hear about this stuff anyway until it is 100% proved false, and to keep tabs on the attempts at fasicst-style rhetoric and practices this administration does. Here's hoping it isn't true. Sometimes journalism at this level gets a bit vague on the sources and I doubt they'd just be making anything up - the consequences for that are too great.
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darkeningday
xXdArKenIngDayXx

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:07 am 
 

On a lighter note:

:-D
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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:41 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
The original story says they heard it was coming down the pipe for 2018 documents and that they had heard about it in a meeting - all the CDC official said on Twitter was that no words are currently banned. And it's good that they are sticking to their guns but it doesn't prove the Trump administration won't try this, either.

That Snopes article doesn't really refute it - it quotes a HHS official saying 'banned' is a mischaracterization of what happened.

So I hope you're right and it's not an accurate story, but it's important to hear about this stuff anyway until it is 100% proved false, and to keep tabs on the attempts at fasicst-style rhetoric and practices this administration does. Here's hoping it isn't true. Sometimes journalism at this level gets a bit vague on the sources and I doubt they'd just be making anything up - the consequences for that are too great.


If this isn't accurate, then I want to know where this information came from and why. Because this is one of those things that, even if it's hyperbole or incorrect, it falls in line with this shitty administration, and would not be a surprise. Only dictators ban words.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:33 am 
 

Whatever the truth is came from rumblings that the WaPo acquired through journalistic reporting. Maybe the fact that these whispers and rumblings were reported will result in the administration not actually going forward. I don't have much doubt that there's truth to it though. I don't think any journalists here are fabricating.
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:17 pm 
 

The latest on it: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/c ... the-agency

Quote:
But in follow-up reporting, The New York Times cited “a few” CDC officials who suggested the move was not meant as an outright ban, but rather, a technique to help secure Republican approval of the 2019 budget by eliminating certain words and phrases.

So, they have to avoid certain words so they don't offend a group of people, Republicans, who are incredibly sensitive about certain subjects. How PC.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:33 pm 
 

Wouldn't want to offend those special snowflakes.
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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:06 pm 
 

I don't understand how Evidence Based can really offend anyone but I'm not borderline retarded so...
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