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ThanatosUK
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:07 am
Posts: 199
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:04 am 
 

Against Such Things wrote:
Can someone tell me what the "essentials" of funeral doom are, especially if it has black metal influences?


I'm at work so can't post Youtube links, but you can't go wrong with these:

Skepticism - Stormcrowfleet
Thergothon - Stream from the Heavens
Esoteric - The Pernicious Enigma
Mournful Congregation - The Monad of Creation

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TheUnhinged
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:28 pm
Posts: 242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:10 pm 
 

TheUnhinged wrote:
I am a big fan of death/doom and gothic/doom, and I am look to find a band that plays a style of death/doom that sounds majestic, well-nuanced, and has a lot going on. I want to hear elements like folk/gothic/medieval instruments (violins, flutes, organs) and clean vocals in the mix, yet the music still sounds intense and heavy. I am not looking to hear the more clean, modern, melodic sounding bands like Swallow the Sun or Wine from Tears. I am also not looking for bands that border on funeral doom, like Evoken or The Slow Death. Here are some examples of albums that specifically suit what I am searching for.

Spoiler: show
Ashes You Leave - First three albums
Thorns of the Carrion - The Scarlet Tapestry
Morgion - Among Majestic Ruin
In Somnis - The Memory You've Become
Whispering Forest - Of Shadows and Pale Light
Desire - Infinity... A Timeless Journey into an Emotional Dream
Estatic Fear - Somnium Obmutum
Officium Triste - Ne Viviam
Grindmaster Dead - Stronger than Love
Silent Stream of Godless Elegy - Iron
Paramaecium - Within the Ancient Forest
Dissolving of Prodigy - Lamentations of Innocents
Crestfallen - Secrets of Time
Autumnal Discord - The Quest
Ars Moriendi - Sightlessness
Thy Withering Orchard - Soft Glow of Perishing Cold


Azrael44 wrote:
Absurd Existence, Eternal Deformity, Celestial Season


Absurd Existence was good. Eternal Deformity, I liked, but it wasn't quite what I had in mind. I am familiar with Celestial Season, and their first two albums are indeed a good example of what I'm looking for!

droneriot wrote:
Castle


I thought they were good, not great. A bit too cold and mechanical for my tastes, not quite what I was looking for.

Morphine1873 wrote:
Forest Stream, Black Forest, Lanthanein


Forest Stream and Black Forest were good. Black Forest was a good indicator of what I had in mind. Lanthanein was a bit too saccharine for me. They sounded more like gothic metal, in my opinion.

I found a few more albums that fit the bill of what I was talking about.

Adagio - Romantic Serenades
Antiqua - In Red Nights...
The Bloody Earth - Requiem of the Weeping Souls
Forty Days Longing - Head of the Demon
Lacrimas Profundere - ...and the Wings Embraced Us
Maelstrom - Sospiria, Lacrima: Tenebrae
Monasterial Crypt - Stáří

I guess you could say what I'm looking for is Atmospheric Death/Doom Metal with a raw edge to it.

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I Am the Law
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:46 pm
Posts: 641
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:56 pm 
 

sebas4423 wrote:
Anyone got some recommendations for someone who enjoys this song a lot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y8dAIqdw2o

but has a hard time finding anything else he likes that sounds similar? I just loved both the instrumentals and the vocals.
I am aware and liked bands such as:

October Tide
Swallow the sun

But now I've run completely dry...


Definitely recommend to you the newest Doom:VS album Earthless. The vocalist from Saturnus is on that album. The music isn't 100% similar but very close.

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Morphine1873
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:36 pm
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:16 pm 
 

TheUnhinged wrote:
I guess you could say what I'm looking for is Atmospheric Death/Doom Metal with a raw edge to it.


Would Nightrealm fit the bill? It's more funeral than death doom though, it's abit like a rawer Pantheist... Meaning also that there're no female vocals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRIhasGh95A

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Deathdoom1992
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 07, 2016 9:19 am
Posts: 352
Location: Wallowing in a sea of sorrow.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:01 pm 
 

Against Such Things wrote:
Can someone tell me what the "essentials" of funeral doom are, especially if it has black metal influences?


Generally it's not black metal influenced, there are a few bands I'm sure although I'm not an expert so I don't know specifics. I think a lot of would-be black-funeral-doom is covered by either atmospheric black or blackened death. Essentially, funeral doom is death-doom at 100 times slower. Funeral doom bands tend to have extremely deep gutturals but they can be mixed very quietly. There can also be ambient/industrial elements at times, but naturally varies from band to band. The wikipedia entry reads thusly:

"Funeral doom is a style of doom metal that crosses death-doom with funeral dirge music. It is played at a very slow tempo, and places an emphasis on evoking a sense of emptiness and despair. Typically, electric guitars are heavily distorted and dark ambient aspects such as keyboards or synthesizers are often used to create a "dreamlike" atmosphere. Vocals consist of mournful chants or growls and are often in the background. Funeral doom was pioneered by Mournful Congregation (Australia), Esoteric (United Kingdom), Evoken (United States), Funeral (Norway), Thergothon (Finland), Skepticism (Finland) and Corrupted (Japan)."

If you're looking for something blackened, check this out:
http://bloodov.bandcamp.com/releases

They only have the one EP but it's pretty solid.

Also, thanks for all the recommendations guys, I had a huge order of albums arrive in late July so I'm only starting to check 'em out now.

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AshaGreyjoy
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:28 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:05 pm 
 

@TheUnhinged
Maybe you'd enjoy Morito Ergo Sum, they are like a My Dying Bride clone but they're surely worrh a listen
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9PuIWfAm7o

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theagentcoma
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 12:31 am
Posts: 451
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:06 am 
 

I'm pretty new to the genre but I vastly enjoyed Four Phantoms by Bell Witch and Chasms by Lycus. Out of the classics, I've really only heard Thergothon. I'm looking for a combination of modern/classic albums to check out in the genre. The Bell Witch record is my fav, minimalistic and dirge-like.

Suggestions?
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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8591
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:26 am 
 

I suggest the Skepticism discography because it is a combination of modern/classic albums. The debut is a classic, and later albums are a more modern take on their sound.
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Azrael44
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 11:39 am
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:17 am 
 

I guess that band was already mentioned, but Nox Aurea is really underrated. They have done 2 albums by far, and each of them took some time to grow on me.
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Nox ... 3540289789
They play Gothic Death Doom with Beauty & The Beast style, music is filled with many symphonic parts like Draconian or Theatre Of Tragedy. I liked 'Via Gnosis' after first listening, but i kept on discovering new things after every listen. 'Ascending In Triumph' is more artistic i would say, felt weird on me after first 2 listenings, but now i find it Awesome. Its a decent continuation to 'Via Gnosis'. I will put few songs of both albums.
Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Emendare is one of the greatest outros ever

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Morphine1873
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:36 pm
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:44 am 
 

TheUnhinged wrote:
I am a big fan of death/doom and gothic/doom, and I am look to find a band that plays a style of death/doom that sounds majestic, well-nuanced, and has a lot going on. I want to hear elements like folk/gothic/medieval instruments (violins, flutes, organs) and clean vocals in the mix, yet the music still sounds intense and heavy.



I've stumbled across this band, and as I remembered your request, it's not all you want, but it sounds raw and melodic:

http://eternal-sorrow.bandcamp.com/albu ... -of-regret

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Warlord Wossman
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:47 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:14 am 
 

I can recommend the german Death/Doom band Morast to anyone here. They only got a 26 minute long demo out atm but it's really damn good imo:

Youtube: show

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Dragunov
Veteran

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:34 pm
Posts: 2669
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:57 am 
 

Any recommendations for more recent death/doom or funeral doom that has very prominent bass guitar? I'm fine with that prominence being determined solely by the tone of the bass, whether it's incredibly nasty sounding or just has an unusual flavor to it, but what I'm truly after is music where the bass does a lot more than provide a foundation for the guitars. Counterpoint melodies, harmonies, or music where there are just a lot of sick bass lines. :nods:
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TheUnhinged
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:28 pm
Posts: 242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:56 pm 
 

Dragunov wrote:
Any recommendations for more recent death/doom or funeral doom that has very prominent bass guitar? I'm fine with that prominence being determined solely by the tone of the bass, whether it's incredibly nasty sounding or just has an unusual flavor to it, but what I'm truly after is music where the bass does a lot more than provide a foundation for the guitars. Counterpoint melodies, harmonies, or music where there are just a lot of sick bass lines. :nods:


Façade from the Netherlands is where it's at. Very ugly death/doom metal with a nice, bouncy bass tone. Only downside is that they've only released a two-song EP so far!

http://facadedoom.bandcamp.com/

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The Ardbeg Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:57 am
Posts: 800
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:52 pm 
 

TheUnhinged wrote:
Dragunov wrote:
Any recommendations for more recent death/doom or funeral doom that has very prominent bass guitar? I'm fine with that prominence being determined solely by the tone of the bass, whether it's incredibly nasty sounding or just has an unusual flavor to it, but what I'm truly after is music where the bass does a lot more than provide a foundation for the guitars. Counterpoint melodies, harmonies, or music where there are just a lot of sick bass lines. :nods:


Façade from the Netherlands is where it's at. Very ugly death/doom metal with a nice, bouncy bass tone. Only downside is that they've only released a two-song EP so far!

http://facadedoom.bandcamp.com/


You pronounce it as, Fa-Chaad? Haha
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Azrael44
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 11:39 am
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:59 am 
 

Hey guys, can you recommend me some bands/albums that sound similar to Ahabs first album? im looking mainly for Funeral Doom. Lesser known bands are welcome
I already know Evoken, Lycus, Solemn They Await, Tyranny, Ataraxie, Bellaras.

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Kerrick
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:02 pm
Posts: 824
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:23 pm 
 

Dragunov wrote:
Any recommendations for more recent death/doom or funeral doom that has very prominent bass guitar? I'm fine with that prominence being determined solely by the tone of the bass, whether it's incredibly nasty sounding or just has an unusual flavor to it, but what I'm truly after is music where the bass does a lot more than provide a foundation for the guitars. Counterpoint melodies, harmonies, or music where there are just a lot of sick bass lines. :nods:


Not too recent so maybe you're already familiar, but Morgion's final album Cloaked By Ages, Crowned In Earth comes to mind. The bass creates this oceanic atmosphere that is just spectacular. Doesn't look like anything from that album is on Youtube or Bandcamp but I'm sure you can find other ways to listen to it. I highly recommend just buying it; I doubt you'd be let down.

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Warlord Wossman
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:47 pm
Posts: 101
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:49 pm 
 

Death/Doom version of Bathory - Armageddon:
https://soundcloud.com/cvltnation/cvlt-nation-sessions-bathory-morast-armageddon

Pretty sick if you ask me! Looking forward to the full length Morast wants to release next year, this and the demo have my hopes up.

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gabalgabow
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:53 am
Posts: 1020
Location: France
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:40 am 
 

LOSS
Crushing and dark doom death.

Youtube: show


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPNjZj3Uis4
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Morphine1873
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:36 pm
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:44 am 
 

Kerrick wrote:
Dragunov wrote:
Any recommendations for more recent death/doom or funeral doom that has very prominent bass guitar? I'm fine with that prominence being determined solely by the tone of the bass, whether it's incredibly nasty sounding or just has an unusual flavor to it, but what I'm truly after is music where the bass does a lot more than provide a foundation for the guitars. Counterpoint melodies, harmonies, or music where there are just a lot of sick bass lines. :nods:


Maybe the best way to find what you're looking for is to check out the bands that have no guitarist, but only a bassist?

Like Bell Witch and Horse Latitudes

There's also that death doom band, De Profundis, that had a funky-sounding bass on their first couple of albums.

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Morphine1873
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:36 pm
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:48 am 
 

Azrael44 wrote:
Hey guys, can you recommend me some bands/albums that sound similar to Ahabs first album? im looking mainly for Funeral Doom. Lesser known bands are welcome
I already know Evoken, Lycus, Solemn They Await, Tyranny, Ataraxie, Bellaras.


Try Indesinence too; particularly their Ep Neptunian, and then Gallileous' first EP, Passio et Mors

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4695
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:36 pm 
 

as good as indesinence are they take way more from incantation.

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droneriot
cisgender

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8591
Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:59 pm 
 

Indesinence sound like typical British death/doom of the early 90s, somewhere between Paradise Lost's debut, My Dying Bride's death metal parts and lesser known bands like Decomposed. Some parts even remind me of Bolt Thrower or Benediction slowing down. People compare the oddest stuff to Incantation.
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Morphine1873
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:36 pm
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:28 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Indesinence sound like typical British death/doom of the early 90s, somewhere between Paradise Lost's debut, My Dying Bride's death metal parts and lesser known bands like Decomposed. Some parts even remind me of Bolt Thrower or Benediction slowing down. People compare the oddest stuff to Incantation.


The slowest parts outweigh by far the faster ones. It's vastly slower and darker than MDB or PL and it doesn't have the same old-school grain... Noctambulism is so slow it's verging on boring, imo.
It depends on each song, but overall, it's a dead somber and slow death doom act.

Youtube: show

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TrueDynamite
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:13 pm
Posts: 1863
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:40 pm 
 

So, I just recently got into death-doom and I've been to addicted to Swallow the Sun. I also like Daylight Dies. I prefer death-doom that has heavy, fuzzy guitars and a 'big' sound. Some stuff I've listened to just comes across as slow death metal.

Related: Where do I start with funeral doom? The only band I know is Ahab. Thanks!
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MikeyC
Official Greeter of Broken Hills

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:16 am
Posts: 13832
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:47 pm 
 

Regarding Indesinence, I only have Vessels of Light and Decay and III, and I vastly prefer the former. What are their other releases like, especially the debut album?
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PorcupineOfDoom
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:52 pm
Posts: 151
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:51 pm 
 

TrueDynamite wrote:
So, I just recently got into death-doom and I've been to addicted to Swallow the Sun. I also like Daylight Dies. I prefer death-doom that has heavy, fuzzy guitars and a 'big' sound. Some stuff I've listened to just comes across as slow death metal.


Death/doom is something I'm relatively new to as well, but based on Swallow the Sun I have a few recommendations for you:

My personal favourite band in the genre is Red Moon Architect, who I share at every possible opportunity. They've released two brilliant albums thus far (Concealed Silence and Fall), and hopefully a third isn't too far away. Lots of slow heavy thunder countered by melodic passages, should hopefully be what you're after.

Another band I love recommending is Endlesshade. As of yet they've only produced one album, but what a beast it is. Dark, powerful, crushing and somehow still beautiful, well worth giving a spin. It isn't pure death/doom, but the other elements are utilised tastefully and they breathe life into the project.

Not really death/doom this one, but To Cast a Shadow sound to me like they've got everything you're after. Their album In Memory Of is mightily heavy with a mighty bass presence and thundering guitars. Harsh vocals are mostly absent though. No one has uploaded the full album to YT, but give the title track a try. The rest of the album is on there somewhere, or alternatively on Spotify.

Doom:VS might also take your fancy as they combine death/doom with funeral doom. As a result they sound a lot like a slower and more depressed version of your average death/doom band. Something about it resonates with me, and I adore their latest album Earthless.

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TrueDynamite
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:13 pm
Posts: 1863
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:15 pm 
 

Red Moon Architect is really cool. I'll have to listen to more of their music. I know Endlesshade and Doom:VS and I like both. To Cast a Shadow isn't bad, but I'm looking for mostly harsh vocals (that aren't layered to hell and back - RM Architect and STS vocals are what I'm looking for). I probably should have said that in my post. Thanks!

Edit: I'm a massive fan of harmonized harsh/clean vocals, so if that exists in death-doom, I'd love to hear it.
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Kerrick
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:02 pm
Posts: 824
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:04 pm 
 

Do you know Forest Of Shadows?
Youtube: show

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PorcupineOfDoom
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:52 pm
Posts: 151
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:22 pm 
 

Alright, good to know that at least one of the recs was of use to you. Another band that I'd forgotten about that might be of interest to you is Kaunis Kuolematon. These guys lie somewhere between RMA and STS, so hopefully you'll enjoy what they've got to offer. All their lyrics are in Finnish if that matters, but some of their best tracks imo are 'En Ole Mitään', 'Pimeyden Valtakunta' and 'Itsestään Kuollut'.

TrueDynamite wrote:
Edit: I'm a massive fan of harmonized harsh/clean vocals, so if that exists in death-doom, I'd love to hear it.


I feel like I should know some bands for this one, but off the top of my head nothing really comes to mind... Maybe The Slow Death, but I don't really recall whether the vocals are ever used in tandem or just go through phases of cleans and growls. Draconian comes to mind, but again they're more gothic/doom than death/doom.

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TrueDynamite
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:13 pm
Posts: 1863
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:20 am 
 

Kerrick - Good rec! Those vocals are fantastic.

Porcupine - I like the Kaunis stuff when they don't have the vocals layered (I hope that's the correct term).
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Kerrick
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:02 pm
Posts: 824
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:49 pm 
 

TrueDynamite wrote:
Kerrick - Good rec! Those vocals are fantastic.


Glad you like! Their first album will forever remind me of studying in the dark study-room of the campus coffee shop back in my college days...

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Morphine1873
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:36 pm
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:12 am 
 

MikeyC wrote:
Regarding Indesinence, I only have Vessels of Light and Decay and III, and I vastly prefer the former. What are their other releases like, especially the debut album?


Like I said, they played some good somber, almost funerary death doom. I feel there were more of those ultra heavy, funeral-paced numbers on their first three releases.

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Azrael44
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 11:39 am
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:34 pm 
 

I want to put some light on band called Deos http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Deos/3540370344
I came across their album https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96PZ8MF4XOs on youtube and decided to share this one with all funeral doomsters. The album is atmospheric, mournful and slow, good example of funeral doom since many bands are considered funeral when they are death/doom. The band have no reviews and no recomendations sticked to it so i thought i show it to you guys.

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Morphine1873
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:36 pm
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:43 am 
 

Yes, Deos is a good band. I you like real, uncompromising Funeral Doom, I suggest you give a close listen to SLOW, the FD project by Déhà, active creative member of Deos. Especially Slow III Gaïa is a gem in the style.

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Azrael44
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 11:39 am
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:50 am 
 

yeah i found them couple days ago, im gonna listen to that album soon. Talking about Slow, there is another band called Slow that play funeral doom.
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Slow/3540379651
They put out only one but decent album with growls like drowning, they got their own theme connected with sea depths and drowning, interesting stuff.

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Morphine1873
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:36 pm
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:00 pm 
 

Yes, I know them too... The mine Slow is from Belgium, the other from the USA. It's not bad at all, but it fails in conveying the same uncompromising intensity as their Belgian homonym; I feel they're more resorting to a tried and tested formula... I don't find them as impressive.

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deadpiece
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:56 am
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:24 am 
 

Hey guys, my band (Ocean Of Grief) released a new song in a lyric video form and if someone wants to check it out and most importantly share ANY opinion I would be more than happy :) We play melodic doom/death
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKTaoSQyCpY

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IamDBR
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 am
Posts: 1445
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:30 am 
 

Verbum - Processio Flagellates; absolutely hellish blackened death/doom with monstrous vocals, foreboding 'riffing' & blasting frenzies, rediscovered it while looking around & holy shit (!) it's still as crushing as it was on the first listening. Put down that Khemmis & give this a listen.

https://penitenziagiterecords.bandcamp. ... lagellates

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Azrael44
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 11:39 am
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:48 pm 
 

I dont know who has mentioned it before but Celestiial is so good. Highly atmospheric and game changing
Youtube: show


Also im lately looking for funeral doom with organ pipes, i hope you can help me guys

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Talented Juli
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:36 pm
Posts: 86
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:06 am 
 

Does anybody know anything with that same crushing "oomph" to it that Thorr's Hammer has? I'm thinking like the "bass drop" (if you want to call it that) in Norge.
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