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Jonpo
Hypercolombowler

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:58 pm 
 

Bandcamp is blocked at work. I'm sure a handful of their stuff is on youtube though. I just think they might be worth a blind leap, to be honest. It's tough though, a lot of new bands nail their aesthetic and then can't quite back it up. I just have a good feeling about these guys.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 25691
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:00 pm 
 

Jonpo wrote:
Bandcamp is blocked at work. I'm sure a handful of their stuff is on youtube though. I just think they might be worth a blind leap, to be honest. It's tough though, a lot of new bands nail their aesthetic and then can't quite back it up. I just have a good feeling about these guys.


I can't picture you disliking it, though it appeals to me as a fan of later Slough Feg and 70s rock/prog as much as 80s obscure metal, so your liking it really depends on how much you like its weird disparate influences. The production and vocals are definitely suitably gritty and brash though.
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Nahsil
Clerical Sturmgeschütz

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:06 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:07 pm 
 

I had trouble finding their stuff on youtube. But yeah I also got some slight Slough Feg vibes, but much rougher.
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Jonpo
Hypercolombowler

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:38 am 
 

*Heart eyes emoji* sounds great guys! Looking forward to checking them out. I love newer bands that "get it".

I can't believe A Distant Thunder. I played it after work at home last night, and now I'm at work this morning playing it again. It's pretty much everything I hoped it would be. That all-important transition album that led to Nosferatu. In a lot of ways I like this one even more though. Remnants of War had to grow on me but this one was lightning in a bottle right from the start. Speaking of Remnants of War JESUS CHRIST what an album that one is! So fucking dark and muscular.

Helstar and Liege Lord neither one fucked with Rulers/Kings/Tyrants at ALL. I love all the songs about beheading them.
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Dungeon_Vic
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
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Location: Greece
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:41 pm 
 

Yeah, A Distant Thunder is the SHIT (I prefer Nosferatu but I prefer Nosferatu over most metal), those fiery riffs. Scorcher is exactly that guitar wise!

I'm seeing Riot (V) today in my town. Gonna be awesome, I know it!
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:02 pm 
 

Jophelerex you silly goon! I was so excited to see a review for Black Viper's demo! God I love that thing so much and it deserves far more attention.

...German speed metal though?! The entire demo is an unabashed love letter to Savage Grace (and a little Agent Steel)! Freedom's Reign actually SOUNDS like an unreleased song from Master of Disguise.
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Jophelerx
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Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:22 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:30 pm 
 

The entire thing sounds like it could have been unreleased material from Blind Guardian or Helloween minus the vocals, but I don't listen to Savage Grace as often as you do. I don't hear much Agent Steel though since they're speed metal of course it's somewhat similar. Whether the guys were inspired by Savage Grace or not, the riffs are 100% German speed metal.

I will relisten to Savage Grace and then the demo though, if the vocals are similar I'll edit the review to include that. It has been longer than I realized since I played SG.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:34 pm 
 

I'm talking about the riffs. I'm always talking about the riffs. They have those ultra-tight patterns that sound circular, exactly the way that Savage Grace and Agent Steel wrote them. They are obviously hugely inspired by USPM/US speed metal, with Savage Grace and Agent Steel being the chiefest among them. I don't think it's a coincidence that a few people have voted Agent Steel up on the Similar Artist tab, but no one has mentioned any German bands.

You're just wrong on this one bud, I'm sorry. Glad they've got a review up, I just wish it wasn't so misleading to potential new fans.
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:40 pm 
 

Well it's a difference of opinion there. Like I said, they could have been inspired by those bands and that's fine, but that doesn't mean the riffs don't sound like WoJ/BoF. I've listened to the latter very recently in the similarity is above 90% easily.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:41 pm 
 

It's not a difference of opinion man. You're wrong, I'm sorry. They sound infinitely more American than German, and they sound like Savage Grace specifically.

Here's a quote from an interview with the band:

We can tag you as Speed Metal, but the demo title hints at Kreator? Any other general influences?
Cato: Yeah we consider ourselves speed metal with hints of heavy metal. The title is not a nod to Kreator at all, we’re more influenced by bands like Savage Grace, Agent Steel, Iron Maiden and so on.

edit: Here's the link to the interview because they're a rad fucking band everyone in this thread should love: http://www.ironfistzine.com/2016/05/04/ ... ack-viper/
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:47 pm 
 

Who cares what they consider themselves? You'd need a thesis with a riff-by-riff comparison of which band they sound most like and how they sound more like X band then Y band for me to actually agree with you on this. There are plenty of bands who call themselves genres they're not, why should that be considered evidence? You and the band themselves and everyone else are both entitle to the opinion that my opinion is wrong, but since I never said they don't sound like American speed metal, I don't see any objectivity being involved here. It sounds like one thing to me, it sounds like one thing to you and them, why can't it sound like both things? Nothing you've said makes anything I said in the review even a little bit wrong.
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Jonpo
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Posts: 6800
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:49 pm 
 

I've made it very clear how you're wrong, and I'm sorry you can't admit it. We both agree they are speed metal, so I'm not sure why you've shifted the discussion. We were discussing whether their riffs (and songs) sound more German (as you based your ENTIRE review around) or if they sound more like American speed metal, specifically Savage Grace and Agent Steel.

I'm sorry that I challenged your opinion, but your opinion is incorrect. It happens sometimes! I understand you don't listen to enough Savage Grace or Agent Steel to hear how similar it is, but it's glaring and striking. It's disappointing that you can't admit to being wrong, but that's okay man. I just hate that the review is so misleading to potential new fans. If I read your review I wouldn't even bother to listen to them.
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:56 pm 
 

You've made it very clear how arrogant you are. Not mentioning Savage Grace and Agent Steel is not the same as saying they don't sound like them. Your enthusiasm that I'm objectively incorrect is amusing. Show me where I said "this was only influenced by German bands and could not possibly have been influenced by any kind of American bands." Then I would be objectively wrong. Are you saying it sounds absolutely nothing like German speed metal, then? Like so different that calling them similar would literally be a stylistic inaccuracy? Because I can list plenty of riffs side by side that would disprove that. I don't have any issue if you think it's a terrible review and a misleading review, but stating that it's fact that the review is misleading is just absurd. If you continue to state your opinions here as fact, go for it, I won't continue responding to them, but even if literally everyone else in the world thinks they sound more American than German, that doesn't make one word of my review wrong if they still sound even a little bit German, which obviously they do. I would appreciate if you concede that point, then we can merely squabble about how my opinion is terrible, which I'm perfectly fine accepting.
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Jonpo
Hypercolombowler

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:01 pm 
 

Jophelerx wrote:
but even if literally everyone else in the world thinks they sound more American than German, that doesn't make one word of my review wrong if they still sound even a little bit German, which obviously they do. I would appreciate if you concede that point, then we can merely squabble about how my opinion is terrible, which I'm perfectly fine accepting.


Your opinion isn't terrible, it's just misinformed from lack of exposure. You hear Blind Guardian, Helloween, and Running Wild, presumably because you don't have the frame of reference to hear Savage Grace and Agent Steel, who they sound SHOCKINGLY similar to in the riff department.

But you've clearly stated that no one can change your "opinion" so there it is. But for some reason I'm arrogant. I admit to being wrong all the time. Like literally every page of this thread has me admitting to being previously wrong about something. Helstar, for instance, on this page.
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:10 pm 
 

I mean, could I be wrong in the sense that American speed metal is closer to their sound than German is? Sure, that could be true, but the fact is I never stated otherwise. I dislike people touting opinions as facts, but it's obvious that either you're doing that or you didn't actually read my review, since I never said the things you seem to think I did. To say that hearing BG and Helloween in riffs makes me wrong is to say that the sound is 100% different from anything that BG or Helloween have ever written and no riff on the demo is even 0.000001% similar. Either way, you are the one who is blatantly stating factual inaccuracies. I'm fine admitting I'm wrong when I am, and I'm fine admitting maybe your description is better than mine, but that doesn't make mine objectively wrong in any way, shape, or form. Please happily write your own review brutalizing mine if you want, but now you're just blatantly lying saying that I've said factual inaccuracies. I'm fine with people trashing my taste all day long but you've gone way, way beyond that here. Give me one piece of evidence directly outlining a factual inaccuracy I've stated and I'll happily admit I'm wrong. But like I said, unless you're saying 0 ideas by Black Viper sound even 0.00000000001% like any idea from any of the German bands I reference, you are the one who is completely and utterly in the wrong when you say I'm factually wrong. If you can't understand that then you're not really trying to understand anything I'm saying.
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all music sounds pretty much the same, if it didn't, we wouldn't like it

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Jonpo
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:14 pm 
 

You are going to hurt yourself, reaching this hard. You centered your ENTIRE review (which is very short) around them sounding like german speed metal. It's in the title. It's strung throughout the entirety. I'm not twisting your words or putting opinions in your mouth. You said it sounds like some kind of lost demo from Germany, circa the late 80s. I'm telling you that is incorrect, and there are far more accurate comparisons, if you're looking to write that kind of thing in the first place.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to. I think you calling me arrogant is laugh-out-loud ironic, considering the length you've gone to make this an issue of your sacred and unchallengeable "opinion".

Jophelerx wrote:
Give me one piece of evidence directly outlining a factual inaccuracy I've stated and I'll happily admit I'm wrong. But like I said, unless you're saying 0 ideas by Black Viper sound even 0.00000000001% like any idea from any of the German bands I reference, you are the one who is completely and utterly in the wrong


This is pretty wild, man. Your entire review is about how much they sound like german speed metal. Anyone who reads it is going to come away with the idea that it sounds A LOT LIKE GERMAN SPEED METAL.
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:19 pm 
 

I thought you were an okay guy but you just keep on going with the personal attacks. I like to try to defend myself when people lie about me in public but I know you well enough to know you're not this dense, so clearly you're just being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. I'm going to turn you on ignore now because I don't like dealing with people who stubbornly and repeatedly lie about me for the sole purpose of calling their own opinions facts. Fuck you.
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all music sounds pretty much the same, if it didn't, we wouldn't like it

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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 7824
Location: York, North Yorkshire
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:21 pm 
 

Hey, fun boys! Get a room!
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:24 pm 
 

Wow! Hahaha, I would love to know where I personally attacked him. I did get called arrogant, and an asshole. Whoops! I was just trying to help him realize that his review sounds really silly if you've heard Black Viper AND Savage Grace.

If any of you guys who are also big Savage Grace fans want to hear a song, the similarity in sound is through the roof, check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCJktO0YSM
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Dungeon_Vic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:00 am
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Location: Greece
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:45 pm 
 

Black Viper does sound more like SG and AS but that's not so far removed from German speed metal anyway. I think you had the point Jonpo but you drove it in too hard man.

So, er, I just got back from RiotV and they fucking kicked ass. Excellent on every level. Performance, passion, charisma and a fantastic setlist. Unmissable.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:04 pm 
 

Hm. I've always thought they sounded drastically removed! Interesting. To me German speed metal riffs sound way more stiff. Not in a bad way, just a lot of Accept crunch I guess. Most of the American stuff that raises eyebrows has a really heavy D'ianno Maiden kind of acrobatic sound. Savage Grace specifically do this trademark thing where the riff repeats in a really tight pattern and sounds circular. Master of Disguise is littered with it, and Black Viper GLORIOUSLY cribbed that style.

I feel like opinions can be challenged. The title of the review is "German Speed Metal 101". The entire thing centers around them sounding German, and they don't. I wasn't trying to make this some big thing. I feel like I was mildly snarky at the worst? Saying someone is wrong isn't a personal attack. Its the beginning of a conversation, usually. I've personally deleted reviews that contained opinions I couldn't honestly stand by anymore. I mean sure it was easier because they also sucked... :lol:

Holy shit dude that was a quick turn around on seeing them live. I didn't realize it was that soon. I'm glad they ruled. I haven't had the nerve to listen to any Riot V material yet. I love regular old Riot.
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Dungeon_Vic
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Location: Greece
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:23 pm 
 

Eh, I guess you have to factor in the context of being told in front of everybody (I use the term loosely of course) that "you don't know what you are talking about man", right after posting a review. Music nerds (like most of us are I guess) are sensitive about being knowledgeable. This goes for most of us, not just Jophelerx.

Riot's set was greeeeat! Man, Warrior sounds so awesome live, it's a 1977 song and it's basically epic speed power. Glorious. They also did Outlaw, Heavy Metal Machine, Swords and Tequila, BLACK LEATHER AND GLITTERING STEEL (that's my favorite Riot song) and a ton of Thundersteel classics. Glorious I tell you. Todd was flawless and sang without any effort at all. Crowd got going just like *that*, they won everyone in the place and we're talking people who did not know them well or knew only a couple of albums.

Great gig.
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Dandelo
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 985
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:55 pm 
 

Black Leather and Glittering Steel is a great song. I like Dance of Death a little better.

Man, I love The Privilege of Power. Even Maryanne. I think I like the album more than Thundersteel.

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Oblarg
Veteran

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:59 pm
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Location: The second sea
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:52 pm 
 

Yeah, The Privilege of Power is fucking great. Underrated album.
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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:23 pm 
 

Yeah, most definitely. I alternate between the two for favorite Riot album. Best of from both albums would make an 11/10 album. I go apeshit over the Al DiMeola cover as well, it's A MA ZING. Such effortless groove and musicality on that one.
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