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Jonpo
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:58 pm 
 

Bandcamp is blocked at work. I'm sure a handful of their stuff is on youtube though. I just think they might be worth a blind leap, to be honest. It's tough though, a lot of new bands nail their aesthetic and then can't quite back it up. I just have a good feeling about these guys.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:00 pm 
 

Jonpo wrote:
Bandcamp is blocked at work. I'm sure a handful of their stuff is on youtube though. I just think they might be worth a blind leap, to be honest. It's tough though, a lot of new bands nail their aesthetic and then can't quite back it up. I just have a good feeling about these guys.


I can't picture you disliking it, though it appeals to me as a fan of later Slough Feg and 70s rock/prog as much as 80s obscure metal, so your liking it really depends on how much you like its weird disparate influences. The production and vocals are definitely suitably gritty and brash though.
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Nahsil
Clerical Sturmgeschütz

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:07 pm 
 

I had trouble finding their stuff on youtube. But yeah I also got some slight Slough Feg vibes, but much rougher.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:38 am 
 

*Heart eyes emoji* sounds great guys! Looking forward to checking them out. I love newer bands that "get it".

I can't believe A Distant Thunder. I played it after work at home last night, and now I'm at work this morning playing it again. It's pretty much everything I hoped it would be. That all-important transition album that led to Nosferatu. In a lot of ways I like this one even more though. Remnants of War had to grow on me but this one was lightning in a bottle right from the start. Speaking of Remnants of War JESUS CHRIST what an album that one is! So fucking dark and muscular.

Helstar and Liege Lord neither one fucked with Rulers/Kings/Tyrants at ALL. I love all the songs about beheading them.
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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:41 pm 
 

Yeah, A Distant Thunder is the SHIT (I prefer Nosferatu but I prefer Nosferatu over most metal), those fiery riffs. Scorcher is exactly that guitar wise!

I'm seeing Riot (V) today in my town. Gonna be awesome, I know it!
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:02 pm 
 

Jophelerex you silly goon! I was so excited to see a review for Black Viper's demo! God I love that thing so much and it deserves far more attention.

...German speed metal though?! The entire demo is an unabashed love letter to Savage Grace (and a little Agent Steel)! Freedom's Reign actually SOUNDS like an unreleased song from Master of Disguise.
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:30 pm 
 

The entire thing sounds like it could have been unreleased material from Blind Guardian or Helloween minus the vocals, but I don't listen to Savage Grace as often as you do. I don't hear much Agent Steel though since they're speed metal of course it's somewhat similar. Whether the guys were inspired by Savage Grace or not, the riffs are 100% German speed metal.

I will relisten to Savage Grace and then the demo though, if the vocals are similar I'll edit the review to include that. It has been longer than I realized since I played SG.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:34 pm 
 

I'm talking about the riffs. I'm always talking about the riffs. They have those ultra-tight patterns that sound circular, exactly the way that Savage Grace and Agent Steel wrote them. They are obviously hugely inspired by USPM/US speed metal, with Savage Grace and Agent Steel being the chiefest among them. I don't think it's a coincidence that a few people have voted Agent Steel up on the Similar Artist tab, but no one has mentioned any German bands.

You're just wrong on this one bud, I'm sorry. Glad they've got a review up, I just wish it wasn't so misleading to potential new fans.
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:40 pm 
 

Well it's a difference of opinion there. Like I said, they could have been inspired by those bands and that's fine, but that doesn't mean the riffs don't sound like WoJ/BoF. I've listened to the latter very recently in the similarity is above 90% easily.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:41 pm 
 

It's not a difference of opinion man. You're wrong, I'm sorry. They sound infinitely more American than German, and they sound like Savage Grace specifically.

Here's a quote from an interview with the band:

We can tag you as Speed Metal, but the demo title hints at Kreator? Any other general influences?
Cato: Yeah we consider ourselves speed metal with hints of heavy metal. The title is not a nod to Kreator at all, we’re more influenced by bands like Savage Grace, Agent Steel, Iron Maiden and so on.

edit: Here's the link to the interview because they're a rad fucking band everyone in this thread should love: http://www.ironfistzine.com/2016/05/04/ ... ack-viper/
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:47 pm 
 

Who cares what they consider themselves? You'd need a thesis with a riff-by-riff comparison of which band they sound most like and how they sound more like X band then Y band for me to actually agree with you on this. There are plenty of bands who call themselves genres they're not, why should that be considered evidence? You and the band themselves and everyone else are both entitle to the opinion that my opinion is wrong, but since I never said they don't sound like American speed metal, I don't see any objectivity being involved here. It sounds like one thing to me, it sounds like one thing to you and them, why can't it sound like both things? Nothing you've said makes anything I said in the review even a little bit wrong.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:49 pm 
 

I've made it very clear how you're wrong, and I'm sorry you can't admit it. We both agree they are speed metal, so I'm not sure why you've shifted the discussion. We were discussing whether their riffs (and songs) sound more German (as you based your ENTIRE review around) or if they sound more like American speed metal, specifically Savage Grace and Agent Steel.

I'm sorry that I challenged your opinion, but your opinion is incorrect. It happens sometimes! I understand you don't listen to enough Savage Grace or Agent Steel to hear how similar it is, but it's glaring and striking. It's disappointing that you can't admit to being wrong, but that's okay man. I just hate that the review is so misleading to potential new fans. If I read your review I wouldn't even bother to listen to them.
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:56 pm 
 

You've made it very clear how arrogant you are. Not mentioning Savage Grace and Agent Steel is not the same as saying they don't sound like them. Your enthusiasm that I'm objectively incorrect is amusing. Show me where I said "this was only influenced by German bands and could not possibly have been influenced by any kind of American bands." Then I would be objectively wrong. Are you saying it sounds absolutely nothing like German speed metal, then? Like so different that calling them similar would literally be a stylistic inaccuracy? Because I can list plenty of riffs side by side that would disprove that. I don't have any issue if you think it's a terrible review and a misleading review, but stating that it's fact that the review is misleading is just absurd. If you continue to state your opinions here as fact, go for it, I won't continue responding to them, but even if literally everyone else in the world thinks they sound more American than German, that doesn't make one word of my review wrong if they still sound even a little bit German, which obviously they do. I would appreciate if you concede that point, then we can merely squabble about how my opinion is terrible, which I'm perfectly fine accepting.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:01 pm 
 

Jophelerx wrote:
but even if literally everyone else in the world thinks they sound more American than German, that doesn't make one word of my review wrong if they still sound even a little bit German, which obviously they do. I would appreciate if you concede that point, then we can merely squabble about how my opinion is terrible, which I'm perfectly fine accepting.


Your opinion isn't terrible, it's just misinformed from lack of exposure. You hear Blind Guardian, Helloween, and Running Wild, presumably because you don't have the frame of reference to hear Savage Grace and Agent Steel, who they sound SHOCKINGLY similar to in the riff department.

But you've clearly stated that no one can change your "opinion" so there it is. But for some reason I'm arrogant. I admit to being wrong all the time. Like literally every page of this thread has me admitting to being previously wrong about something. Helstar, for instance, on this page.
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:10 pm 
 

I mean, could I be wrong in the sense that American speed metal is closer to their sound than German is? Sure, that could be true, but the fact is I never stated otherwise. I dislike people touting opinions as facts, but it's obvious that either you're doing that or you didn't actually read my review, since I never said the things you seem to think I did. To say that hearing BG and Helloween in riffs makes me wrong is to say that the sound is 100% different from anything that BG or Helloween have ever written and no riff on the demo is even 0.000001% similar. Either way, you are the one who is blatantly stating factual inaccuracies. I'm fine admitting I'm wrong when I am, and I'm fine admitting maybe your description is better than mine, but that doesn't make mine objectively wrong in any way, shape, or form. Please happily write your own review brutalizing mine if you want, but now you're just blatantly lying saying that I've said factual inaccuracies. I'm fine with people trashing my taste all day long but you've gone way, way beyond that here. Give me one piece of evidence directly outlining a factual inaccuracy I've stated and I'll happily admit I'm wrong. But like I said, unless you're saying 0 ideas by Black Viper sound even 0.00000000001% like any idea from any of the German bands I reference, you are the one who is completely and utterly in the wrong when you say I'm factually wrong. If you can't understand that then you're not really trying to understand anything I'm saying.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:14 pm 
 

You are going to hurt yourself, reaching this hard. You centered your ENTIRE review (which is very short) around them sounding like german speed metal. It's in the title. It's strung throughout the entirety. I'm not twisting your words or putting opinions in your mouth. You said it sounds like some kind of lost demo from Germany, circa the late 80s. I'm telling you that is incorrect, and there are far more accurate comparisons, if you're looking to write that kind of thing in the first place.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to. I think you calling me arrogant is laugh-out-loud ironic, considering the length you've gone to make this an issue of your sacred and unchallengeable "opinion".

Jophelerx wrote:
Give me one piece of evidence directly outlining a factual inaccuracy I've stated and I'll happily admit I'm wrong. But like I said, unless you're saying 0 ideas by Black Viper sound even 0.00000000001% like any idea from any of the German bands I reference, you are the one who is completely and utterly in the wrong


This is pretty wild, man. Your entire review is about how much they sound like german speed metal. Anyone who reads it is going to come away with the idea that it sounds A LOT LIKE GERMAN SPEED METAL.
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:19 pm 
 

I thought you were an okay guy but you just keep on going with the personal attacks. I like to try to defend myself when people lie about me in public but I know you well enough to know you're not this dense, so clearly you're just being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. I'm going to turn you on ignore now because I don't like dealing with people who stubbornly and repeatedly lie about me for the sole purpose of calling their own opinions facts. Fuck you.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:21 pm 
 

Hey, fun boys! Get a room!
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:24 pm 
 

Wow! Hahaha, I would love to know where I personally attacked him. I did get called arrogant, and an asshole. Whoops! I was just trying to help him realize that his review sounds really silly if you've heard Black Viper AND Savage Grace.

If any of you guys who are also big Savage Grace fans want to hear a song, the similarity in sound is through the roof, check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCJktO0YSM
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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:45 pm 
 

Black Viper does sound more like SG and AS but that's not so far removed from German speed metal anyway. I think you had the point Jonpo but you drove it in too hard man.

So, er, I just got back from RiotV and they fucking kicked ass. Excellent on every level. Performance, passion, charisma and a fantastic setlist. Unmissable.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:04 pm 
 

Hm. I've always thought they sounded drastically removed! Interesting. To me German speed metal riffs sound way more stiff. Not in a bad way, just a lot of Accept crunch I guess. Most of the American stuff that raises eyebrows has a really heavy D'ianno Maiden kind of acrobatic sound. Savage Grace specifically do this trademark thing where the riff repeats in a really tight pattern and sounds circular. Master of Disguise is littered with it, and Black Viper GLORIOUSLY cribbed that style.

I feel like opinions can be challenged. The title of the review is "German Speed Metal 101". The entire thing centers around them sounding German, and they don't. I wasn't trying to make this some big thing. I feel like I was mildly snarky at the worst? Saying someone is wrong isn't a personal attack. Its the beginning of a conversation, usually. I've personally deleted reviews that contained opinions I couldn't honestly stand by anymore. I mean sure it was easier because they also sucked... :lol:

Holy shit dude that was a quick turn around on seeing them live. I didn't realize it was that soon. I'm glad they ruled. I haven't had the nerve to listen to any Riot V material yet. I love regular old Riot.
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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:23 pm 
 

Eh, I guess you have to factor in the context of being told in front of everybody (I use the term loosely of course) that "you don't know what you are talking about man", right after posting a review. Music nerds (like most of us are I guess) are sensitive about being knowledgeable. This goes for most of us, not just Jophelerx.

Riot's set was greeeeat! Man, Warrior sounds so awesome live, it's a 1977 song and it's basically epic speed power. Glorious. They also did Outlaw, Heavy Metal Machine, Swords and Tequila, BLACK LEATHER AND GLITTERING STEEL (that's my favorite Riot song) and a ton of Thundersteel classics. Glorious I tell you. Todd was flawless and sang without any effort at all. Crowd got going just like *that*, they won everyone in the place and we're talking people who did not know them well or knew only a couple of albums.

Great gig.
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Dandelo
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:55 pm 
 

Black Leather and Glittering Steel is a great song. I like Dance of Death a little better.

Man, I love The Privilege of Power. Even Maryanne. I think I like the album more than Thundersteel.

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Oblarg
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:52 pm 
 

Yeah, The Privilege of Power is fucking great. Underrated album.
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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:23 pm 
 

Yeah, most definitely. I alternate between the two for favorite Riot album. Best of from both albums would make an 11/10 album. I go apeshit over the Al DiMeola cover as well, it's A MA ZING. Such effortless groove and musicality on that one.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:27 pm 
 

Man, I've never heard Privilege of Power. I've always thought it sounded KILLER in theory, no idea why I've drug my feet. The idea of Powersteel + some horns sounds great to me! Will try to hunt down a cheapish copy.

I'm at work jamming Envoy of Death by Sarcofagus. Any of you guys into this one? It would be a strong recommendation for anyone who is obsessed with 70s heavy metal. This sounds a lot like '79 Manilla Road, Legend, the other Legend, that kind of deal. The riffing power is strong but the production is 70s as fuck with those beautiful looped out solos flying everywhere. These guys have a reputation as the "first heavy metal band from Finland" and more people have heard their debut which is HALF amazing and half pure garbage. Envoy of Death is where they focused up and codified their sound.

Insane Rebels is a heavy metal theme song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJuGFWA5mUs
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:46 pm 
 

You know what, I think every time I've ever heard anyone talk about them, I always assumed they were talking about Sarcofago.
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colin040
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:01 pm 
 

It's like people mention Virgin Sails to me - I always read Virgin Steele at first instead.

I'll soon give BG"s A Night at the Opera a chance - been sampling some songs of it lately and while I'm sure it would be the most challenging album to digest the sampled material sounds pretty cool.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:16 pm 
 

Sacrofagus is pretty awesome, yeah - loving those heavy, thumping, groovy riffs. I'll check out the whole thing.

I think ANATO is BG's worst album most likely. Just too overblown and exhausting - it's a relic from that early 00s time when metal was just blowing up again and every band thought they had to craft the next big epic album all the time. Kamelot's Epica and Black Halo were much more my speed for that. But I'm glad we got away from that as a whole, really.
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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:23 pm 
 

I liked ANATO fine enough, but the production is just unbearable. You can't hear anything.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:58 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
You know what, I think every time I've ever heard anyone talk about them, I always assumed they were talking about Sarcofago.


:lol:

No idea if you'd dig it or not, to be honest. I could hear some magic in their debut but then for the B-side they let some OTHER band member bring his songs to the table and they were garbage hard rock tunes. I think they either scrapped him completely or told him to keep his shitty songs to himself, because Envoy of Death is a stone cold killer. The last song might get a little too uh...out there for some of this crowd. It regresses into a lot of noise and random nonsense.

And there's never a bad time to discuss Sarcofago, assuming it's about INRI! What a fucking flawless masterpiece.
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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:58 pm 
 

I've never found ANATO to be exhausting at all, but I can definitely understand where people are coming from there, it's definitely huge and constantly busy as hell, I just happen to find that endearing and interesting. I'd definitely prefer they lean towards that direction than the seemingly reactionary one they took on A Twist in the Myth (I do like that album, but I think a lot of that is more nostalgia than anything else, since it's the first BG album I heard.) I haven't heard anything remotely like it, really, but it's just so vast and majestic and one of the things I love about it is that there's always something new to find, even on the 100 or 200th listen (I've probably passed both of those). "And Then There Was Silence" is definitely my favorite song they've ever done, and "Punishment Divine" isn't too far behind it. I do slightly prefer Kamelot's Epica/The Black Halo, but I mean, this is all 90+ material for me, so it's more just whichever one I feel like listening to in a given mood. I'd put it about on part with IFTOS as my favorite album of theirs. I've just never heard an album with that insane scope, I'm sure that album must have been expensive and annoying as hell to produce, and certainly it lacks something live, but I wouldn't change a thing on it (well, maybe "The Maiden and the Minstrel Knight"). I also think it has one of Hansi's best vocal performances, particularly in the cleaner style he's adopted later on. I think it's one of those albums where it would fall apart if even one small element of it was different, but the way it's structured, whether intentional or not, everything just kind of falls into place and creates the perfect storm.
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kytokinesis
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Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:42 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:34 pm 
 

Been busy with finals so haven't been able to take part in these conversations as much as I would have liked to. About the Black Viper demo, it sounds like they cribbed a lot from both the German and US scenes. Most of it's melodic ideas don't sound very European, but there ARE several parts that remind of the Blind Guardian and Angel Dust debuts. Even hear some Endless Pain machine gunning and sloppy-technical fills in there. Actually, they claim to not be inspired by Kreator but it seems they are either fucking liars or the guitarist just naturally has a similar style.

So it does sound a little German. Some German riffing structures and songwriting ideas but without the German sense of melody, replaced with more American sounding note and chord progressions. So to me it sounds like a hybrid of the two. I wouldn't quite call it German Speed 101 as it lacks a lot of that core cultural folky European melodic writing.

To be honest, Savage Grace has always sounded the most similar of the US bands to the German sound to my ears. I'm sure a lot of the German bands must have heard Master of Disguise while they were working on their first material. Parts like the way the intro riff and main twin guitar refrain are written in this song, I feel like I've probably heard something similar by an early German power metal band.

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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:45 pm 
 

kytokinesis wrote:
So it does sound a little German. Some German riffing structures and songwriting ideas but without the German sense of melody, replaced with more American sounding note and chord progressions. So to me it sounds like a hybrid of the two. I wouldn't quite call it German Speed 101 as it lacks a lot of that core cultural folky European melodic writing.


Well you've got my interest with the part I've bolded above! Could you hit me with a few examples of German bands you were thinking of that have "folky European" melodicism in their writing? That sounds amazing! I've never checked Angel Dust, is that their deal?
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:19 am 
 

I think he means the sing-song type of chorus melody that practically every European band uses. Pick any Helloween song.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:00 am 
 

Oh. Okay. God damn it I thought he meant in the riffing. That sounded rad!
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Dungeon_Vic
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:07 pm 
 

Re: Black Viper, I just looked back in my timeline when Nir from Speedrush and Nightbreed (trust me, the man is well versed in speed metal, from both sides of the ocean) posted them to me. He wrote: "like a mix of helloween ep+walls along with savage grace", so I guess other people hear the german speed as well.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:13 pm 
 

Well there you go! I don't hear it at all but I appreciate that input. The Helloween EP is one of the greatest things ever recorded! It's so compact and wild. One of the worst intros of all time though, along with Manowar's Warlord :lol:

I obviously still believe that an entire review centering around them being "German Speed Metal 101" is way off base, but I guess if you don't listen to Savage Grace you're just not going to realize how similar it is. I'm mostly thankful someone finally realized that Savage Grace and Agent Steel (first album anyways) were pumping out a unique sound that DESERVES to have it's torch carried.
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BeholdtheNicktopus
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Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:26 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:52 pm 
 

After realizing my favorite two bands, Manilla Road and Virgin Steele, were both of the US heavy/power metal persuasion, I went seeking more, and I wound up, over the last few days, reading about the latest 100 pages of this thread. I just wanted to say thanks to all for the recommendations and for discussing in a public forum. I found some amazing bands: Omen, Skullview, Dark Quarterer, Wrathblade, Quicksand Dream, and more.

I don't think I need to ask for any recs, since I've heard so much in such a short time already. But I did want to say that new Chevalier EP "A Call to Arms" is amazing and raw heavy/speed metal with a great medieval vibe! https://chevalier.bandcamp.com/releases
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Element_man
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:15 pm 
 

Jonpo wrote:
Man, I've never heard Privilege of Power. I've always thought it sounded KILLER in theory, no idea why I've drug my feet. The idea of Powersteel + some horns sounds great to me! Will try to hunt down a cheapish copy.
It rules. I'm with some of the posters above--it might be better than Thundersteel. There are some interludes and intros/outros that might throw you off but when taken as a whole it's a incredible work and has some of their coolest songs. It really should have made them a huge band.

That being said, the first three albums are generally my go-to with Riot. And all that being said, I haven't heard a Riot album that wasn't good.
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