Maybe people can, you know, separate a man's work and his personal beliefs? Glorifying his realizations as a musician doesn't imply accepting his religious views for oneself or losing respect for his musical output because of those views.

My comment was directed at those with the attitude of "christians have no place in metal". So metal is limited to who can be involved with it? There are rules onbe must follow to be "in" metal? To me that sounds about as closed minded and idiotic than any religion. The hypocrisy within the metal scene in hilarious and laughable. No wonder alot of people cant take it seriously.

Ok, you won't get any arguments from me there. Personal beliefs should have no incidence on someone being an acceptable metalhead except in extreme cases.

I agree. Back when I got into metal you were accepted no matter who you were or what your background was. Those who think a person of a specific religion isn't "welcome" to be in the metal scene are poser themselves. I don't care if you are white, black, christian, catholic, satanist, buddist or whatever. If you enjoy metal then more power to you.

I'm not going to look back over the entire thread, but I don't think hardly anyone was declaring that Christians aren't allowed in the metal scene so much as that Christianity was categorically denied a rightful place in black metal due to its ideological underpinnings. That said, I agree with you, it's pretty much come one, come all in my view... though it is pretty clear that if you try to insert an ideology into a musical culture that is historically aligned against that ideology, you're going to be dealing with some issues, and most people aren't going to be taking you seriously anytime soon.

Yes, I was wondering when the Enlightenment Brigade was going to show up, brandishing its totems and reading from its scrolls. Of all the posters in this thread, you whelps are easily the ones who are being most purely emotional and baldly assertive. The notion that metal can't be taken as being 'against' things is the pinnacle of absurdity, and your dismissal of your peers as "stupefyingly stupid" underscores this. One can (and people have) argue along the lines that religion and spirituality cannot or should not be taken as a viable filter, and the same is true of many other things (gender, sexual preference, political bent, etc.), but don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.

I don't know where you read that Christians have no place in metal (I don't feel like scrolling through four pages for this post by someone). I only stated that Christians have no place in BLACK metal. I'm not going to explain why for the 5th time. Christians are accepted among other genres I guess.

This discussion is a matter of "shoulds", not a matter of "cans." Hiding behind a statement of physical accident in no way supports (or hinders) the point that you wish to make, and your evaluative treatment of those who do not accept this point indicates that you are susceptible to the same patterns of behavior as they.

I doubt the majority feel that way, but there are those who have stated on this very forum that there is no place in metal for christians. I just don't get it. I'm not a christian, but I will defend a christians right to enjoy and perform in a metal band. If people disagree with it then they can simply ignore the christian related metal bands. As for black metal, christians can be full of hatred and write lyrics that reflect their hatred for whatever topics piss them off. I'm just of the opinion that the ones with the "no christians allowed in metal" attitude are childish and want so bad to be a part of something.

Yeah, I mean the main point is to make some kick-ass metal. Whatever your ideology is, go right ahead... the people who are into what you do will enjoy it, those who aren't will decry it. This unblack metal situation is a slightly more complicated case just because of the ideological conflict particular to the genre. Christians can make whatever kind of metal they want, as far as I'm concerned, but it doesn't surprise me that people are taking exception to it in this case.

I do think it's kind of funny how seriously people are taking this. A few Christian artists trying to get in on the black metal scene doesn't really change anything, and for a genre spawned under an ideology of rebellion and blasphemy, you'd think black metal could withstand a little subversion. Satan's doing just fine, people. And besides, isn't the Prince of Lies supposed to fuck with you once in a while?

As for me, there is no irony to what I am saying. The very point I have been making is that metal, as a countercultural entity, is naturally predisposed towards opposition to some things

...don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.

Who are you to say what strangers on a forum believe or don't believe? Come on now. If they're directly contradicting themselves, that's one thing...

Who are you to say what strangers on a forum believe or don't believe? Come on now. If they're directly contradicting themselves, that's one thing...

One can (and people have) argue along the lines that religion and spirituality cannot or should not be taken as a viable filter, and the same is true of many other things (gender, sexual preference, political bent, etc.), but don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.

Who are you to say what strangers on a forum believe or don't believe? Come on now. If they're directly contradicting themselves, that's one thing...

Thank you for telling me what I believe and don't believe.

Thank you for telling me what I believe and don't believe.

Yeah NightmareLake, keep the ad hominems coming, they greatly demonstrate how everyone but you is an idiot.

There is a clear contradiction in saying "everyone has a place in metal, but people who disagree with that don't have a place in metal!"

The music surely is very important, but it's not JUST about the music. There are no 'rules' here. If you are a Christian and you want to persuade making black metal? Fine, go ahead. I won't understand why and you will never gain my support and I'm pretty sure that 99% of the black metal scene will laugh at you and kick you in the balls after that.

This discussion is a matter of "shoulds", not a matter of "cans."

I don't know where you read that Christians have no place in metal (I don't feel like scrolling through four pages for this post by someone). I only stated that Christians have no place in BLACK metal. I'm not going to explain why for the 5th time. Christians are accepted among other genres I guess.

Black is the night, metal we fight
Power amps set to explode
Energy screams, magic and dreams
Satan records their first note.
We chime the bell, chaos and hell
Metal for maniacs pure.
Fast melting steel, fortune on wheels
Brain hemmorage is the cure

Freaking so wild, nobody's mild
Giving it all that you've got.
Wild is so right, metal tonight
Faster than over the top.
Open the core enter hells door
Black is the code for tonight
Atomic force, feel no remorse
Crank up the amps now it's night

That is indeed just what I'm getting at. Consider the proposition that all outlooks on metal and what it can/cannot/should/should not be are equally beautiful, appropriate, sensible, valid, or whatever term of approval one might prefer. This proposition has been used by some here (though not necessarily everyone who disagrees with the notion that Christianity has no place in black metal), coupled with the statement or implication that those that do no accept it (the proposition) are "stupid", or "idiots", or "living in a fantasy world", or a "source of hilarity." These judgements--whether they can be reasonably argued to be correct or incorrect is largely irrelevant--indicate that those making them feel that at least one kind of mindset (e.g. that some types of metal/philosophical combinations are questionable) is foolish, groundless, and in an ideal world (which this is not, as many statements of fact could exemplify), would not be present amongst the metal fandom, which, in broad form, is analogous to the exception that some people take against the presence of Christianity within black metal (to name but one example).

The reason that I take exception to this is not even so much the dissonance in the proposition itself as the fact that the way it was introduced--and the way it has historically tended to be introduced by those that hold it--set this thread on a downhill course. As you may or may not know, this is a rather common topic of discussion here (I would estimate that it occurs roughly twice a month, sometimes less, sometimes more), and typically ends very badly. For whatever reason--perhaps just coincidence, perhaps as a result of your personal attempts to marshall it a bit better, or any number of other things--this thread, at 4/5 pages now, is doing quite a bit better than its predecessors have tended. As such, I feel that the presence here of things like 'idiocy' or 'hypocrisy' has been asserted more than it has been demonstrated, and sought to either preclude these things from dragging the thread too far into a flamewar, or at least prolong its productivity a bit more by subjecting a popular view to some closer examination. Perhaps this view really could argued to have a great degree of merit, but again, thus far it has been clumsily and aggressively asserted more than it has been demonstrated.

Metal to me has no rules. Sheep mentality has no place in metal.

Under_Starmere, is the contradiction glaring enough for you now?

Under_Starmere, is the contradiction glaring enough for you now?

Also, people really need to get over the fact that metal is rebellious. I mean it is, but it's not so rebellious that it also has to rebel against itself;

Yeah, I'm going to record ragtime for the piano and call it metal. Metal has no rules, so you can't say it isn't metal, right?