i have always been athiest i just dont like religious zealots forcing me to listen to what they belive ,religious people can do whatever they want as long as they stay away from me and since i dont like mind controlling cults and love metal i dont really want to see them together

And for me.

Your not looking or listening then. Granted, many black metal bands don't sound "dark", but try something like Teitanblood or Arkhon Infaustus and see what you see.

Black metal isn't meant to be dark as much as black. Devoid of colour, not simply shadowy. At least, when done correctly.

And seriously, WHY does everything "shit" have to be connected to mall's? I mean, I'm actually responding to a statement that doesn't make sense really.

I'm a hardcore christian, but I listen to openly anti-christian and satanic black metal about hating jesus and killing christians. I don't see any hypocrisy in my actions because I listen to the music, not the lyrical themes.

You wouldn't know, Antarctica doesn't have any malls

Becoz mall is unkult, yo.

To add something serious before I get bashed...I don't know, I don't mind Christian Metal if it is created for some other purpose than proselytizing...after that, it is the music. Even then, I probably be fucking dense if I were to refuse any good music just because of minor details, right?

I know I bashed Christian Metal in my earlier posts...but, I guess I'm just expressing my wariness of the whole thing...true, it makes me put up a non-amiable reception to it, but...I don't know! I try to be accepting, I guess.

Thats awesome!!

And that's exactly where they started backpedalling and contradicting themselves. It's still an oxymoron.

You know, most people don't live metal's ideology and some actually do everything they can to deny it (like yourself). This is the real difference between true metalheads and poser metal fans. Remember that posers outnumber metalheads by at least a thousand to one, and that's INSIDE the so-called metal scene, and of course not a single one will ever admit they're not true.

That's because the ideology is not for you. The whole thinking process, social objective or manifesto is not for you.

Tormentor, the fact that you throw around the words "True" and "Poser" as much as you do is a sure sign that you yourself are a poser.

It depends on the band. If they do it subtly, I don't mind. If I wanted to hear a sermon, I'd go to church. For example, I like King's X, though I'm not sure if they're what most people would call "metal".

Black Sabbath as an anti-Christain band doesn't work. The aesthetics and atmospheres and narratives are destroyed. They aren't Venom or Deicide; they're a band that describes the fear and despair of the common, weak Christian man when he is faced with Satan.

By bashing early Black Sabbath you have proven yourself false already. True metalheads honor and respect those records, and you're a poseur for trying to devalue them.

Ever heard a rant by Paul Baloff or Joey Demaio? No matter which you prefer, according to them there's always a few poseurs in the crowd ruining it for the legions of true metalheads, not the other way around. And the fact that you can't handle Black Sabbath, because they are too true and too metal and too heavy for you to take, proves that you're an enemy of metal.

Please stick with talking about Rage Against the Machine lyrics like you were doing earlier. At least you seemed to understand them, and it seems like a better fitting band to your persona.

hahah, what a put-down.

I'm a bit late to this party and I don't really think I have much to contribute. I prefer the edgy, panic-ridden "maybe we're all goign to hell after all?" pro-christian approach of some doom metal bands to the over-the-top, crusade-for-the-lord stuff by Whitecross and the like. I'm also not convinced that christianity has much of a place in the more overtly extreme metal genres. It seems a bit like using a piece of artillery to clear the ground for your new garden. Rarely do I find an instance in which I don't feel that the audience is being pandered to in some way.

what i mean is that metal has always been the counter culture. even black sabbath, if any metal band was to be associated with marijuana, itd be black sabbath.

Well I was going to write up a clever response to Tormentor, but you did it better than I could. I'd just like to add one thing, which is:

How exactly was Black Sabbath contradicting their past works when they wrote After Forever? I don't recall them ever really saying anything anti-Christian in their songs. Sure, they mentioned Satan a couple times, but what does that prove? I just mentioned Satan, and I'm still a Christian.

Does anyone notice that there are two Tormentors?



and



Let's not mix these two poor kids together.

Wow, I didn't even notice that. Two guys with very similar names making the same argument in the same thread? Jeez.

Well now I feel dumb. I made that post to make you guys see how stupid that kind of thinking is and you guys just accepted it at face value... A christian listening to anti-christian music... NOT A HYPOCRISY???!!!

Metal is doomed.

I am strongly against Christian themes in any music, really, I don't listen to much music that's purely about Satan, but I DO listen to a lot of highly Anti-Christian bands, or Anti-Religion period. I just don't think singing about faith has any place in music, at all. Not only that, but I've yet to hear a decent Christian metal band. Most of them are -Core crap. Ideology I'm stongly against in music hugely affects my enjoyment of it, it doesn't matter if the music itself is strong, if the lyrics are something I'm strongly against, I won't listen to it.

Well, to be fair, if you're anti-Christian then you need to hit "skip" the next time "After Forever" comes on. That song is very anti-anti-Christian.

No prob, I don't listen to Black Sabbath. Too christian.

Brujeria has anti-white songs. Does that mean I can't listen to them because I'm white?

To be fair, Voice's point is COMPLETELY valid, your beliefs must not be very strong if you can ignore blantant slanders against them, I sure know I can't. Apparently hypocrisy is rampant on these boards =P

Or we can separate music and message? And I'd say the reverse is true: if you can't handle some criticism, maybe you aren't as dedicated to your cause or belief as you think you are.

Nah, Brujeria is a well known joke band with white members.

The message is part of the music, I don't think the two should be seperated, or shouldn't need to be. The artist obviously felt the need to place the message in there, they obviously don't want people ignoring it.

Also, I'm Agnostic, I don't have much of a set of religious beliefs.

It sounds like you are a fucken FAG. Stop listening to BM. You're a fucken joke.

I will never respect christians/christianity enough to store their material anywhere in my ipod or life for that matter. I've heard Antestor and they have some pretty tight structures and such but I deleted them after realizing they were on the "christian cause" bandwagon. I disagree so strongly with everything that doctrine represents that no form of art or philosophy (Kierkegaard) can make it seem an even somewhat appreciable theme (even as BG music, whats the point?). I do recognize some christian musicians to be skillful but that doesn't change the fact that they are suckers to one of the biggest jokes in human history.

This also goes for any kind of belief system that requires willful ignorance. And though I'm a big fan of metal with a blasphemous/primal nature, I find "let the black cum spill forth" and "fistfucking gods planet" type lyrics to be boring.

To BlackVision: You make yourself look intelligent by making sweeping proclamations without explaining. So, funkenstein isn't big on either extreme end of the spectrum, does that disqualify him from being keen on BM? (the last sentence of the OP was dumb, though)

It sounds like you are an illiterate cretin. Stop listening to metal, period. Better yet, stop living. It is people like you, who drag down the collective IQ of those of us that legitimately love this kind of music. The outside world sees people like you and automatically associates everyone else with your outlandish behavior.

Good. I'd rather people think of us like that than think of us as open minded, friendly, non-threatening people who are more than willing to accomodate christians in our midsts. That's much more insulting, though sadly 10,000 times closer to the truth.

It is more fun, I agree. Just creates too many ideological issues when we compare this to actual metal history; the findings would say that only fundamentalists, evangelicals, etc. have really been excluded by the general metal mass, smaller movements aside. I'm very conservative with honoring metal history, as I believe it is an important part of metal.

I said this once before and I will say it again, though: there is inherent false metal in Christianity that condemns fellow brothers to hell. Unacceptable, and it shows that you're putting faith before brotherhood. If you can't make an exception and say that the power of metal can also lead to salvation, then that is really offensive.

Is there inherent false metal in very liberal forms of Christianity? I don't see it, nor do I really care. It doesn't apply to me anyway, so they can fight their own fight.

I think, though, that if you shun Black Sabbath for religious reasons (as you claimed you did, possibly jokingly), you're doing a disservice to metal.

Are you defending blackvisions retarded post? I'd certainly rather the modern conception of metal not be like that. I would agree that people need to be more assured and assertive of what they believe/ don't believe, and even more so decisive with what they listen to. But for the sake of our pride, let's not lash out with "fucken FAG" and whatnot. It seems very stupid and pointless. Not an "opinion" worth backing...

edit: I just noticed, you're a "hardcore" christian... now I feel cheap. Go listen to your grim black metal you bible-thumping dissident. It's "just music" anyways, right? Priceless.

Oh god, not this crap again. I remember when you said this, and I explained why it's stupid. Firstly, why the hell does there need to be total loyalty between metalheads? We just listen to similar music, that's it. Just because someone listens to metal doesn't mean that they're more deserving of good treatment from me.

Secondly, from the perspective of a Christian, faith over "brotherhood" is a logical choice. On one hand, you have fellow fans of a great form of music. On the other hand, you have an omnipotent being that is responsible for all things every created. As good as metal is, it's sort of dumb to not pick God, if you believe in him.

Of course, the whole choice is pointless because there really isn't some sort of super strong bond between all metalheads. Maybe there is some sort of bond, but I don't really consider some guy to be my brother just because he also likes (insert metal band here).

I dont want to listen to a metal band with christian lyrics, because those lyrics are totally completely uninteresting to me. Understand?
I want to listen to the music while reading the lyrics, and I want the lyrics to be awesome. I have nothing against religious metal bands, I just dont give a shit about them.

Ive heard both those bands. Ive heard most of the raved about bands out there in the underground actually. And Id give you "black", but not "dark". I was arguing "dark". Dont change the terms of the debate half way through.

You are clearly more concerned with the image and the "ideology" then you are with the music. That alone, makes you the poser.

Depends if they are serious, devoted, medieval style Catholic monks, who want to crush their enemies, burn women & break in boys, or if they are Protestants/some other Christian cult, which might even have priests that have vaginas or are allowed to marry, which is not grim enough.

Well, your first point is that you would choose the word "bond" over "brotherhood" which is just a semantic difference.

Your second point failed to address what I was saying. When I say that a Christian chooses metal over faith I mean that he/she ignores the typical faith when it contradicts with metal, thus implying he/she must be a sort of liberal Christian who believes in universal salvation. To not be puts tension on the brotherhood.

It's really irritating when people miss the point on every level. I see now that there is no point in making the attempt, since you already seem to be far too lost to understand, but I will try anyway. Metal heads are not outlandish tools like you are. At least, they shouldn't be. It's not about accommodating Christians, or not, and it's not about the outside world viewing us as friendly, or not. It's about the fact that both of you are clearly about image and not about the music at all. Because of this, you do not belong. It's not even that I necessarily care about what other people think, as much as I care about the fact that you are a poor representation of the scene as a whole.

Christian Metal is in my opinion pure shit. I bought an album by Believer in around 91/92 and have bought nothing since then.. I thought I would give this band a go as I had read a review in Xtreme Noize mag which was the mag for extreme metal before Terrorizer started up. I hate Christianity as I do all religion and am not interested in any of the lies that they preach - but that isn't the bottom line because apart from all the lame lyrics I have found the musical tallent and style to be just as poor. Mortification are a prime example - totally pointless band and totally pointless releases. Scrolls Of The Megiloth indeed - don't make me laugh...