So,I didn't put this in the "Why was x band rejected" thread,because this question is more general.
Hard rock bands like Scorpions,Deep Purple,Rush,Rainbow,Thin Lizzy,Budgie or Sir Lord Baltimore,or glam metal bands such as Motley Crue are featured on the archives,and its even mentioned that while some of them may not be metal,they are here because of their historical importance.
However,bands like AC/DC,Alice Cooper,Led Zeppelin,Whitesnake,Kiss,Van Halen,Uriah Heep,UFO,MSG or Blue Oyster Cult aren't here,some even being mentioned as the examples of what is not accepted.So,my question is,what makes the first bands more metal or historically important than the second ones?

Technique, maybe. See, Rush is way more complex than, say, AC/DC. Scorpions is heavier than Kiss (sure, not every song in every album, but there are many heavy songs in their career).


BTW, Rush never was and never will be hard rock.

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=1039

WHEN GUNS AND ROSES PLAY "WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE."

Sorry.I corrected the post now.

Even as a kid, I noticed a disctinct difference between the sounds of say, Judas Priest compared to the sounds of AC/DC.

Of course at this time I wasn't even aware of what heavy metal was, but it's something I did always notice but was never able to really pin down.

I think one of the above posters has it right on being "technique" though, I'd like to be able to quantify it specifically better honestly.

Still don't get the Alice Cooper thing. He has had several Metal albums and I would argue the band's '71 outputs were just as heavy as anyone else on the archives. Not to mention that you are only gonna find sick songs like "Dead Babies" from Metal bands at that point.

Example(s) being?

Well,I didn't compare AC/DC with Judas Priest,but with the more hard-rockish bands on this site,and IIRC,AC/DC is often cited as one of the biggest influences on NWOBHM,and Judas Priest made some hard rockish stuff in its early days.
Speaking of NWOBHM,how come Praying Mantis isnt in the Archives?
EDIT:

As far as I'm aware, first couple of Motley Crue's and Rainbow's albums are considered metal enough to warrant their inclusion here without considering their historical importance. Not sure about Deep Purple and Rush. Led Zeppelin was ruled out because of being too strongly influenced by folk rock IIRC. All other bands you mentioned are simply closer to regular hard (and glam, in the case of KISS) rock than regular heavy metal, save for Blue Oyster Cult which has been the subject of numerous debates here (once again, IIRC).

When it's that simple, stomp-driven, chugga-riddled southern groove rock called goregrind.

Or metal.

I didn't say it is entirely metal, but the OP said Rush is hard rock, when it's actually prog rock with a little metal (very little, indeed) here and there (One Little Victory, for example).

Their debut is pure hard rock, nothing else.

I honestly disagree, but oh well, I don't want to turn the topic to another direction.

The Buck Dharma solo from the live version of VOPS is easily one of the best solos Ive ever heard,and sounds pretty metal to me.
BTW,from that song is your sig?

Well i dont know if AC/DC needs a place on the metal archive. However i think led zepplin does because alot of people consider them the first metal bad. i dont but some people due. but i dont think metal today would be the same with out them

Led Zeppelin would not be the same without Willie Dixon, since their first album was essentially a Willie Dixon tribute.

My parents were hippies. I know Zep front and back. They are the embodiment of Rock.

Dark At Dawn - "The Alliance" (the opening track from their fourth, self-titled album).

I would certainly argue that Rush's debut is very much a hard rock album, in a very typical 70s mould...nothing prog about it, really, aad you could actually argue the same case for something like "Fly by Night". Rush always struck me as a hard rock band that happened to be able to play progressively and simply let those influences creep further and further into their music as they went on, only to strip things down into a poppier format by the early 80s.

Anyway, of course the lines are quite blurred, but I think metal-archives has a pretty good grasp on what makes something metal or otherwise. There are a few bands that I could argue about, saying that they clearly have some metal riffs (Amboi Dukes, Uriah Heep, Hawkwind, BOC), but it's never really been that significant or worth arguing about...hell, even Bloodrock wrote doom metal songs, and they're not here either, as they're primarily not a metal band and I wouldn't really debate ttat.

Still kind of surprised that Night Sun is here....but anything that gets people listening to their album is fine by me!

well I am hge led fan but I wouldn't add them to the archive
mainly because of the fact that a third of their content is acoustic and well they never really seen themselves as metal unlike say sabbath

I would add G'N'R and AC/DC

Isn't Zeppelin often mentioned as one of the first metal stuff,together with Puprle (which is another band considered to be more hard rock than metal) and Sabbath,though?

Fuck GNR.

AC/DC should be added though.



Sabbath is on another level.

Yeah...Sabbath is still close to hard rock,but is more metal than rock,unlike Puprle or Zeppelin...But some people classify even bands like Saxon,Motorhead or Dio as hard rock.

Sabbath = Metal
This statement is above discussion.
A lot of NWOBHM bands had hard rockish tendencies. This was the result of the movement being inspired in part by some of the late 70s hard rock acts (some of which like Budgie are borderline metal). So yes people may be lulled into believing that Saxon is hard rock.

Dio and Motorhead!! Arent Lemmy and Dio supposed to be gods, metal gods? Only they have the right to call their music anything but metal.
Lemmy usually refers to Motorhead as Rock n Roll on speed.

Deep purple made some full fledged metal songs like space truckin. Basically the entire machine head album is more metal than hard rock and even then they released space truckin on a single.

I never quite got that particular argument. While I can see the case for Purple or Scorpions being hard rock, Sabbath has always been the quintessential metal band to me. Anyone who makes the argument that Sabbath is hard rock please tell me what rock bands, especially in the early 70s, play stuff like this, this or this?

When it sounds heavy enough then it is metal. I dont think it neccessarily has to have the signature double bass all the time. Just if its crushing, then it can be called metal.

There's a lot of heavy material in AC/DC's Let There Be Rock, and it's probably their heaviest album. Heaviness alone doesn't make a band metal though, obviously.

[quote="potassium_cianide"]Technique, maybe. See, Rush is way more complex than, say, AC/DC. Scorpions is heavier than Kiss (sure, not every song in every album, but there are many heavy songs in their career).


BTW, Rush never was and never will be hard rock.[/quote]


I hate to rain on your parade but nun slaughter is a killer death metal band. Dont let the name decive you my friend

I want to ask something...why do they need to be on this site? Does that band magically reach metal status once they are listed?

Look at it this way, who needs to a exhaustive list of Led Zeppelin albums and reviews thereof? Who doesn't know them off of the back of their heads? Are they that underground or unknown that we need to archive them?

Given that, it to me seems like this is a status thing.

And, I somewhat subscribe to this a little. To be honest, I'd feel great if LZ was on MA. Still, who cares if MA lists Led Zeppelin or not? Few people talk/know about Robert Johnson, and the fact that if he wouldn't have existed, none of the music we fucking listen to today would exist, but I don't care...

They are the roots of "heavy metal" for me. That's all that matters, some site isn't going to take that away for me.

And finally, I love you MA But, I don't mind if you guys don't have Led Zeppelin just as I don't mind if you don't have Black Flag. In the end, music is bigger for me than a site.

There's plenty of bands that deserve to be on this site like Blue cheer and Led zeppelin. I think sometimes it's just opinion.

There's such thing as really heavy electronic music, and really heavy drone/noise music. This is a stupid thing to say.

I'd say that black sabbath didn't become metal until about the "master of reality" album when Tony was doing more layering of guitar tracks and not just one rhythm and one lead track.

led zeppelin and deep purple were both excellent bands but they were both nothing more than loud blues rock bands that changed and mutated their sound to become much more. DP had the keyboards and used some classical textures on their early albums but they were still hard rock.

Led Zeppelin is loud and heavy on black dog and maybe the wanton song, so on those songs the whole bassis of metal is the amount of guitars and the staccato riffing of the guitar parts.