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EpicSceptic
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:26 am
Posts: 503
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:26 am 
 

According to this Facebook statement by Season of Mist, King ov Hell has quit Abbath due to the lyrical direction the band's new album is taking.

It's pretty strange because I've never really heard of someone opining that Carl Jung was strongly aligned with Christian theology. I'm really wondering if there aren't more personal issues as well, but that's pure speculation based on Abbath's erratic behaviour.

Regardless, the Abbath camp seems to be almost comically in disarray again. I thought the debut was pretty strong and I'm still looking forward to the new album, but I can't help but feel a little worried that the front man's world seems to be crumbling around him.

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Ilwhyan
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 7785
Location: Lifeless shadows
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:41 am 
 

That is very strange indeed. He must be confident that he will find a better project elsewhere. Regarding what he's saying about maintaining artistic integrity, he certainly has come a long way from that dubious Gorgoroth era, then. Or perhaps it wasn't King's failing as much as it was Gaahl's, but still... Quite weird.
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true_death
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 1439
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:49 am 
 

It does seem very odd - I know King ov Hell has something of a reputation as one of the biggest egotistical douchebags in the entire black metal scene, even among his peers, but it does seem incredibly odd. By this logic, he should have refused to join Gorgoroth because the name comes from the work of J.R.R Tolkein who was Roman Catholic :lol:. I do also wonder if personal issues aren't involved...I remember hearing about that Inferno Festival fiasco that happened last year, and the band/label never released any statement on it to clarify what the fuck happened. Wonder if that's related in some way.
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BasqueStorm
Metal freak

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 4024
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:55 am 
 

EpicSceptic wrote:
According to this Facebook statement by Season of Mist, King ov Hell has quit Abbath due to the lyrical direction the band's new album is taking.
It's pretty strange because I've never really heard of someone opining that Carl Jung was strongly aligned with Christian theology. I'm really wondering if there aren't more personal issues as well, but that's pure speculation based on Abbath's erratic behaviour.
Regardless, the Abbath camp seems to be almost comically in disarray again. I thought the debut was pretty strong and I'm still looking forward to the new album, but I can't help but feel a little worried that the front man's world seems to be crumbling around him.

Let's see:

Quote:
Abbath bass player 'King' will no longer be part of the band, due to conflicting views on lyrical concepts of the upcoming album. The lyrics are inspired by Swiss psychiatrist, Carl Gustav Jung. King finds that Jung’s connection to Christian mysticism is incompatible with the image of the band.

King comments: “I wish the members of the actual band, label, and crew all the best for the upcoming shows and the new album. The music itself is nothing short of brilliant! However, I must maintain artistic integrity and respectfully step aside.”

Abbath will soon give an official statement about King's departure. No shows will be cancelled!

Carl Gustav Jung inspired lyrics for an Immortal (Abbath) album?!? :eek:

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EpicSceptic
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:26 am
Posts: 503
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:59 am 
 

BasqueStorm wrote:
Carl Gustav Jung inspired lyrics for an Immortal (Abbath) album?!? :eek:


Apparently for the new Abbath album.

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EpicSceptic
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:26 am
Posts: 503
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:01 am 
 

true_death wrote:
By this logic, he should have refused to join Gorgoroth because the name comes from the work of J.R.R Tolkein who was Roman Catholic :lol:


Hahaha yeah he must be living with lots of regrets then I guess.

true_death wrote:
I do also wonder if personal issues aren't involved...I remember hearing about that Inferno Festival fiasco that happened last year, and the band/label never released any statement on it to clarify what the fuck happened. Wonder if that's related in some way.


That's exactly what I was thinking about.

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BasqueStorm
Metal freak

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 4024
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:01 am 
 

EpicSceptic wrote:
Apparently for the new Abbath album.

Yeah, but I mean that the lyrics use to be similar for both bands, right?

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EpicSceptic
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:26 am
Posts: 503
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:22 am 
 

No, the Jung inspired lyrics are exclusively going to be on the new Abbath album, they've never done anything Jungian in Immortal that I'm aware of.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 7785
Location: Lifeless shadows
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:30 am 
 

Well, it does strike me as odd that they'd go from writing about immortalesque wintery war themes to Carl Jung.
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MRmehman
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:34 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Painted World of Ariamis
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:35 am 
 

Yeeeeeeeeeeeah, this reeks of fish.

It's pretty clear that King is sick of Abbath's substance issues and they've decided this is the best way to both push the new album and get King as far away from Abbath as possible.
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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 953
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:54 am 
 

I am by no means an expert about Jung, but I remember researching him (reading a few wikipedia articles...) a year or so ago. He does use mythology, unlike Freud who was purely secular, but I never felt that he was more strongly connected to Christianity than any other mythology. He discussed characters from Greek, Roman and Norse mythology in several places.

Also, wouldn't it be hilarious if King played bass on the new Immortal live performances? :D

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DecemberSoul
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:46 am
Posts: 725
Location: Switzerland
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:34 am 
 

EpicSceptic wrote:
true_death wrote:
By this logic, he should have refused to join Gorgoroth because the name comes from the work of J.R.R Tolkein who was Roman Catholic :lol:


Hahaha yeah he must be living with lots of regrets then I guess.


Such kinds of logic just aren't very smart. I mean, how does using social media sit with KOH's ideology then? Certainly not far-fetched that many religious people of various sorts are involved in there as well. And that's merely one out of a myriad examples.
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Sick6Six
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 1532
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:09 am 
 

Seems like either an excuse to leave for different reasons or he's just making something out of nothing... Nobody would have cared or probably even noticed this vague "connection" he's talking about. Either way, good for him for being able to walk away, I'm sure being in Abbath pays better than 100% of other black metal bands. P.S. please don't join Immortal.

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BrutalizerUtilizerOfTheShadows
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:59 am
Posts: 723
Location: In the Cold Winds of Nowhere
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:28 am 
 

That's got to be the lamest excuse I've ever hear for someone leaving a band. They always dance around what's really going on in these official "statements" to save face but there is definitely more to the story than we're getting. Even if Abbath's new lyrics coincide with Jung's philosophy, I seriously doubt he wrote anything that could be tied to christianity.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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Location: York, North Yorkshire
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:42 pm 
 

I mean, Judas Iscariot did all those Blake inspired songs and he was a Christian mystic, too. Seems flaky. Anyway, good riddance! This guy has never been anything of note - Abbath can find a better bassist and hopefully stay sober enough to perform live. I've never seen him but I missed his gig at Party San last year due to travel connections and apparently he was somewhat "worse for wear", shouting "I'm drunk - it's okay, it's happened before!". The first Abbath album was cool, so this should be interesting, too.

Where was King's integrity when it came to attempting to steal Infernus's band name from him, I wonder?
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 7785
Location: Lifeless shadows
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:10 pm 
 

Acrobat wrote:
Where was King's integrity when it came to attempting to steal Infernus's band name from him, I wonder?

Exactly. :wanker:
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Twisted_Psychology
Veteran

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 3961
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:56 pm 
 

This could've easily just been brushed off as "creative differences" but the specifics of this incident just make me wonder how many actual instances of "creative differences" departures are rooted in things this asinine...
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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 953
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:09 pm 
 

Acrobat wrote:
Anyway, good riddance! This guy has never been anything of note [...]


I don't know about that. Have you given his God Seed material a chance? Their only album got really good responses from many critics in Norway, and it's the only black metal album I've heard being brought up in conversation with music hipsters in Norway, who don't really listen to the genre. It's too bad they never followed up with a 2nd album.

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narsilianshard
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
Posts: 1881
Location: Louisville
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:15 pm 
 

I completely forgot about how incredible that God Seed album is. I like it better than anything else Gaahl and King have ever worked on.

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BasqueStorm
Metal freak

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 4024
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:55 am 
 

EpicSceptic wrote:
No, the Jung inspired lyrics are exclusively going to be on the new Abbath album, they've never done anything Jungian in Immortal that I'm aware of.

Try again. :P

Ilwhyan wrote:
Well, it does strike me as odd that they'd go from writing about immortalesque wintery war themes to Carl Jung.

THANKS.

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Unity
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:42 pm
Posts: 1394
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:49 am 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
I completely forgot about how incredible that God Seed album is. I like it better than anything else Gaahl and King have ever worked on.


And don't forget the Ov Hell album.
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InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1035
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:54 am 
 

raumr wrote:
I am by no means an expert about Jung, but I remember researching him (reading a few wikipedia articles...) a year or so ago. He does use mythology, unlike Freud who was purely secular, but I never felt that he was more strongly connected to Christianity than any other mythology. He discussed characters from Greek, Roman and Norse mythology in several places.


EpicSceptic wrote:
It's pretty strange because I've never really heard of someone opining that Carl Jung was strongly aligned with Christian theology. I'm really wondering if there aren't more personal issues as well, but that's pure speculation based on Abbath's erratic behaviour.


Carl Jung was heavily inspired by the gnostic thoughts in Christianity. While he was very careful never to flaunt his beliefs (because of the time and place where/when he lived) he continuously hits points in his text that relates heavily to gnosticism. He even wrote Septem Sermones ad Mortuos. This was revealed by Martin Buber and lead to Jung defending himself by trying to disconnect himself from gnsoticism. he did so badly and with false evidence (among other things claiming the writing of the text was a sin of his youth while in reality he penned it when he was 41 years old). And shortly after the debate he wrote to father Lachat that his psychology is to be regarded as "a continuation of the hermetic tradition".

Among many other things most evidence points to Jung being heavily influence by gnostic though despite wanting to ditance himself from it in the public eye.


Last edited by InnesI on Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 6512
Location: Kansas City
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:05 pm 
 

So, what's the deal with the lyrics? Are they pro-xtian or merely about this branch of esoteric xtian thought? It will be important to make this distinction in order to determine to what degree this explanation is a pretense.
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Space_alligator
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:43 am
Posts: 151
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:36 pm 
 

Didn't King quit Gorgoroth because being a teacher interfered with the satanic image?

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Morn Of Solace
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 am
Posts: 1229
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:52 am 
 

Actually he tried to steal the band name and lost the legal battle :lol:

This is just a lame, edgy excuse to leave a declining situation. The live shows i've seen are not good at all and the response to the Abbath solo album was lukewarm at best

I'm a huge fan of Abbath's guitar style and songwriting, i hope he realizes the situation and gets himself togheter ASAP

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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 697
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:36 pm 
 

Black metal musicians are such wimps these days. Lawsuit this, lyrical direction that.

In 1991 this would have been settled with battleaxes at dawn.

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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:14 pm 
 

MawBTS wrote:
Black metal musicians are such wimps these days. Lawsuit this, lyrical direction that.

In 1991 this would have been settled with battleaxes at dawn.



In 991.
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Razakel
Nekroprince

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:36 pm
Posts: 5418
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:23 pm 
 

It wouldn't surprise me if Abbath these days is kind of a jerk and difficult to work with but jesus fucking christ King has to be the biggest douchebag dumbass in the entire black metal scene. He's a fucking session bassist that meanders between established bands and then tries to either take them over or stir up needless drama. He should just stick to his shitty solo project and keep selling his image. Such a joke.

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 941
Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:15 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
He does use mythology, unlike Freud who was purely secular,


Purely secular? Like the Oedipus complex?

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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 953
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:32 pm 
 

Yes.

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 941
Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:19 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
Yes.


That was actually a rebuttal

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raumr
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 953
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:27 pm 
 

It was? Maybe you should just tell me why you think I'm wrong and be upfront about it instead of asking a rhetorical question.

A purely secular theory of the mind does not mean you cannot use characters and story arcs from mythologies to make your point. A purely secular theory of ethics could invoke the stories in the Bible, without being "religious" for that reason.
If you compare it to Jung's use of archetypes and mythology and how he relates it to the collective unconsciousness you will see how different these two approach the subject. Joseph Cambell wrote an essay or an article which explained it very clear, I'll post a link if I find it online.

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Tezcat
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:39 am
Posts: 414
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:34 am 
 

InnesI wrote:
raumr wrote:
I am by no means an expert about Jung, but I remember researching him (reading a few wikipedia articles...) a year or so ago. He does use mythology, unlike Freud who was purely secular, but I never felt that he was more strongly connected to Christianity than any other mythology. He discussed characters from Greek, Roman and Norse mythology in several places.


EpicSceptic wrote:
It's pretty strange because I've never really heard of someone opining that Carl Jung was strongly aligned with Christian theology. I'm really wondering if there aren't more personal issues as well, but that's pure speculation based on Abbath's erratic behaviour.


Carl Jung was heavily inspired by the gnostic thoughts in Christianity. While he was very careful never to flaunt his beliefs (because of the time and place where/when he lived) he continuously hits points in his text that relates heavily to gnosticism. He even wrote Septem Sermones ad Mortuos. This was revealed by Martin Buber and lead to Jung defending himself by trying to disconnect himself from gnsoticism. he did so badly and with false evidence (among other things claiming the writing of the text was a sin of his youth while in reality he penned it when he was 41 years old). And shortly after the debate he wrote to father Lachat that his psychology is to be regarded as "a continuation of the hermetic tradition".

Among many other things most evidence points to Jung being heavily influence by gnostic though despite wanting to ditance himself from it in the public eye.


So, this inspiration from gnostic thought could be the source / reason why he stated that an ideal archetype for the Ego would be Lucifer?
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Opus
Veteran

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
Posts: 2927
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:42 pm 
 

Black metal fans are such wimps these days. Gossip this, gossip that.

In 1991 they would have been listening to the music they liked.
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InnesI
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
Posts: 1035
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:24 pm 
 

Tezcat wrote:
So, this inspiration from gnostic thought could be the source / reason why he stated that an ideal archetype for the Ego would be Lucifer?


Where did he say Lucifer was an ideal type for the ego? I think I've read somewhere that he has written about Satan, Lucifer and Jesus Christ as archetypes for the ego but in that order. Satan as the ego that is dependent on the lowest in man (carnal nature, subconscious etc). Lucifer as the ego enlightened but in a false way. And then Jesus Christ as where ego and self become one in what is called Selfhood which is the great goal.

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idunnosomename
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
Posts: 165
Location: England
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:55 pm 
 

Wow if you get upset for drawing on Christian imagery in lyrics, there goes pretty much everything in metal

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HeavenDuff
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 941
Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:48 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
It was? Maybe you should just tell me why you think I'm wrong and be upfront about it instead of asking a rhetorical question.

A purely secular theory of the mind does not mean you cannot use characters and story arcs from mythologies to make your point. A purely secular theory of ethics could invoke the stories in the Bible, without being "religious" for that reason.
If you compare it to Jung's use of archetypes and mythology and how he relates it to the collective unconsciousness you will see how different these two approach the subject. Joseph Cambell wrote an essay or an article which explained it very clear, I'll post a link if I find it online.


You have a good point here. Thanks for explaining what you meant.

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BrutalizerUtilizerOfTheShadows
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:59 am
Posts: 723
Location: In the Cold Winds of Nowhere
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:51 pm 
 

idunnosomename wrote:
Wow if you get upset for drawing on Christian imagery in lyrics, there goes pretty much everything in metal


A valid point, especially provided that he bears "St. Peter's Cross" on his forehead! :lol:
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