Everybody knows that the Metal Archives has strict definitions on what constitute as "metal." But what is less known is that there are non-metal exceptions in the Archives that are thought to be relevant to the metal scene. There are those proto-metal bands like Deep Purple, Rush, and Thin Lizzy which were highly influential, but there are also acts like Wongraven, Mortiis, and Arditi, which are essentially just some form of dark ambience, darkwave, or dungeon synth. Now, I know the MA won't have add any more exceptions, nor do I think that they will remove these non-metal exceptions any time soon, but I am personally not a huge fan of them in the Archives because I feel they just add some more clutter and most of these are probably not known to the majority of metalheads who aren't super passionate about underground black metal. I will say though I do like the [i]Die Verbannten Kinder Evas[/i ]track. But what are your thoughts? Are you okay with them being in the Archives? Assuming they will allow it, what other non-metal entries would you add because of their relevance or adjacency to metal?

To me those few exceptions add way less to the clutter than perhaps the tens of thousands of absolute bottom tier bedroom "bands" or stuff like those "official" bootlegs that are totally fucking up the Metallica page.

At least Mortiis has a legacy and an interesting story connected to the history of the Black metal genre. Jerry who works at the local grocery store, who plays all instruments and churns out five demo's each week for each of his twelve one-man projects does not.

Might just be me though.

I like the proto-metal selections, the ones you mentioned, along with others like Bang, Sir Lord Baltimore, etc deserve to stay. I would actually love more proto metal like Coven being included but I know it'll never happen

Honest question here: with over 177,000 bands currently present in the archive, are those few examples really "clutter"? Do they impede a person's ability to find bands that they are looking for?

I'm impressed with how massive the archive has grown to be over the decades.

A reason why Thin Lizzy deserve their place on here beyond the "proto" tag: Thunder and Lightning.

Agreed. Would love more of these bands to appear on the Archives.

It's bands like these that I'd really like to know the rationale for their inclusion. Stuff like Wongraven or Neptune Towers I can maybe see as they're projects of pretty significant metal musicians. Arditi, Puissance, Arcana and a few others however are not. Those projects do have members in some metal bands, but none that anyone actually talks about.

I definitely appreciate the inclusion of proto metal bands. The inclusion of darkwave, dungeon synth, etc doesn't really bother me. I don't think there's much of a clutter effect.

let's be real, nobody gives a shit about MOST of the "underground black metal" on the MA, even huge diehard black metal people, lmao

Blue Oyster Cult need to be added to the archives under the 'exceptions' rule because of their large and obvious influence on the metal genre.

Either include both BOC and Rush on the archives under this rule or don't include either. Be consistent, please.

I will refrain from talking about some metal bands not included here, but the fact that we have a bunch of dated neoclassical darkwave acts instead is just another example of the mods being hypocrites. Elend may be kinda cool and have connections to Deathspell Omega, but they're not metal in the least and should not be here.

Call me old and cynical, but at this point I couldn't care less about bands being in or out of the Archives. I do care about this being one of my most frequently visited sites in the last, well seems like forever, and I am grateful for its existence and the work of everyone going into it.

I'm sort of neutral on this. I know it's a tough call with certain bands and they have almost certainly debated these bands extensively.
While I would agree it is probably necessary for completist sake to document all the amateur worthless Zarach Baal Tharagh type one-kid-in-his-basement "Bands" out there, if the majority of these disappeared from the archives, I doubt most people would even notice. (And many of these so-called "bands" really do scrape the bottom of the barrel. I've heard some that make ZBT sound like Dragon Force by comparison!)

Then there are bands that stopped being metal but are still on the archives or their albums are. I'd say at least don't include non-metal albums once a band stops being metal.

Then there's the weird removal of Slaughter to Prevail. Not sure what the reasoning there is.

I'm all for including artists like Mortiis, who played a pivotal role and have a very real legacy in black metal. Mortiis was important for his role in Emperor, but also because his dungeon synth material is very much aligned with the black metal ethos and aesthetics of the time. He influenced and was influenced by black metal.

I don't see them as cluttering the Archives, and I really don't see how they could cause much confusion. They are not categorized under "black metal", and also, I'm fairly certain that there aren't all that many people who aren't at least a little bit versed in the black metal culture who stumble upon his page.

What do they clutter? How do you find stuff like that without intentionally seeking it out? Do people really just go to the band listing on this website and scroll through them one by one or something?

personally, i'd remove the non-metal proto/influencers just so we'd get less people crying over "how is rush considered metal, but my fave nu-core band isn't???"

the non-metal side projects i'd remove on the basis that it's completely arbitrary which ones should be included and which ones not. if a member of a metal band has/had a side project that's relevant to the history of metal, you can have all the info about it on the person's bio

Well said.
I logged in to say a variation of this. I've been here a long time, and I love every second of it. I don't view anything listed as clutter, its all information to me, and that's why I'm here.
Thank you to everybody involved.

Word. It staggers me that this conversation is still happening. Make your own fucking archive if you don't like this one.

What I want to know is why industrial bands are completely shut out. I can see syth driven bands but to leave out Nine Inch Nails, Rammstein, and KMFDM, all of whom are heavy as fuck when they want to be, seems lacking.

Nine Inch Nails is not metal.

I do have a soft spot for High Tide, but they weren't that popular to be hugely influential.




Released a year before Black Sabbath's first LP. Heavy guitars for sure. Proto-metal-ish? Maybe.

Some earlier Gary Moore solo albums are absolutely shredding... They weren't prototypes, though, I guess.

About industrial bands mentioned by Traxan: They may be heavy, but no metal.

I don't care if a band isn't "metal" enough for the archives, I'm here for the quality releases.

Certainly not a fan of avoiding selected albums that might be not metal enough, cause who is going to keep track of this? Even if they aren't 100% metal they might still be a part of the band's vision in a way it really fits into their discography. (Summoning - Lost Tales, Beherit - Electric Doom Synthesis...)

The reason a band always gets removed: They didn't start in the 80s and they got too popular. Don't get me wrong, StP blows donkey dick, but a spade is a spade.

Their music doesn't contain metal riffing. Rammstein is NDH. Also, claiming industrial bands are shut out is a total phallacy; for example Fear Factory, Die Krupps, and Ministry are on here.

KMFDM is one of my favorite bands of all time, but they are not metal. The band themselves have said many times over the years that they are not metal as well.

well, if you check here on wikipedia first bands mentioned are not onto this archives, Jimi Hendrix, Aerosmith, Blue Cheer....
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronologie_du_metal

so, where classic world is seing metal in these bands we call them hard rock - and we can see wiki don't really know when where is "heavy metal" coming from - First band is from NWOBHM and is on archives, that's Def Leppard, honestly a hard rock band to me. So there's a different approach on definition which is maybe missing here, just to explain why this and why not this?

same goes for others, like BM, like folk (Heilung?) and for punks side of metal. If you come from punks you'll consider The Exploited like metal, and it is actually on archives, where Refused is not, Converge is not....

King Crimson deserves to be in the Archives for the same reason Rush is in the archives. Their impact on metal is very Noticeable. Without King Crimson, their influence on experimental metal would be inexistent, meaning if King Crimson never formed, we probably wouldn't have bands like Portal.

Goethe invented black metal, might as well add him while we're at it.