Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
ksevile
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:12 pm
Posts: 1630
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:36 am 
 

While listening to Origin's Antithesis (specifically the title track) recently, I could not help but be particularly captivated by one of the oddest time signatures that I have ever heard. I've been trying to drum up some examples from recent memory as I've been on a brief hiatus as of late, but Atheist certainly comes mind, in addition to Gorguts (ahem... Obscura).

What are some others you all have noticed that struck you similarly?
_________________
Instinct is no match for reason.

Top
 Profile  
Twisted_Psychology
Veteran

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 3967
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:38 am 
 

It's such a cliché to bring up but Dream Theater's The Dance of Eternity is the first thing that comes to mind. I suppose it's most noteworthy for the frequent changes than anything but the ones like 11/4 and 17/16 are pretty unorthodox.
_________________
Spirit Division (Stoner/Doom): http://spiritdivision.bandcamp.com
My solo acoustic project (Dark Folk/Blues): http://christophersteve.bandcamp.com/
Lavaborne (Heavy/Power/Doom): https://lavaborne.bandcamp.com

Top
 Profile  
MrMcThrasher II
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 1277
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:09 pm 
 

Did you hear about the progressive stoner metal band writing a song in 4/20 time?
_________________
Murtal wrote:
In flames became MeloDICK Death Metal

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
Also hopefully they take it as a sign they're not meant to make more albums.

Top
 Profile  
MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 704
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:26 am 
 

The verse of Master of Puppets is 21/32, due to James Hetfield rushing a note.

Top
 Profile  
jimbies
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
Posts: 834
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:13 am 
 

MawBTS wrote:
The verse of Master of Puppets is 21/32, due to James Hetfield rushing a note.


The youtube videos breaking this down are fascinating, but also kind of make me scratch my head thinking "WHO had time to study this one note so much?"

Top
 Profile  
DecemberSoul
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:46 am
Posts: 728
Location: Switzerland
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:16 am 
 

MawBTS wrote:
The verse of Master of Puppets is 21/32, due to James Hetfield rushing a note.


So... there might be a mentally challenged NS band somewhere out there who accidentally played a 14/88 signature?

Apologies; I pretty much had to.
_________________
______In Marble Halls Of Falling Snow______

Top
 Profile  
FirebathDan
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 966
Location: Greensboro, NC, US
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:41 am 
 

Quote:
jimbies and MawBTS on the "MoP' 21/32 theory.


It's because this is a complete bullshit theory that came up in recent years and has been applied retroactively.

This idea seems to be born out of the modernization of capturing music-that every note has to be metronomically flawless on a grid.

There's absolutely no way whatsoever that when the band wrote this song in 1985, that they had intended this bar to be in the absurd time signature of 21/32-I cannot be convinced of this. And it's the intent of the artist that matters here, not some doofy YouTube nerd trying to dick waggle about how theoretically smart or technically savvy they are by ludicrously over-analyzing something they had no part in creating.

It's obvious that this measure was meant to be felt rather than rigidly counted, and it's highly likely that this song was recorded without a click track, hence why each repetition is loosely performed. Even if they did use a click track, a bar of 21/32 at that tempo would be an unusable blur of noise that even the most technical musicians would not be able to play along with.

It's impossible for any one person to count that fast-the song is reputed to be 212bpm to the quarter note, so 32nd notes fly by at 1696bpm (32nd notes being 8 times as fast as quarter notes at the same tempo), where 28.3 32nd notes play every second. No one is capable of accurately counting 21 beats in what is roughly 3/4s of a second and play accurate musical syncopation on top of it. It's simply not feasible.

My opinion (emphasis) is that this is s sloppily played bar of 5/8, which I also opine that they did not set out to do, they just felt it out when the riff was written. Of course, shy of Hetfield or Ulrich coming out and saying how this bar should be counted, there's no way of knowing for sure, but I'm relatively confident they'd laugh off the absurd notion of 21/32.

Sorry about the ranting, and not trying to call either of you two out or give either of you a hard time, it's just this idea gets under my skin for some inexplicable reason.
_________________
My current rock band:

Paper Machetes

My old metal bands:

Dark Sacrament Cold Blank Stare Coagulated Blood Obliteration

Top
 Profile  
androdion
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
Posts: 5986
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:38 pm 
 

Anything written by Watchtower and Spiral Architect is bound to impress the OP in terms of complex time signatures. Sorry for not putting out the theory of those two examples but I'm simply not capable of doing so. :lol:
_________________
ANGST ISST DIE SEELE AUF
androdion@Discogs

Top
 Profile  
jimbies
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:52 pm
Posts: 834
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:51 pm 
 

FirebathDan wrote:
Quote:
jimbies and MawBTS on the "MoP' 21/32 theory.

Sorry about the ranting, and not trying to call either of you two out or give either of you a hard time, it's just this idea gets under my skin for some inexplicable reason.


No, dude, I totally 100% agree with you.

Top
 Profile  
Terri23
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
Posts: 2359
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:20 pm 
 

FirebathDan wrote:
MoP rant


They didn't intend anything. The guys at the time didn't know anything about musical theory, let alone what a 21/32 time signature was. All they did was write a piece of music, which came together during a jam session that sounded great to them.
_________________
metaldiscussor666 wrote:
American isn't a nationality

Riffs wrote:
It's been scientifically proven that appreciating Black Sabbath helps increase life expectancy, improves happiness, bumps your salary by 11 thousand dollars annually, helps fight cavities and increases penis size.

Top
 Profile  
thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 858
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:53 pm 
 

FirebathDan wrote:
Quote:
jimbies and MawBTS on the "MoP' 21/32 theory.


It's impossible for any one person to count that fast-the song is reputed to be 212bpm to the quarter note, so 32nd notes fly by at 1696bpm (32nd notes being 8 times as fast as quarter notes at the same tempo), where 28.3 32nd notes play every second. No one is capable of accurately counting 21 beats in what is roughly 3/4s of a second and play accurate musical syncopation on top of it. It's simply not feasible.

My opinion (emphasis) is that this is s sloppily played bar of 5/8, which I also opine that they did not set out to do, they just felt it out when the riff was written. Of course, shy of Hetfield or Ulrich coming out and saying how this bar should be counted, there's no way of knowing for sure, but I'm relatively confident they'd laugh off the absurd notion of 21/32.

Sorry about the ranting, and not trying to call either of you two out or give either of you a hard time, it's just this idea gets under my skin for some inexplicable reason.


This is a lot of ranting for nothing. Absolutely no one will disagree, pretty much everybody who talks about it makes it clear that definitely was never the intention. Hell, I doubt they even wanted it to be 5/8, they just liked the way the riff sounded. But James rushing the note means that when you go back to transcribe it, writing it as 21/32 is the only way to get it to sound right. They accidentally did some weird shit because they were just jamming.

Top
 Profile  
Zodijackyl
Definitely Proportionate

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 7191
Location: Longmont Potion Castle
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:25 pm 
 

One of the most fascinating things I've heard is the drum work on Confessor's "Condemned" and drummer Steve Shelton did a wonderful job breaking it down and explaining how it came together, one part at a time. He's such an incredible and creative drummer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_54BL0aOt5E

Top
 Profile  
MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 704
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:35 pm 
 

Quote:
Sorry about the ranting, and not trying to call either of you two out or give either of you a hard time, it's just this idea gets under my skin for some inexplicable reason.


My guess is that you think Metallica is overrated, and "Metallica wrote a 21/32 passage" sounds like "Metallica are BRILLIANT MUSICAL GENIUSES" or something.

But in reality, anyone can compose in a weird time signature. You don't even need to know how to play music! A 5 year old bashing a piano is probably playing 19.5/4+2 or something, if you transcribe the part down. The challenging part is playing it back, but if it's locked in musical memory then it becomes unconscious. James Hetfield has probably played that song so many times he isn't even aware he's skipping a note.

But the Master of Puppets riff is definitely 21/32. This is remains true regardless of Metallica's skill or level of musical knowledge.

Top
 Profile  
EpicSceptic
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:26 am
Posts: 504
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:45 am 
 

On topic:

If you want a glimpse into a whole other level of rhythms/beats/time signatures give this a read.

As for metal examples, I'll just drop the obligatory Meshuggah mention. I'm not really too excited about the adoption of the entire djent genre, but there was a time that these guys were really doing something entirely unique.

Overall I think a lot of the drum work that Czral of Virus/Ved Buens Ende fame did is underrated in terms of how complicated the time signatures are. The riffs might mostly be in 4/4, but there is really seldom a dull moment thanks to his constant fills, and he often employs interesting jazz inspired beats.

Top
 Profile  
e_ddi_e
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:00 am
Posts: 319
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:31 am 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
One of the most fascinating things I've heard is the drum work on Confessor's "Condemned" and drummer Steve Shelton did a wonderful job breaking it down and explaining how it came together, one part at a time. He's such an incredible and creative drummer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_54BL0aOt5E



Yes.

Top
 Profile  
FirebathDan
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 966
Location: Greensboro, NC, US
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:53 am 
 

MawBTS wrote:
My guess is that you think Metallica is overrated, and "Metallica wrote a 21/32 passage" sounds like "Metallica are BRILLIANT MUSICAL GENIUSES" or something.

But in reality, anyone can compose in a weird time signature. You don't even need to know how to play music! A 5 year old bashing a piano is probably playing 19.5/4+2 or something, if you transcribe the part down. The challenging part is playing it back, but if it's locked in musical memory then it becomes unconscious. James Hetfield has probably played that song so many times he isn't even aware he's skipping a note.


*sighs* I don't know why I bother sometimes.

My point has little to do with Metallica themselves (which I have nothing bad to say about their entire body of work, actually) and is more about the idea that some millennial YouTube dweeb can over analyze something they had no hand in creating, put a video out there, and have other millennial YouTube dweebs accept it as new facts. It's retroactive re-contextualization. Had you actually read and comprehended before reacting, you might have got that.

That and that 21/32-as claimed by anyone in any song-is not a feasibly practical time signature at 212 quarter notes per minute. There's not a single person on earth that can legitimately and accurately execute that.

Quote:
But the Master of Puppets riff is definitely 21/32. This is remains true regardless of Metallica's skill or level of musical knowledge.


Absolute bullshit.

thrashinbatman wrote:
...writing it as 21/32 is the only way to get it to sound right.


We seem to by and large agree, but I can't get on board with this. In the video where this theory originates, they compare the original recording to an obvious GuitarPro (or GuitarPro like implement) sample and have to use this absurd impractical time signature to force the ultra rigid GuitarPro to try and emulate what we pretty much agree as something that was done completely on feel when it was originally captured.

Terri23 wrote:
They didn't intend anything. The guys at the time didn't know anything about musical theory, let alone what a 21/32 time signature was. All they did was write a piece of music, which came together during a jam session that sounded great to them.


Pretty much exactly what I said, we seem to also by and large agree. The umbrage-again-is that someone who wasn't there when the song was written, who was (at best) maybe all of 5 years old when this song was written, goes on YouTube in 2017 and says "well, actually, 21/32" and people accept it as fact.

It's leeching off of someone else's work for their own notoriety (probably mostly in the interest of getting views on a monetized video) that irks me. Because if they actually wrote their own song in 21/32 at 212bpm, no one would give a shit and we certainly would not be having this discussion. But throw Metallica in there and boom, people are arguing on the internet somewhere.
_________________
My current rock band:

Paper Machetes

My old metal bands:

Dark Sacrament Cold Blank Stare Coagulated Blood Obliteration

Top
 Profile  
MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 704
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:17 am 
 

Quote:
My point has little to do with Metallica themselves (which I have nothing bad to say about their entire body of work, actually) and is more about the idea that some millennial YouTube dweeb can over analyze something they had no hand in creating, put a video out there, and have other millennial YouTube dweebs accept it as new facts. It's retroactive re-contextualization. Had you actually read and comprehended before reacting, you might have got that.


I have no idea where you're going here, especially since you agreed with someone saying the same thing as me, but Metallica's intent doesn't matter. They might have meant it to be 5/8, or maybe they didn't even know what a time signature was. But I assure you, it's 21/32, and this was true from the second it was recorded. There's nothing "retroactive" about it.

Quote:
That and that 21/32-as claimed by anyone in any song-is not a feasibly practical time signature at 212 quarter notes per minute. There's not a single person on earth that can legitimately and accurately execute that.


You think nobody composes music that humans can't play? Look up "black midi" and "Conlon Nancarrow" some time.

Top
 Profile  
FirebathDan
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 966
Location: Greensboro, NC, US
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:59 am 
 

MawBTS wrote:
I have no idea where you're going here, especially since you agreed with someone saying the same thing as me, but Metallica's intent doesn't matter. They might have meant it to be 5/8, or maybe they didn't even know what a time signature was. But I assure you, it's 21/32, and this was true from the second it was recorded. There's nothing "retroactive" about it.


Your assurances mean absolutely nothing to me because you did not write the song. The YouTube video floating this theory did not surface until 2017. You're basically making stuff up at this point.

Quote:
You think nobody composes music that humans can't play? Look up "black midi" and "Conlon Nancarrow" some time.


This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion and you're using it to try and distract from the fact that you essentially have nothing to say.

I'll put it to you this way: the only way I'll accept 21/32 is from the source-get Hetfield or Ulrich to say it on video in no uncertain terms. Otherwise I've wasted far too much time on you.
_________________
My current rock band:

Paper Machetes

My old metal bands:

Dark Sacrament Cold Blank Stare Coagulated Blood Obliteration

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: narsilianshard, Pedr00, Runko and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

  Print view
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group