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PROGRESSIVE METAL
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Author:  hmtlchriscon88 [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  PROGRESSIVE METAL
what makes progressive metal different from all the other metal genres. Ive allways though its the way the play. is it because they play like death metal but sing like other heavy metal band.
Author:  RaveNStorM [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
Because Progressive Metal is gay.
Author:  hmtlchriscon88 [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
No it's not. what metal genre do you like?
Author:  Empyreal [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Progressive Metal SHOULD be any sort of metal that progresses from its genre conventions and creates something new, but these days it seems to be defined as metal with complex arrangements and spacey keyboards and lyrics about things nobody understands. Well, either that, or it's mis-labeled upon shitty bands like Evergrey or Biomechanical who people for some reason think are "intelligent" or something of the sort.
Author:  hmtlchriscon88 [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
what about bands like dream theater or sympony x? they sound pretty sophisticated in the way they play.
Author:  rexxz [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
There's two different things that the label applies to. The most common is the Pagan's Mind, Stride, Space Odyssey, Dream Theater brand of music. This is because of the large similarities that these bands share with late 70's and early 80's prog rock.

The other usage of the term applies to bands that manage to stay within the confines of an existing genre and simultaneously expand upon it, hence "progression".

Hope that clears it up for you.
Author:  ~Guest 62838 [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
rexxz wrote:
There's two different things that the label applies to. The most common is the Pagan's Mind, Stride, Space Odyssey, Dream Theater brand of music. This is because of the large similarities that these bands share with late 70's and early 80's prog rock.

The other usage of the term applies to bands that manage to stay within the confines of an existing genre and simultaneously expand upon it, hence "progression".

Hope that clears it up for you.

So what would be the difference between prog and avant-garde then?
Author:  UnserHeiligeTod [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Empyreal wrote:
lyrics about things nobody understands.

You seem to have a problem with this. Must all lyrics be about having fun and rocking out and being happy and cheery to you?
Author:  Empyreal [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
UnserHeiligeTod wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
lyrics about things nobody understands.

You seem to have a problem with this. Must all lyrics be about having fun and rocking out and being happy and cheery to you?


Nah, I was merely commenting on the fact that Prog has mainly come to reflect a genre of music that defines itself on a specific template (the Dream Theater one of more introspective, personal lyrics, along with lots of time changes and keys inter playing with the riffs) - rather than actually progressing anymore. Not all Prog is like this, and like rexxz said, it's a continuation of the 70s/80s Prog Rock sound, but you get my point. And I still like bands like this anyway.

I don't even have a problem with lyrics that don't make sense to anyone - if they are well written, then they're fine. Have I ever said/implied anything to the contrary?
Author:  rexxz [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
There's two different things that the label applies to. The most common is the Pagan's Mind, Stride, Space Odyssey, Dream Theater brand of music. This is because of the large similarities that these bands share with late 70's and early 80's prog rock.

The other usage of the term applies to bands that manage to stay within the confines of an existing genre and simultaneously expand upon it, hence "progression".

Hope that clears it up for you.

So what would be the difference between prog and avant-garde then?


Avant-garde is a retrospective term typically applied to bands that have done somthing significantly influential and novel in music. Hellhammer, Elvis Presley and James Brown could be all considered avant-garde. It's not a style specific thing. The differentiation between something that is merely progressing a genre and something that is avant garde is that the latter will be doing something almost completely new.
Author:  UnserHeiligeTod [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Empyreal wrote:
I don't even have a problem with lyrics that don't make sense to anyone - if they are well written, then they're fine. Have I ever said/implied anything to the contrary?

Well, yes. I recall reading your comments about this issue with some bands you didn't like (don't remember exactly which, but I'm sure they were new age modern metal with unorthodox lyrics as part of their presentation).
Author:  ~Guest 62838 [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
rexxz wrote:
Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
There's two different things that the label applies to. The most common is the Pagan's Mind, Stride, Space Odyssey, Dream Theater brand of music. This is because of the large similarities that these bands share with late 70's and early 80's prog rock.

The other usage of the term applies to bands that manage to stay within the confines of an existing genre and simultaneously expand upon it, hence "progression".

Hope that clears it up for you.

So what would be the difference between prog and avant-garde then?


Avant-garde is a retrospective term typically applied to bands that have done somthing significantly influential and novel in music. Hellhammer, Elvis Presley and James Brown could be all considered avant-garde. It's not a style specific thing. The differentiation between something that is merely progressing a genre and something that is avant garde is that the latter will be doing something almost completely new.

I was always under the impression that avant-garde meant experimental.
Author:  Kruel [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Literally, it means "vanguard."
Author:  Empyreal [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
UnserHeiligeTod wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
I don't even have a problem with lyrics that don't make sense to anyone - if they are well written, then they're fine. Have I ever said/implied anything to the contrary?

Well, yes. I recall reading your comments about this issue with some bands you didn't like (don't remember exactly which, but I'm sure they were new age modern metal with unorthodox lyrics as part of their presentation).

Probably they were bands whose lyrics involved sorry-assed self-pitious themes like Evergrey or some shit. I don't really get pissed off at too many bands' lyrics...
Author:  juicebitch [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
There's two different things that the label applies to. The most common is the Pagan's Mind, Stride, Space Odyssey, Dream Theater brand of music. This is because of the large similarities that these bands share with late 70's and early 80's prog rock.

The other usage of the term applies to bands that manage to stay within the confines of an existing genre and simultaneously expand upon it, hence "progression".

Hope that clears it up for you.

So what would be the difference between prog and avant-garde then?


Avant-garde is a retrospective term typically applied to bands that have done somthing significantly influential and novel in music. Hellhammer, Elvis Presley and James Brown could be all considered avant-garde. It's not a style specific thing. The differentiation between something that is merely progressing a genre and something that is avant garde is that the latter will be doing something almost completely new.

I was always under the impression that avant-garde meant experimental.


What may be experimental today will not be regarded as experimental tomorrow. It is a backwards looking term.
Author:  steady666 [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't like it how the progressive metal label is handed out to bands that don't really deserve it. I mean for example bands like Pagan's Mind from what I have heard don't do anything complex (or anything that interesting for that matter) at all in any of their songs. In my eyes (ears?) there are two types of progressive metal. Those who incorporate many different musical styles (eg: Opeth, Dream Theater) and those who have technical riffs based on numerous key signature and time changes (Spiral Architect, Zero Hour). Sure, there's plenty of bands that fit in between this and blend both. I believe this is true progressive metal. Not this influx of bands who have mid to high pitch vocals placed over chugga-chugga riffs.

But then again, I guess it's really hard to group these bands together so it's just easy for people to slap on the 'prog' label... :ugh:

Edit: I just realized I ignore what was originally asked. I do that frequently... Anyway OP should check out more Progressive Metal bands if he wants to know the difference. Upon hearing certain bands it will be made clear. I think that would be the easiest way...
Author:  WereHuman [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:14 am ]
Post subject: 
I think the way that people call any complex time signature into prog is a mistake. Progressive music, as already mentioned, has to do with progression, creating atmospheres, well elaborated music. If you take something from the called 5 biggest progressive bands (Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis and - i cant remember), you'll see what this atmospheres are about.
I guess Dream Theater (were they really the 'creators' of progmetal?) has captured the way of progress music and put in the metal element.

But then some bands appeared as progmetal having no progressive influence but time signatures... and I dont get it.
Author:  Expedience [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mightn't we reconcile the conflict by admitting that the concept of "progress" in music is nonsense? Progressive music has nothing to do with progression. You can't define a genre by such an abstract and personal criterion. How pretentious would a band have to be to say they are progressing further than music that came before them?
Author:  Oflick [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:33 am ]
Post subject: 
WereHuman wrote:
If you take something from the called 5 biggest progressive bands (Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis and - i cant remember)


Rush?
Author:  saintinhell [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Oflick wrote:
WereHuman wrote:
If you take something from the called 5 biggest progressive bands (Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis and - i cant remember)


Rush?


More likely it's EL&P or Jethro Tull.
Author:  Abominatrix [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:36 am ]
Post subject: 
WereHuman wrote:
I think the way that people call any complex time signature into prog is a mistake. Progressive music, as already mentioned, has to do with progression, creating atmospheres, well elaborated music. If you take something from the called 5 biggest progressive bands (Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis and - i cant remember), you'll see what this atmospheres are about.
I guess Dream Theater (were they really the 'creators' of progmetal?) has captured the way of progress music and put in the metal element.

But then some bands appeared as progmetal having no progressive influence but time signatures... and I dont get it.


Dream Theater may have inspired a plethora of clones and immitators, but they did not invent progressive metal, and there were plenty of metal bands playing with really progressive ideas before DT came onto the scene.
Author:  spoonhead [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Progressive is an attribute, not a genre. Any kind of music can be progressive and it has no specific sound. It's all about how the songs are written and arranged. Progressive is a more story-like way of putting a song together instead of repeating riffs, verse-chorus-verse-chorus etc.

That's my take on it at least.
Author:  WereHuman [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
saintinhell wrote:
Oflick wrote:
WereHuman wrote:
If you take something from the called 5 biggest progressive bands (Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis and - i cant remember)


Rush?


More likely it's EL&P or Jethro Tull.

That's it! EL&P!
Author:  WereHuman [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Abominatrix wrote:
Dream Theater may have inspired a plethora of clones and immitators, but they did not invent progressive metal, and there were plenty of metal bands playing with really progressive ideas before DT came onto the scene.

Such as?
Author:  enslaved__ [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Queensryche and Fates Warning are the biggest examples.On the other hand,there were many Thrash Metal bands,playing in progressive style,which also inspired Dream Theater.Like Watchtower,Toxik,and And Justice For All-era Metallica...
Author:  Dolf9271986 [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
spoonhead wrote:
Progressive is an attribute, not a genre. Any kind of music can be progressive and it has no specific sound. It's all about how the songs are written and arranged. Progressive is a more story-like way of putting a song together instead of repeating riffs, verse-chorus-verse-chorus etc.

That's my take on it at least.



That's exactly my opinion as well.
Author:  Empyreal [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
You can be progressive within the verse/chorus format, too, though, but yes, otherwise I would agree also. Prog Metal has just been misconstrued to describe a Dream Theater-esque sound.
Author:  saintinhell [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Empyreal wrote:
You can be progressive within the verse/chorus format, too, though, but yes, otherwise I would agree also. Prog Metal has just been misconstrued to describe a Dream Theater-esque sound.


I don't know, I think breaking out of the verse-chorus cycle is the most essential attribute of prog. Unfortunately, a lot of people think it's just about music with odd time signatures. While prog bands do have the tendency to use odd time signatures, eschewing the verse-chorus cycle is the most important aspect of prog. Which doesn't again mean that every song by every prog band will adhere to this rule though because then as now, the better known bands tried/try to make something more accessible and easier to absorb.
Author:  Empyreal [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
saintinhell wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
You can be progressive within the verse/chorus format, too, though, but yes, otherwise I would agree also. Prog Metal has just been misconstrued to describe a Dream Theater-esque sound.


I don't know, I think breaking out of the verse-chorus cycle is the most essential attribute of prog. Unfortunately, a lot of people think it's just about music with odd time signatures. While prog bands do have the tendency to use odd time signatures, eschewing the verse-chorus cycle is the most important aspect of prog. Which doesn't again mean that every song by every prog band will adhere to this rule though because then as now, the better known bands tried/try to make something more accessible and easier to absorb.

Yeah, you're right. I would still argue that a band can create something new and inventive within the standard verse/chorus/verse formula, though.
Author:  Dechripastocide [ Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Empyreal wrote:
I would still argue that a band can create something new and inventive within the standard verse/chorus/verse formula, though.

But where did Black Sabbath or Deep Purple fit into that? They both certainly made more album oriented stuff when most of their peers started jumping on the punk/disco bandwagon. I'm basically saying that heavy metal has, and always will have, a prog rock slant to its foundation.
Author:  Chavaluria [ Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:27 am ]
Post subject: 
RaveNStorM wrote:
Because Progressive Metal is gay.


¬¬
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