Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives :: View topic - Wintersun: Time -- Possibly A Massive Disappointment?

I believe he only composed and wrote the lyrics for some of the Ensiferum stuff, songs like Lai Lai Hei and Token Of Time, the rest was by Markus (and still is mostly).

Can someone tell me what this guy has done to deserve the "everything Jari does is great" fanfare? As far as I know, the only things he has done are an Ensiferum album and a Wintersun one, as well as a few obscure side-projects. It's hardly enough for all the applause in this thread.

Bash wrote:

Quote:

He's known for being the sole composer (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know about the Ensiferum albums) on three albums: Ensiferum, Iron and Wintersun, all of which many, many people (not me) consider masterpieces and has yet to produce anything below that standard. He's had a "good run" in the eyes of a lot of people and for now seems infallible.

I believe he only composed and wrote the lyrics for some of the Ensiferum stuff, songs like Lai Lai Hei and Token Of Time, the rest was by Markus (and still is mostly).

bangerhead wrote:

Bash wrote:

Quote:

I believe he only composed and wrote the lyrics for some of the Ensiferum stuff, songs like Lai Lai Hei and Token Of Time, the rest was by Markus (and still is mostly).

I really doubt this is true. The difference between Ensiferum with Jari and Ensiferum without Jari is huge, and Wintersun sounds a lot like Ensiferum when Jari was with them from a songwriting standpoint.

Well, Ensiferum without Jari has alot more folk elements in it. Just pointing that out...

CountBlagorath wrote:

Well, Ensiferum without Jari has alot more folk elements in it. Just pointing that out...

How? I would say it's the other way around. Sword Chant, Token of Time and Lei Lei Hei are three of their folkiest, the songs written only by Jari. Victory Songs is a lot more aggressive and overally less folky than Iron.

He has writing credits on just about every song on Iron, but only a couple of songs on the debut.

Aeonblade wrote:

He has writing credits on just about every song on Iron, but only a couple of songs on the debut.

And the debut is much better. Iron feels gimmicky and cliche while the debut actually seems to have some real and enjoyable depth to the music (Abandoned and Treacherous Gods in particular). Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Iron for what it is but I think the debut is by far the best thing that Ensiferum or Jari ever put out.

Here's the info:

"Ensiferum":

"Intro": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää
"Hero in a Dream": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää
"Token of Time": Jari Mäenpää
"Guardians of Fate": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää
"Old Man (Väinämöinen)": Markus Toivonen
"Little Dreamer (Väinämöinen Part II)": Markus Toivonen and Oliver Folkin
"Abandoned": Markus Toivonen
"Windrider": Markus Toivonen
"Treacherous Gods": Markus Toivonen
"Eternal Wait": Markus Toivonen
"Battle Song": Markus Toivonen
"Goblin's Dance": Markus Toivonen
All lyrics by Jari Mäenpää

"Iron":

"Ferrum Aeternum": (Couldn't find into)
"Iron": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää
"Sword Chant": Jari Mäenpää
"Mourning Heart - Interlude": (Couldn't find into)
"Tale of Revenge": Markus Toivonen
"Lost in Despair": Markus Toivonen
"Slayer of Light": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää
"Into Battle": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää
"LAI LAI HEI": Jari Mäenpää
"Tears": Markus Toivonen
All lyrics by Jari Mäenpää, except "Tears" by Jari Mäenpää and Kaisa Saari

"Wintersun":

All music and lyrics written by Jari Mäenpää

I have two reactions to this. I need to start respecting Markus Toivonen a hell of a lot more. My second reaction is that, pretty much all of the songs that Jari writes are more often than not my favorite songs off the album. I highly respect both guitarists now; Markus jumped up, Jari stayed about the same.

On a totally unrelated note, one of the things I like about "Wintersun" is that every track is longer than the previous track. Makes the album slowly build up - I like it.

Author:	Expedience [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:56 am ]
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bangerhead wrote: I believe he only composed and wrote the lyrics for some of the Ensiferum stuff, songs like Lai Lai Hei and Token Of Time, the rest was by Markus (and still is mostly). LOL. Great, 2 songs. It's no wonder Ensiferum didn't change all that much and are still better than Wintersun.

Author:	Rivendar [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:57 am ]
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Each to his own. Some folks will dislike it, others will cherish it, some will have their nuts caught on the barbed-wire fence. But what truly boggles this noggin is the youtube child like comment right above this post, shouldn't you be out cock worshipping Corey Taylor? But, it matters not, no need for pety arguments. I for one am anticipating this album, as Jari has yet to disappoint me (Iron be me favorite). As for wintersun, they have always lacked something when I give them a listen, sure It sounds good, it feels right, but It just doesn't do it for me as his Ensiferum work. Perhaps I just can't stomach too much guitar wankery, I'm truly not sure. Suppose I should take another listen on this fine day, as it has been a year past since I last took a real listen.

Author:	SabFan1 [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:22 pm ]
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Expedience wrote: Can someone tell me what this guy has done to deserve the "everything Jari does is great" fanfare? As far as I know, the only things he has done are an Ensiferum album and a Wintersun one, as well as a few obscure side-projects. It's hardly enough for all the applause in this thread. Well, if you listen to the following albums; Ensiferum - "Ensiferum" - 2001 Ensiferum - "Iron" - 2004 Wintersun - "Wintersun" - 2004 you will then understand why many people appreciate Jari. I have yet to hear his Arthemesia project, but from what I understand his work on "Devs Iratvs" (2001) was awesome as well. So far Jari seems to be 4 for 4 on releasing great albums. Which is pretty good since each band is a different Metal genre (Folk Metal, Black Metal, Melodic Death Metal).

Author:	Razakel [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:49 pm ]
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Only 'Time' will tell. . . heh, see what i did there?

Author:	BlindTortureKill [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:49 pm ]
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Yeah, but this album sure is taking it's 'Time' huh?

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Author:	Nahsil [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:05 pm ]
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bangerhead wrote: Bash wrote: Quote: Can someone tell me what this guy has done to deserve the "everything Jari does is great" fanfare? As far as I know, the only things he has done are an Ensiferum album and a Wintersun one, as well as a few obscure side-projects. It's hardly enough for all the applause in this thread. He's known for being the sole composer (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know about the Ensiferum albums) on three albums: Ensiferum, Iron and Wintersun, all of which many, many people (not me) consider masterpieces and has yet to produce anything below that standard. He's had a "good run" in the eyes of a lot of people and for now seems infallible. I believe he only composed and wrote the lyrics for some of the Ensiferum stuff, songs like Lai Lai Hei and Token Of Time, the rest was by Markus (and still is mostly). I really doubt this is true. The difference between Ensiferum with Jari and Ensiferum without Jari is huge, and Wintersun sounds a lot like Ensiferum when Jari was with them from a songwriting standpoint.

Author:	Aeonblade [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:36 pm ]
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He has writing credits on just about every song on Iron, but only a couple of songs on the debut.

Author:	Lyrici17 [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:43 pm ]
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Here's the info: "Ensiferum": "Intro": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "Hero in a Dream": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "Token of Time": Jari Mäenpää "Guardians of Fate": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "Old Man (Väinämöinen)": Markus Toivonen "Little Dreamer (Väinämöinen Part II)": Markus Toivonen and Oliver Folkin "Abandoned": Markus Toivonen "Windrider": Markus Toivonen "Treacherous Gods": Markus Toivonen "Eternal Wait": Markus Toivonen "Battle Song": Markus Toivonen "Goblin's Dance": Markus Toivonen All lyrics by Jari Mäenpää "Iron": "Ferrum Aeternum": (Couldn't find into) "Iron": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "Sword Chant": Jari Mäenpää "Mourning Heart - Interlude": (Couldn't find into) "Tale of Revenge": Markus Toivonen "Lost in Despair": Markus Toivonen "Slayer of Light": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "Into Battle": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "LAI LAI HEI": Jari Mäenpää "Tears": Markus Toivonen All lyrics by Jari Mäenpää, except "Tears" by Jari Mäenpää and Kaisa Saari "Wintersun": All music and lyrics written by Jari Mäenpää I have two reactions to this. I need to start respecting Markus Toivonen a hell of a lot more. My second reaction is that, pretty much all of the songs that Jari writes are more often than not my favorite songs off the album. I highly respect both guitarists now; Markus jumped up, Jari stayed about the same. On a totally unrelated note, one of the things I like about "Wintersun" is that every track is longer than the previous track. Makes the album slowly build up - I like it.

Author:	CountBlagorath [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:
Nahsil wrote: bangerhead wrote: Bash wrote: Quote: Can someone tell me what this guy has done to deserve the "everything Jari does is great" fanfare? As far as I know, the only things he has done are an Ensiferum album and a Wintersun one, as well as a few obscure side-projects. It's hardly enough for all the applause in this thread. He's known for being the sole composer (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know about the Ensiferum albums) on three albums: Ensiferum, Iron and Wintersun, all of which many, many people (not me) consider masterpieces and has yet to produce anything below that standard. He's had a "good run" in the eyes of a lot of people and for now seems infallible. I believe he only composed and wrote the lyrics for some of the Ensiferum stuff, songs like Lai Lai Hei and Token Of Time, the rest was by Markus (and still is mostly). I really doubt this is true. The difference between Ensiferum with Jari and Ensiferum without Jari is huge, and Wintersun sounds a lot like Ensiferum when Jari was with them from a songwriting standpoint. Well, Ensiferum without Jari has alot more folk elements in it. Just pointing that out...

Author:	Sentienth696 [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:
Well. . .time will tell! It will definately be different!

Author:	Expedience [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:
CountBlagorath wrote: Well, Ensiferum without Jari has alot more folk elements in it. Just pointing that out... How? I would say it's the other way around. Sword Chant, Token of Time and Lei Lei Hei are three of their folkiest, the songs written only by Jari. Victory Songs is a lot more aggressive and overally less folky than Iron.

Author:	CountBlagorath [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:
Expedience wrote: CountBlagorath wrote: Well, Ensiferum without Jari has alot more folk elements in it. Just pointing that out... How? I would say it's the other way around. Sword Chant, Token of Time and Lei Lei Hei are three of their folkiest, the songs written only by Jari. Victory Songs is a lot more aggressive and overally less folky than Iron. Those do have alot of folk elements in them, but just listen to "One More Magic Potion", "Wanderer", "Raised By The Sword" and "Victory Song". Those have alot more actual folk music in it than those that you said.

Author:	BardInTheForest [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:13 am ]
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Aeonblade wrote: He has writing credits on just about every song on Iron, but only a couple of songs on the debut. And the debut is much better. Iron feels gimmicky and cliche while the debut actually seems to have some real and enjoyable depth to the music (Abandoned and Treacherous Gods in particular). Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Iron for what it is but I think the debut is by far the best thing that Ensiferum or Jari ever put out.

Author:	Sir_General_Flashman [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:
BardInTheForest wrote: Aeonblade wrote: He has writing credits on just about every song on Iron, but only a couple of songs on the debut. And the debut is much better. Iron feels gimmicky and cliche while the debut actually seems to have some real and enjoyable depth to the music (Abandoned and Treacherous Gods in particular). Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Iron for what it is but I think the debut is by far the best thing that Ensiferum or Jari ever put out. Ensiferum is better than Iron, but Iron is a fun album, especially the title song, Into Battle, and Lai Lai Hei.

Author:	OlioTheSmall [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:01 pm ]
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I love the the debuts of both bands, yet I haven't heard "Iron". It'll probably be one of the first things I buy when I have money. I dare say I'll love it as I simply adore Jari and would worship him as my god if I weren't bound by metal to hail Satan. It does appear however that Markus is being given less credit than he is due. As for "Time," I've said it already; it's probably going to be good. Whether or not it matches the quality of Jari's previous works is a different matter but I don't for see him releasing anything bad. If we look strictly at the idea of it being a "let down," then it just may be, considering the expectation placed on it. I feel that this is mostly due to the amount of time going into the creation of it. With all the computer stuff-ups and what-not, people are becoming anxious and have built up a grand image of the album in their minds. There is no way to tell how good it will be, until it is released. We will all have to wait.

Author:	Leechmaster [ Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:35 am ]
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I hope it is good It looks like it is going to be quite long aswell

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Author:	Tea_and_Crumpets [ Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:19 am ]
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Lyrici17 wrote: Here's the info: "Ensiferum": "Intro": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "Hero in a Dream": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "Token of Time": Jari Mäenpää "Guardians of Fate": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "Old Man (Väinämöinen)": Markus Toivonen "Little Dreamer (Väinämöinen Part II)": Markus Toivonen and Oliver Folkin "Abandoned": Markus Toivonen "Windrider": Markus Toivonen "Treacherous Gods": Markus Toivonen "Eternal Wait": Markus Toivonen "Battle Song": Markus Toivonen "Goblin's Dance": Markus Toivonen All lyrics by Jari Mäenpää "Iron": "Ferrum Aeternum": (Couldn't find into) "Iron": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "Sword Chant": Jari Mäenpää "Mourning Heart - Interlude": (Couldn't find into) "Tale of Revenge": Markus Toivonen "Lost in Despair": Markus Toivonen "Slayer of Light": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "Into Battle": Markus Toivonen and Jari Mäenpää "LAI LAI HEI": Jari Mäenpää "Tears": Markus Toivonen All lyrics by Jari Mäenpää, except "Tears" by Jari Mäenpää and Kaisa Saari "Wintersun": All music and lyrics written by Jari Mäenpää I have two reactions to this. I need to start respecting Markus Toivonen a hell of a lot more. My second reaction is that, pretty much all of the songs that Jari writes are more often than not my favorite songs off the album. I highly respect both guitarists now; Markus jumped up, Jari stayed about the same. On a totally unrelated note, one of the things I like about "Wintersun" is that every track is longer than the previous track. Makes the album slowly build up - I like it. Point in case - all of the best songs have Jari's influence. Petri sucks in comparison, but its in the song writing department that he's missed the most. I think Ensiferum miss Jari, and while Wintersun is great (and theres no point about talking about Time without even a sample) he should have stuck with Ensiferum and kept Wintersun as a side affair. Wintersun dosnt live up to Ensiferums self entitled album, and I think both would be better together.

Author:	Maxim666 [ Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:15 pm ]
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On the official Wintersun forums Jari and Kai have confirmed that there will be a lot more orchestrations on the new album, a bit like Nightwish, but with a slight edge. They both sound really excited about all the stuff, so I don't really think they will let us down. Wintersun with orchestras, sounds great!