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Hardworlder
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Posts: 266
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 12:18 am 
 
Auch wrote:
Hardworlder wrote:
Nobody said Ghost yet?


Too easy almost haha.

They do fall in line with my current annoyance though, which is that Sleep Token band. Like Ghost, they have an aesthetic that feels metal to many people and unlike Ghost, they will occasionally use distorted guitars or distorted vocals but as we all know, that doesn't make them metal. They also like to jump between genres / styles between songs or even within songs, which can give a sense of "complexity," which I also think makes people ant to call them metal because those tendencies don't seem like a thing a mainstream rock band would do. But honestly, they're just a heavy alternative rock band who are influenced by prog rock, hip-hop, electronic genres, and (yes) a little bit of metal. The vocalist has that over-affected Hozier voice and then the music has a lot going on to ultimately do nothing.

There's a slew of these bands popping up all over TikTok. Sleep Token is one, Bad Omens is another. I'm sure there are plenty more.


If you really want to annoy sleep token fans just say that they're basically imagine dragons with breakdowns.
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Forever Underground
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:35 am
Posts: 1191
Location: Galiza
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 12:36 am 
 
SanPeron wrote:
Thexhumed wrote:
I do agree though with Drone, how's that metal?


I think that I'd rather hammer my balls than listen to a full Sunn O))) album.

See? It's so funny how your main complaint against MA's band acceptance system is that it is arbitrary and driven by the moderators' perceptions and tastes and yet at the same time you admit that you, arbitrarily, don't consider an entire musical subgenre as metal just because you don't like it.

Can we get back to the arc of arguing about whether X band is Nazi? It was much more interesting than this circle-jerk.
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SanPeron
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:56 pm
Posts: 1125
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 12:49 am 
 
Drone music is retarded. It's a guy playing a single distortion note and seeing how its echoes with the pedal effect for an hour. And you guys call this lame ass "music" metal, go back to the arthouse university where you never should have left and leave us metal fans alone. Maybe the art noise movement wants your sorry asses there where you belong.
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Last edited by SanPeron on Tue Mar 12, 2024 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Auch
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
Posts: 598
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:42 am 
 
Hardworlder wrote:
Auch wrote:
Hardworlder wrote:
Nobody said Ghost yet?


Too easy almost haha.

They do fall in line with my current annoyance though, which is that Sleep Token band. Like Ghost, they have an aesthetic that feels metal to many people and unlike Ghost, they will occasionally use distorted guitars or distorted vocals but as we all know, that doesn't make them metal. They also like to jump between genres / styles between songs or even within songs, which can give a sense of "complexity," which I also think makes people ant to call them metal because those tendencies don't seem like a thing a mainstream rock band would do. But honestly, they're just a heavy alternative rock band who are influenced by prog rock, hip-hop, electronic genres, and (yes) a little bit of metal. The vocalist has that over-affected Hozier voice and then the music has a lot going on to ultimately do nothing.

There's a slew of these bands popping up all over TikTok. Sleep Token is one, Bad Omens is another. I'm sure there are plenty more.


If you really want to annoy sleep token fans just say that they're basically imagine dragons with breakdowns.


This is very, very good and accurate. Thank you.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4730
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 11:51 am 
 
SanPeron wrote:
Atmospheric black metal, a personal enemy of mine. The guys barely use any riffs and the music has nothing to do with what we usually call metal.

To the guys saying metalcore and nu metal, go back to the DeLorean, the 80s are calling again.


You know, I think the same thing with a lot of the more atmospheric black metal. Barely any riffs, especially metal riffs, mostly just buzzing guitars that are "atmospheric". I do like some of it, but I don't see how it passes the metal guitars/riffs standard that so many swear by.
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Hardworlder
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Posts: 266
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 11:57 am 
 
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
SanPeron wrote:
Atmospheric black metal, a personal enemy of mine. The guys barely use any riffs and the music has nothing to do with what we usually call metal.

To the guys saying metalcore and nu metal, go back to the DeLorean, the 80s are calling again.


You know, I think the same thing with a lot of the more atmospheric black metal. Barely any riffs, especially metal riffs, mostly just buzzing guitars that are "atmospheric". I do like some of it, but I don't see how it passes the metal guitars/riffs standard that so many swear by.


I hear different types of BM both described as atmospheric - things like Caladan Brood for example which definitely have riffs, then stuff like Mesarthim which has very little. If someone claimed CB wasn't metal I'd think they were biased, but Mesarthim (despite the fact I like them in the right moment/mood) perhaps isn't metal.
So, is atmospheric BM, BM that creates a certain atmosphere or is it....ambient? Which IMO might be the better descriptor for the "riffless" BM.
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Benedict Donald
Veteran

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:36 am
Posts: 3214
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 12:01 pm 
 
I actually get triggered when I hear metal fans state that 'band x' is NOT metal, LOL.
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pyratebastard
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:05 pm
Posts: 430
Location: Cascadia
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 12:05 pm 
 
Gravetemplar wrote:
Motorhead.


The last thing going through my mind when I hear a song like "Burner" is "this ain't metal"...

Motörhead considered themselves to be a rock'n'roll band through to the end, but they did more than just inspire metal - they made some great examples of it along the way.
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I guess most people here are just standard copy pastes more concerned with defending the honor of celebrities than thinking about music.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35369
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 12:09 pm 
 
Motorhead were pretty rock and roll on the early stuff, pulling in a lot of elements, but definitely metal by the 90s and on.
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Last edited by Empyreal on Tue Mar 12, 2024 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CoconutBackwards
Bullet Centrist

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
Posts: 1818
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 12:38 pm 
 
SanPeron wrote:
Atmospheric black metal, a personal enemy of mine. The guys barely use any riffs and the music has nothing to do with what we usually call metal.

To the guys saying metalcore and nu metal, go back to the DeLorean, the 80s are calling again.



If my choices are saying "Nu metal" is metal, or going back to the 80s I'm headed back to the 80s.

What an embarrassing couple of years nu metal was for me.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4730
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:16 pm 
 
pyratebastard wrote:
Gravetemplar wrote:
Motorhead.


The last thing going through my mind when I hear a song like "Burner" is "this ain't metal"...

Motörhead considered themselves to be a rock'n'roll band through to the end, but they did more than just inspire metal - they made some great examples of it along the way.


Was Motorhead metal in the early days? By the standards of the early days yes, the hard genre boundaries and "rules" didn't really exist back then. And music was probably better for it.

By the 90's they were metal by any standard. Albums like Bastards, Sacrifice, or Inferno are jam packed with slamming metal riffs, and that isn't even bringing up all the other Motorhead classics. Sure they would still have some punky or rockabilly vibes going on, but to Lemmy its all just rock and roll.
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Durag
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:51 pm
Posts: 396
Location: Republic Of Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:24 pm 
 
Hardworlder wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
SanPeron wrote:
Atmospheric black metal, a personal enemy of mine. The guys barely use any riffs and the music has nothing to do with what we usually call metal.

To the guys saying metalcore and nu metal, go back to the DeLorean, the 80s are calling again.


You know, I think the same thing with a lot of the more atmospheric black metal. Barely any riffs, especially metal riffs, mostly just buzzing guitars that are "atmospheric". I do like some of it, but I don't see how it passes the metal guitars/riffs standard that so many swear by.


I hear different types of BM both described as atmospheric - things like Caladan Brood for example which definitely have riffs, then stuff like Mesarthim which has very little. If someone claimed CB wasn't metal I'd think they were biased, but Mesarthim (despite the fact I like them in the right moment/mood) perhaps isn't metal.
So, is atmospheric BM, BM that creates a certain atmosphere or is it....ambient? Which IMO might be the better descriptor for the "riffless" BM.


I do not like Mesarthim at all, i can see why people would not consider that type of atmo black 'metal' at all. But atmo black like WITTR, Afsky, Fluisteraars HVTO era Burzum, Agalloch, Drudkh... absolutely metal.

I like drone metal but I can see why people dont, and I can see why people dont understand how drone metal can be considered metal when some metallic hardcore bands like Great Falls arent considered metal, especially when sludge metal kind of bridges the gap a little bit.
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funeralravens
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:08 pm
Posts: 307
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:30 pm 
 
SanPeron wrote:
Atmospheric black metal, a personal enemy of mine. The guys barely use any riffs and the music has nothing to do with what we usually call metal.

To the guys saying metalcore and nu metal, go back to the DeLorean, the 80s are calling again.

Still more riffs than in metalcore and nu metal
Wrldeatr wrote:
Dark Tranquillity. They were metal once though.

What are they now?
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Hardworlder
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Posts: 266
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:32 pm 
 
Durag wrote:

I do not like Mesarthim at all, i can see why people would not consider that type of atmo black 'metal' at all. But atmo black like WITTR, Afsky, Fluisteraars HVTO era Burzum, Agalloch, Drudkh... absolutely metal.



Agreed, those are some of the bands I think of when I think of atmo black. Hard to say they aren't metal.

As far as Mesarthim...it's great for studying. I don't listen to it to LISTEN to it, I put it on when I need some background music to study or work to... That's pretty damning praise I understand.
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ThrashTilDeath530
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri May 13, 2022 1:17 pm
Posts: 64
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:45 pm 
 
Usually what happens when I meet someone new and they find out I'm a metalhead, they try to play something for me and for some reason it's always SoaD or Rammstein. I know they're just being nice so I don't want to gatekeep. I usually just tell them not to change the music on my account because nobody else wants to hear it, but really I just hate those bands.

I will second Bon Jovi and Sum41. If someone told me they were going to a "metal show" and that's who they were seeing, I would need to speak up.

For some reason people still seem to think being metal is cool or desirable and I can't figure out why. Metal hasn't been cool in at LEAST 20 years but people still want to think their favorite rock band is metal.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4730
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 2:11 pm 
 
For most people metal = loud distorted guitars with a singer than screams a lot.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4730
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 2:13 pm 
 
Hardworlder wrote:
Ace_Rimmer wrote:
SanPeron wrote:
Atmospheric black metal, a personal enemy of mine. The guys barely use any riffs and the music has nothing to do with what we usually call metal.

To the guys saying metalcore and nu metal, go back to the DeLorean, the 80s are calling again.


You know, I think the same thing with a lot of the more atmospheric black metal. Barely any riffs, especially metal riffs, mostly just buzzing guitars that are "atmospheric". I do like some of it, but I don't see how it passes the metal guitars/riffs standard that so many swear by.


I hear different types of BM both described as atmospheric - things like Caladan Brood for example which definitely have riffs, then stuff like Mesarthim which has very little. If someone claimed CB wasn't metal I'd think they were biased, but Mesarthim (despite the fact I like them in the right moment/mood) perhaps isn't metal.
So, is atmospheric BM, BM that creates a certain atmosphere or is it....ambient? Which IMO might be the better descriptor for the "riffless" BM.


True, some of the stuff labeled atmospheric is clearly based on what I would think of as metallic riffing, while some is more of ambient music that is being called metal since it shares some other characteristics with black metal.
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SanPeron
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:56 pm
Posts: 1125
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 2:45 pm 
 
Calling ambient synth music "metal" is a disease that has been affecting our genre for a couple of decades now.
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Defenestrated
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:50 pm
Posts: 306
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:44 pm 
 
Durag wrote:
I like drone metal but I can see why people dont, and I can see why people dont understand how drone metal can be considered metal...


I pretty much agree with this.

I'll bracket the rest of this post for being a half-baked, long-winded exercise in drone apologetics, but maybe it'll be of interest to some, I dunno.

Spoiler: show
IMO, drone music is not "retarded" (and it'd be nice to cut out the ableist talk, BTW), but I do think it's one of the best demonstrations that one person's "provocative, conceptually fascinating artistic experiment" can very, very easily be another person's "pretentious tripe." Here's a blurb from some Eliane Radigue liner notes:

David Behrman wrote:
In her music we traverse vast spaces, we hover over strangely-textured plains, we dive into dim caverns, we listen to our own internal voices. There is a feeling of time having almost stopped. The textures and pulsations are unearthly but intimate. In "Desert Plants" Zimmerman wrote that when John Cage spoke to him "he opened my eyes to see technology as something which can bring our attention back to nature." Eliane Radigue's music explores an expanded universe of which technology is a part. She has discovered things in electronic sound which powerfully affect our psyches.


And yet, with no less accuracy, every so often you'll see a YouTube commenter say something like: "It sounds like my fucking refrigerator."

As with much metal, I think of drone as a sort of experiment that plays with certain extremes in order to purposefully straddle the boundary between music on the one hand, monotonous, "punishing" noise on the other. "Just how brutal, primitive, violent, dark, etc. can we be, while still qualifying as music, which evokes a response and resonates with certain people, so that in certain moods they'll want to listen to us?" - If this is going to be the mentality of many extreme metal artists (especially in the early, exploratory days), then I think the mentality of many drone artists will be kind of similar: "Just how monotonous and unstructured can we be, while still qualifying as music?"

Meditation, as a spiritual or secular practice, has a similar quality (and drone can easily be thought of as a musical relative of meditation) - you sit motionlessly and face forward for long stretches of time while allowing your mind to wander (or while focusing intently on some basic, mundane sensation that ordinarily gets overlooked and relegated to the background; your breathing, for example, or the texture of your clothes) - just for the sheer appreciation of the experience. Again, evaluations range from Person A's: "This is utterly useless and boring and accomplishes nothing," to Person B's: "This is an inexhaustibly rich experience which reveals the miraculous in the mundane" (or something like that). Needless to say, A and B will probably never see eye-to-eye.

However, I'm not often in the mood for drone (or meditation, for that matter)... And my interest in the stuff does have limits. I saw some drone metal band on MA (I forget the name) with recordings in excess of 10 hours, which strikes me as over-the-top gimmicky and parody-like.

EDIT: The band I'm thinking of is Sabazius:
https://www.metal-archives.com/albums/S ... Man/368109
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BleedingMoon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:37 pm
Posts: 106
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:20 pm 
 
Meshuggah and Tool are the ones for me. Meshuggah toe the line a lot more but Tool are just King Crimson with heavier guitars.
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tahu157
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 pm
Posts: 1021
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 6:28 pm 
 
I saw someone describe Wagakki Band as a metal and I had to physically restrain myself.
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Rodman
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 984
Location: Sydney, Australia
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:18 pm 
 
Gatekeepers are those who strive to keep normies out of their scene in order to maintain their inflated sense of elitism.

'Speaking up' when people refer to Bon Jovi as metal isn't gatekeeping. It's educating people who obviously don't know what they are talking about. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

It would be nice if more people knew what is and isn't metal. I've wasted many an hour at record fairs sifting through the METAL crates, hopelessly flipping through long discarded Aerosmith and Poison LPs in the hope of finding a Nuclear Assault OP.
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Wrldeatr
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:13 pm
Posts: 382
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:47 pm 
 
funeralravens wrote:
Wrldeatr wrote:
Dark Tranquillity. They were metal once though.

What are they now?


Heck if I know. Melodic post rock? At most.
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greywanderer7
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:37 pm
Posts: 174
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 11:09 pm 
 
BleedingMoon wrote:
Meshuggah and Tool are the ones for me. Meshuggah toe the line a lot more but Tool are just King Crimson with heavier guitars.


Surprised it took this long to mention Tool, with which I wholeheartedly agree.

Also, Boris. They're cool, sometimes brilliant even, and they can also be really heavy, but, like Swans, I feel they're heavy in a non-metal way.
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traxan
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:52 pm
Posts: 1438
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 12:58 am 
 
SanPeron wrote:
Thexhumed wrote:
I do agree though with Drone, how's that metal?


I think that I'd rather hammer my balls than listen to a full Sunn O))) album.


You and me both, bruh. I don't get the appeal of that shit at all.

Funny thing is I saw a lengthy interview with the band leader and he came off as extremely intelligent and well spoken. And yet he makes that noise.
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Ace_Rimmer
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 4730
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:31 am 
 
SanPeron wrote:
If Shout at the Devil is a metal album, then Appetite for Destruction is a metal album too.

Another band that could fit that definition of metal is Kiss.


No way, the riffs on Shout are much more metallic than Guns. Guns is more distorted ballsy Stones influenced rock and roll. Crue has driving crunchy heavy metal riffs on most of the songs on the first two, and then even later albums would have pure metal stuff like the title track to Dr Feelgood. I love Guns but they are just a hard rock band in the purest sense of the term.
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yungstirjoey666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:47 am
Posts: 644
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 2:35 pm 
 
Also how do you guys feel about Rage Against the Machine being labeled as a metal band (rap metal in particular)? I think they're somewhat "metalloid" like how I view most other nu/core bands, but the line can get blurry, MA standards or not.
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Gravetemplar
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:08 am
Posts: 4693
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:25 pm 
 
greywanderer7 wrote:
BleedingMoon wrote:
Meshuggah and Tool are the ones for me. Meshuggah toe the line a lot more but Tool are just King Crimson with heavier guitars.


Surprised it took this long to mention Tool, with which I wholeheartedly agree.

Also, Boris. They're cool, sometimes brilliant even, and they can also be really heavy, but, like Swans, I feel they're heavy in a non-metal way.

Boris have a lot of stuff that isn't metal. They also have stuff that is 100% metal.


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pp3088
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:13 pm
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 4:58 pm 
 
People that thinks there is no way drone can be metal, please refer to the great Burning Witch. It has absolutely metal riffs, played slowly. They mix it with sludge, but this the only way to play drone metal correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugDT_5wxSpo
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 5200
Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 5:33 pm 
 
yungstirjoey666 wrote:
Also how do you guys feel about Rage Against the Machine being labeled as a metal band (rap metal in particular)? I think they're somewhat "metalloid" like how I view most other nu/core bands, but the line can get blurry, MA standards or not.


It's crazy to me that Rage Against the Machine can be considered anything but rock. Like, they are quintessential 90's rock. If anyone wants to throw in an "alternative" before rock, that works too. They also share a ton of elements with nu metal, which should really be considered it's own thing rather then a subgenre of metal.

I quite enjoy RATM, they are very heavy, hard hitting and they have some killer tracks. And yeah, this kind of music is definitely "metal adjacent", but I still think they are much more obviously on the rock side of the equation.
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gold_dino
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:26 pm
Posts: 5
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:53 pm 
 
Hardworlder wrote:
Auch wrote:
Hardworlder wrote:
Nobody said Ghost yet?


Too easy almost haha.

They do fall in line with my current annoyance though, which is that Sleep Token band. Like Ghost, they have an aesthetic that feels metal to many people and unlike Ghost, they will occasionally use distorted guitars or distorted vocals but as we all know, that doesn't make them metal. They also like to jump between genres / styles between songs or even within songs, which can give a sense of "complexity," which I also think makes people ant to call them metal because those tendencies don't seem like a thing a mainstream rock band would do. But honestly, they're just a heavy alternative rock band who are influenced by prog rock, hip-hop, electronic genres, and (yes) a little bit of metal. The vocalist has that over-affected Hozier voice and then the music has a lot going on to ultimately do nothing.

There's a slew of these bands popping up all over TikTok. Sleep Token is one, Bad Omens is another. I'm sure there are plenty more.


If you really want to annoy sleep token fans just say that they're basically imagine dragons with breakdowns.


This is so spot on I don’t see how any sleep token fans could argue it! I came here to say sleep token myself, you guys beat me to it. It’s painful that folks consider it metal.
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Metal Shark
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:54 am
Posts: 1087
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2024 12:28 am 
 
sjal wrote:
Rammstein. This band was quite popular and some people called it "metal" just because the music sounded "heavy" (I don't like their style at all and didn't want this band to be associated with metal genres in any way).


Agreed! Just annoying industrial-rock. Terrible!
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David_Brent
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:33 am
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2024 5:42 am 
 
Babymetal is the most obvious one for me

Then again Motörhead feels absolutely metal to me, and while most agree AC/DC isn't metal I think at the very least they are somewhat related.
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