Yeah it was meant as a joke about putting a picture of face on dartboard and start playing the game... "You" meaning them who partake the thing.

It's perfectly possible it isn't a malicious thing. The whole saga did start as an actual crowdfunding deal (so far as the record shows...?) but then morphed into this "it's not crowdfunding, I'm just pushing an overpriced product on you instead so it's a fair exchange" version of it after the initial backlash, so it's easy to lose track of whatever nuance is there and see the whole affair in a scam-colored light. Calling him a perfectionist is an understatement (no one needs a Hollywood CGI studio to record folk metal), but I'm sure part of the endless push for The Time Shrine is so that he can go from being a musician to a producer or whatnot, a studio owner who can rent out....time....to other artists and have an extra income stream set up for himself. It's a decent situation to be in if you can get there. And really it's the sort of thing that no one would even think negatively about if he hadn't gone about it in such a bizarre and sketchy way, but because of the fumbling and seemingly empty promises and mixed messages for so many years, it's all now looked on with suspicion.

Same feeling here. I'm not going to drop €50 on a digital package, but those who want to can do so. It is ludicrous to demand a studio for a band with just two albums at the time, but Jari has been open enough about this. See the long list of posts in the original post of this thread. And he made it clear he was aiming for three campaigns when the first one launched.

I'm curious to see how this one will go, but he only needs half of the backers this time around.

But why would a guy who wants to support Jari use his face as a dartboard?

I think what the poster was getting at was people having buyer's remorse after buying THE PACKAGE.

Oh, now I get it! "And you wonder where all the money went", of course! I feel almost as stupid as the people who pre-order THE PACKAGE inevitably will feel. Almost.

Here is the trailer for the Time Package. It includes sound clips of Time II along with sound clips of other material.



I am not going to lie. The clips of Time II songs sound amazing.

The page/campaign/pre-order is live.

• Many versions of Time II, similar to what he did with The Forest Seasons
• Different version of The Forest Seasons
• 5 hours of old demotracks

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/wint ... -package#/

So funny that they're trying to build up as much possible hype for their music when that style stopped being relevant years ago.

The release date is going to be August 30th according to the Indiegogo page.

"The downloads will be delivered on the official release date, August 30th."

ngl I only follow Wintersun for the drama, but the tidbits on that trailer actually sound damn good, they reminded me of all the good stuff from Iron.

5h worth of demos and multiple mixes on the same album, though? Hahahh sheeeit man, is it that hard to commit to anything? This does support the theory that he never intended to be a conman all along, he just can’t bring himself to finish stuff.

At the time of typing, they're already 27% funded, which is insane! I guess people are willing to put their shady history aside?

Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but I'll be buying this package through Indiegogo. I do like their albums even if I haven't listened to them for some time, and it looks like they are releasing some 2 - 3 albums worth of stuff over and above Time II. Though I'm pretty sure the additional remastered material like the The Forest Seasons (bought that package back then too) and Time II instrumentals etc will never be opened and just sit in my hard drive.

Fuck me the buzzwords in that video. Everything has to be super duper high quality ultra modern hi fi remastered ultra detailed this no compromises that....just release a fucking album.

And none of those clips of Time II sounded like an album that needed over a decade's worth of work to actually finish.

Looking at his sales copy, Jari definitely spent a good chunk of this time studying internet marketing. A lot of the formatting, layout and structuring of the messages are very similar to what you see on various sales pages advertising an online product/service. I recognize a good bit of it from my own time studying it with a few business and marketing mentors over the years. All the way to showing a BOX of the Time Package, meanwhile it's just a digital product (but the box graphic gives it a define image, and thus more perceived value).

And with how they're doing this pre-order as a 'direct from the band' endeavor as opposed to through a record label, I wouldn't be surprised if Jari plans on ditching Nuclear Blast once their initial contract is up and ends up making Wintersun a fully independent band. Given the response so far, he'll probably succeed, whether you like it or not. How long it would last and how personally profitable it ends up being, obviously TBD. How much profit goes to Jari VS the others, also to be determined but I anticipate the other guys won't get much - they've been largely quiet IIRC and just look like they're reading a teleprompter.

The musical samples DO sound pretty good though. 5 albums worth of remastered demos also is at least giving you more bang for your buck, and at least he's making use of this fucking "semi-studio" that he's whined about for years. I don't care at this point, but for fans of the band, I can see them being stoked by them - if it were Agalloch demos, I'd definitely be stoked.

I'm not giving this guy a fucking dime, but I do think I'll check out the album when it releases. I doubt it'll be better than the new Aquilus, but I gotta admit - I've got some morbid curiosity about this record. I'll find a stream.

On an unrelated note, why does Jari look like a snarling gremlin every time he does one of these videos? It's like Kenneth Copeland being a televangelist while looking like absolute Satan.

No hate on anyone who buys this know what they're getting and going into and feels ok giving their money to Jari. It's the fans bending over backwards to justify what he's doing or pretending like he didn't do anything off-putting or sketchy that I don't get.

That all said - holy shit you're getting a lot here. I know a good amount of it is stuff that only Jari cares about, and so he assumes his fans care about even though only a small amount do or will appreciate it (the same album with three different mixes, the instrumental versions, the isolated tracks, the remastered Forest Seasons which probably is minimally different to 99% of fans), but 5 hours of demos if you're a die-hard is pretty enticing and cool. Hopefully whatever is coming out in April is of a similar type and level as those.

I won't buy this, but I'm a Blut Aus Nord fanboy, so if Vindsval told me that if I pre-ordered an album and paid extra but got 5 hours of previously unreleased tracks and demos, both original recordings and remastered to match modern expectations, I'd be throwing money at him so fast my head would spin. So I get why Wintersun superfans would be excited about that and it does make me respect Jari a little more in that he knew he had to give fans something cool (whether out of appreciation or just to guarantee they'd buy it, I don't really care what the motivation is), and I think that those 5 hours delivers to an extent.

Urgh. I've been very vocal about Jari's shenanigans, but I am still a fan of his music. The new clips sound great (although the production doesn't sound like decades worth of bullshit), and five hours of demos has got me unfortunately considering ordering it. What a plot twist.

It's bizarre that he needs all this time and extra investments to do what other bands can do easily in their bedroom, but yeah, this campaign in itself is transparent. You pay €50 and get already recorded music. I'm not backing but will buy the album when it releases in CD. My way to show my support for Nuclear Blast who had to deal with Jari's ideas.



I sure hope not. With his preference of digital over physical releases he'd likely wouldn't bother with releasing CD's, and I'm not buying pure digital albums. Labels can also provide support regarding sales of merchandise, setting up tours. If Jari wishes to focus on more music he's best suppoted by someone who knows what they're doing.

I can't be the only one who gets flashbacks of Virgin Steele's Seven Devils Moonshine here.

… and in half a day they have collected 100k.

Holy shit, I was wrong. Already more than 100k.

On another note, is Jari stupid? Those demos sound decent, he could have simply released them as normal albums if he actually worked on them. He would be swimming in cash by now if he was actually releasing the music instead of fooling around for decades.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that $54 for five hours worth of demos plus, obviously, Time II and all the other stuff is not... a bad deal... As much as I don't want to support Jari's shenanigans, especially since this "semi-studio" is clearly able to satisfy his absurd demands for music production equipment to the point where he was finally able to produce Time II in a manner that satisfied his absurd expectations, the only thing stopping me from getting this right now is the fact that I don't have $54 lying around. It looks like I will have until April 30th to cough it up though. Ugh...

Well, guess they showed us "haters". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I admit that THE PACKAGE is better this time and most likely worth the money to a Wintersun fan guy.

I do have to admit that the samples of Time II sound good, at least in terms of writing. The drums are way too machine-like again, though.

Watching Jari talk the way he does is painful enough, but I guess my interest is kinda coming back a bit.

You're totally right about that. But, will the obvious success of these campaigns go to his head, to the point where he believes he can do it all himself? Or will he keep some sort of wits about him and realize that having a team actually helps your success?

TIME will tell

I think these are pretty reasonable takes. His communication sucks and he's lacked a lot of transparency throughout this whole fiasco, but Jari is not Blake Judd.

On that note,



I don't think Jari's stupid. If the above takes are correct, he's just so perfectionistic that he can't release anything he doesn't consider....well.... perfect.

I actually just went back to that video because I didn't realize it had soundclips of the demos, and I full on agree - they sound really good and could've been released as albums. Grittier, yeah, but I don't think many people would've complained. Hell, they'd probably dig it - I kinda do! Make album production shitty again!

As opinionated as I am about what this guy has done (and is still doing), that's actually a fairly well put together package. Definitely more substantial than the first offering.

Yeah most producers / mixers will tell you that there’s a point where the mix is as good as it’s going to get and the law of diminishing returns kicks in. I’m not sure what Jari’s process is but it probably involves a good deal of effort wasted on obsessing over details that won’t make the songs sound any better. I mean, he’s been pretty open about hating the sound of Time I. It’s fine.

"After countless of challenges" we still couldn't be bothered to proofread our motion graphics. So much for Jari's perfectionism.

The new songs sound awful as expected. The demos sound pretty interesting as expected, especially since they predate the glurgey layering that made Time and Forest Seasons unbearable to listen to. Some flecks of what made early Ensiferum so good in there. Not gonna buy it but I will happily give all the demos a listen via my favorite p2p tracker.

If this crowdfunding ends up going well, then that would be insane. With that said, though, given all the shadiness and controversies, I wouldn't really call it a "true" comeback, since from what I've heard from the snippets, the album's most likely going to be underwhelming to say the least.

Internet outrage really a momentum-based thing. I get Jari's a borderline grifter but you'd think he's as bad as Dagon or something the way people talk about him sometimes. His antics are basically harmless.

Sounds like, uhh, Wintersun. Drums sound fake as fuck but I wasn't dropped on my head enough as a child to expect natural sounding drums in Wintersun.

I mean, yeah, Jari's far from the worst person involved in metal. His antics are just goofy and dumb and fun to talk about. The man simply has an ego (which isn't that rare among musicians and artists). The horrific shit Dagon did isn't exactly fun to talk about (for obvious reasons).

"Legendary" demos, eh?

I remember downloading leaks of the Immemorial and Lost Alone demos back in the mid-2000s while waiting on Time. I remember there being some good music but his vocals weren't as well developed in the '90s. If this came out a decade and a half ago I'd be going nuts. Interesting to see some of the Immemorial stuff made the cut, but some didn't. I wonder how he decided that?

I will say 5 hours of demos is way more than I expected. And there's a lot of unique tracks there - my biggest worry was it would just be like 8 versions of Time demos or something. Still, nearly $75 CAD for digital tracks isn't my bag. I'll stick with the label's release. If he put the demos out in a big booklet a la Darkthrone's The Frostland Tapes, I could be convinced to part with more of my money. Hell, I spent a good chunk on the Ensiferum demos on eBay in the late 2000s, and that was only one hour of music.

Based on the samples on this new promotional video, I'll be checking out the album when it gets a general digital release, though I'm 50/50 on whether I'll splurge on a physical CD copy should one be released. As one of the defenders of Wintersun's music who is generally uninterested in the drama surrounding the band, it'll probably get a good review from me, better than The Forest Seasons and probably equal to what I gave Time I, if not slightly higher. Jari will probably never top the Wintersun debut because that album came from a place of pure intuition, whereas his subsequent works have been methodically planned out to a fault.

I personally never thought the guy was a grifter, but rather an extreme perfectionist, particularly when it comes to production. As such, everything that deviates even a little from his "vision" sounds like utter shit to his ears. Granted, one man's perfection is another man's mechanical drudgery, but I've worked with people like this in the past, they'll have dozens of great ideas over the course of a few weeks and never finish any of them because they think it's all crap. That said, I've never given any money to Jari's crowd-funding efforts, nor do I ever plan to do so, mostly because as someone who has been frustrated working with unproductive perfectionists, I don't have faith in Jari's ability to finish things in a timely fashion.

Whatever happens, I look forward to hearing the new album and judging it on its musical merits.

The story behind this album makes me mourn the loss of that old idea that people make meaningful music to make an artistic statement of some sort. That there is a case of severe perfectionism at work is perhaps the most favourable estimation of the situation at hand.

Over twice their goal already with 27 days left.

57 even. The campaign will run until 30 April and the Package will be expanded on 1 April. The page says 31 March, Jari says 30 April. Was the same with the first campaign.

And I'm going to continue to give Jari all my money even if I go broke!

Me and the boys on our way to take out loans to continue to fund Time II

Oh jeez you're right...