Again with this shit?

Well, in order to listen to the music you have to accept that you should seperate the art from the artist, Varg did an amazing job with atmospheric black metal and we can't deny it. And also as long as you don't support his actions for me it's okey, like, it's not because your favourite film has a murederer that you'll obviously kill someone.

Yeah, there are definitely some posters on this site who sure seem to be real into bands full of reprehensible people but are Definitely Just Here for the Music.

It really feels like the Metal Archives is starting to turn into a Nazi bar.

Metal Archives has, for years and years, had a community that doesn't get particularly fired up about unsavory politics in music. This isn't Reddit.

Yeah, unless the album itself is about national socialism I don't really care about the artist politics all that much.

Of course you're quoting a guy with a link to a fan club for a band who's founding member murdered a gay man for being gay so...

Varg is an asshole, but as far as I've ever seen the music itself doesn't reflect that unlike some other actual NSBM bands.

why do you care?

Yes. HLTO is the most hypnotic black metal album released.

I think to some degree, some might... in the sense that, people can discover black metal through sketchy political affiliations or webgroups and then by proxy, be recommended a set of black metal bands to enjoy, and then they end up liking Burzum, but to be honest I think this happens way less than some people may believe.

Burzum is quite abstract from album 3 onwards, and even the 1st two records weren't exactly immediate in the same way RAC/punk/oi is... I don't really see black metal as that effective of a "recruitment" tool for people who are not affiliated with black metal or metal at least in some form to begin with. I don't think I've ever met a single person or talked to a single person who came out of nowhere to appreciate Burzum music that wasn't already discovering black metal in the first place on the genre's own merits strictly

Yeah, no.

I think that metal archives forum in general reflects the pluralism that is within the genre already, to a pretty accurate degree.

Because how can it be that one group of people accuse the forum of being full of so-called-NS-types that love records and bands that you would prefer that they hate, while another group of people accuse the forum of being full of so-called-SJW-types that love to bash records and bands that those other people would prefer that they love.... unless both sides were actually incorrect and living in some type of pseudo-reality?

If you ask my personal opinion, I don't think that the forum swings in either direction, it simply reflects the general array of ideas, preferences and opinions of the metal scene at large, and that includes both extremes and the majority of people somewhere in the middle

Once in a while I'll listen to what I acquired years ago whilst... y'know, sailing the high seas (yar har har!), but I'm not gonna spend money on the fucker's music.


I don't think it's turning into a "Nazi bar" really. Whenever someone says some really blatantly white supremacist shit, they immediately get ripped on by several other people.

I don't feel that exposing my ears to soundwaves is a moral problem to consider at length, so yeah, I still listen to Burzum.

I agree with this, and I think there's another issue that muddies the water.

The bottom line is that people have different lines for what's acceptable, and different ideas about what makes one a "nazi". Some people can separate the art from the artist, and some can't. IMO either is okay, but what's not okay is calling someone a nazi without a very good reason. It seems the vast majority here agree Varg is a scumbag.
Am I a nazi if I have the same views as him? Well...since he is/was a self avowed nazi, the answer is pretty obvious.
Am I a nazi if I buy his stuff but disagree with his views? IMO words mean things, and while this doesn't make you a nazi it may be fair to call you an enabler. With that said, some people will absolutely call you a nazi over this.
Am I a nazi if I hate his views, don't support him (yar matey) but still listen? IMO it's absurd to call someone a nazi for this, yet it still happens.
Now, Burzum may be a special case since the music doesn't advertise his views (at least that I'm aware of).

The answers to the questions above may be different for some people for other bands like say Absurd, whose lyrics do advertise the views.

Either way, I personally don't feel it's right to call someone a nazi purely over musical taste. Being a nazi is bigger and worse than the music you listen to.

I've been a metal fan since around 1996. Started digging into more obscure stuff in 2000. I've never listened to a full Burzum album in my life, and can't imagine I ever will. Actually, come to think of it, I can't even tell you the last time I heard a Burzum song. It's probably been 20 years.

Varg is a nazi, a real one I mean. But Burzum fans are mostly regular black metal fans. Burzum is one of the first black metal bands, at least in the Norwegian scene, and the impact that he had on music is gigantic. All the atmospheric stuff mixed with European folk music that black metal bands play today is kind of a Varg invention. And I know Quorthon and Bathory, before someone crucifies me for stating this, yes, I think both of them started that kind of sound, probably the first band of that style was Bathory with Blood Fire Death and Hammerheart.

And why is that? Is it because of Varg's bullshit or is music the problem?

This is where I'm at too. Bought Darkthrone A Blaze In The Northern Sky when it came out in '92 and naturally checked out all the big hitters after that, including Burzum.

always thought his vocals were annoying, him being a dipshit is just a cherry on top

Back in 2000, I was just starting to get into black metal (the usual gateway bands like Cradle, Dimmu, etc.) I had heard from Immortal and Darkthrone and really dug it, but the entire story of Varg just turned me off. I did decide to try once and I ended up downloading one of his ambient prison albums and just never looked back. Even though I've come to fully appreciate black metal and all its subgenres, I just feel no need to listen to this guy. No matter how classic/great his albums are considered.

I think this is the be all end all of this topic. Just like society the metal scene as well has polarized.
I'm probably not the only one tired of "person A screaming 'you disagree with me on one point so you are a nazi' to person B"
and "person B screaming 'you disagree with me on one point so you are a SJW' to person A"

No, you are not.

We seem to have been stuck at this point for a couple years now. It's a real pleasure.

Let's not fool ourselves. The fact that Varg burned down churches and killed a band member is a big part of why black metal became as popular as it did. People revel in it, just like they do with true crime, and to deny it is ridiculous.

Some do, but I would argue that a lot don't. I've known nobody in real life that thought Varg was anything but a turd, and only a few edgy dorks on the internet that thought he was cool. More often than not you see someone post a jacket with a Burzum patch that get's dogpiled by virtue signallers calling them a nazi.

Do you revel in the fact Jon killed a gay man? I sincerely doubt you do and probably, like me, enjoy Dissection because of the music.

To really understand what went down in Jon's case, you would have to read the court papers. It may be difficult for people to understand today, but their lawyers actually encouraged them to go with homophobia as a motive rather than Satanism, feared that the latter would result in higher penalties because of what was happening in Norway at the time. There is absolutely nothing in the MLO creed that discouraged homosexuality, if anything it encouraged it.

Having said that, the whole mythology surrounding Dissection is of course part of the attraction for many young people. It's transgressive, forbidden, dark... That's what black metal is all about. I also think there is a difference between being fascinated by a story like Jon's and encouraging that kind of behaviour. I think a lot of people feel the need to distance themselves by calling him an idiot because deep down they feel guilty for entertaining that side of themselves that is not morally acceptable. The famous psychologist Jung has written in great detail about this phenomenon.

Does it really make a difference if it was due to homophobia or satanism? If we're judging bands on shitty founders/members both Varg and Jon are murderers. Varg also happens to be racist, but we're just talking different types of garbage people at this point.

As far as being attracted to Dissection because of "darkess" I guess maybe some people are. I tend to think it's not many, but maybe I'm off base. I initially checked out Dissection because they're a classic black metal band. I liked them because they're on the more melodic side which is my preference. I didn't even know about the drama and "darkness" until years later because I genuinely don't care about it. I think we're sort of an outlying group here that will look up bands histories and such, a lot of people don't do that.

This is all anecdotal obviously, just my observations and opinions. No way to really know I suppose.

I think it is very difficult for an American to even fathom how big a cultural phenomenon black metal was in Scandinavia. Most of these albums were not even distributed in the US at the time. So basing your assumption about the genre's appeal around your own experience when you were totally isolated from the culture and likely found out about Dissection decades after it actually happened is misguided at best. That said, you're entitled to enjoy the band however you want.

The difference for me at least was that I always cared about Dissection's music much more than I cared about Jon's life. To be honest to this day I still don't know much about his case, all I know is he was a true Satanist and killed someone. On the other side, in the case of Varg, I think his persona was inseparable from Burzum and we all know his band and his story more linearly. To this day I still play Dissection's music and is probably one of the best if not the best black metal band. Burzum on the other hand, is not a band that aged so well musically. Especially those ambient atmospheric albums, they suck really hard.

I'm sorry but I can never accept a comparison between Burzum and Dissection, the first one is one of the most influential black metal bands in history with 4 albums that you can like more or less but they were absolutely unique and game changers in the black metal realm, and Dissection is fucking early In Flames but more pretentious and with shierks.

Comparing the distastefulness of the members, not the music.

I assumed we were talking about current listeners of said band since the topic is "DO you listen" not "DID you listen". Talking about who listened to it 30 years ago seems misguided at best considering the topic.

Totally fair opinion, but I think it's also totally fair for people to say they don't care about Jon or Varg and just like the music.

Dissection is much easier on the ears due to the vocals, Varg's tortured shrieks can be pretty hard to get past. Plus the musicianship on Dissection was higher and the music more melodic.

Not only the vocals, the music was super accessible too, specially Reinkaos

Never heard that one but The Somberlain is a pretty accessible listen with some great melodies and riffs. I surprisingly have not spent a lot of time on Storm.

I am listening to The Somberlain right now and this is so much better than everything Varg has made in his career. What an absolute gem of an album, for fans of metal in general not only for black metal fans.

I will agree with that but I am not a big Burzum fan and have only listened to his second album in any real amount. I go back to The Somberlain much more.

Don't get me wrong I like Burzum for what it is. But Dissection is on another level, they picked up the flag where Bathory left it. One of a kind band.

Burzum was pretty mediocre, there were tons of better 90s bands: Mayhem, Emperor, Ulver, Darkthrone, Blut aus Nord, Dissection... if you take the controversy out of Burzum you end up with almost nothing.

Yet, of all those names above, none has made something like Det Som En Gang Var.

Sadly, some of those bands have made records as mediocre as Det Som En Gang Var, yes.