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Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1516
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:58 am 
 

I think it's worth raising a distinction in terms of what we mean by "hostility" here when we refer to whatever backlash exists. In my experience, outside of a few outliers, I've not seen much overt hostility to queer folks as such. But what people do seem to object to is having to extend "not actively fucking with people" to "creating a happy welcoming inclusive space where everyone's differences are celebrated". The trend appears to be to confuse the lack of the latter with evidence of the former, which I dont think is quite correct. When your social context is built around a sort of free-floating hostility and conscious subversion of "humanistic" norms, as I'd argue that much Black and War metal is, its a bit logically inconsistent and far fetched to expect that that scene is going to place much of a premium on people's comfort.

Which is ironic in a way because "the other" really extreme subculture - Noise/Industrial/power-Electronics,and adjacent scenes like Neo-folk and Martial-industrial, has had a long history of queer involvement which is largely unremarked internally. From an outside perspective gay nazis in SS camouflage uniforms might seem a contradiction but nobody seems to care much.

Which again reinforces my point that whatever objection exists is less about queer people as such and more about tolerance/inclusion/diversity being at odds with the underlying ethos of elitism/intolerance/hostility. The case of Death in June which I allude to above is illustrative - lots of people you'd not expect to be fans (from the Black/War metal scene) are because he's a hardline anti-egalitarianist fetishizing military aesthetics. You can suck as much dick as you like and people will not object as long as your lyrical standpoint is strident and harsh enough.....but write a song like the Kreator one about positivity and changing society for the better and watch people retch in the aisles.
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 5570
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:38 am 
 

one pretty much universal trait in the heavy metal subculture as a whole is that it strives for being ones own master and this leads to a lyrical approach that won't focus as much on changing the world. Now metal is of course often socially conscious and critical but its generally more of a "we stand above these issues/we are better than them" fashion.

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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
Posts: 2905
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:27 am 
 

SweetLeaf95 wrote:
Interesting you bring it up, because I actually just finished reading a book on the culture of heavy metal that was released in the early 2000s (I think). It mostly talked about the lifestyle that was common in the eighties and nineties, which at the time, I think LGBT was far less acceptable in the community.


To be fair, "back in the day," nearly every segment of society was not particularly welcoming or friendly to LGBTQ people. Some segments now are still gratuitously bad for them. Pretty much any religion and Republicans, for instance.
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Ontsarguiz
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:33 pm
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:24 pm 
 

Toxic masculinity is bullshit because alot of the traits that (presumably) define it aren't inherently bad/negative since it depends all on context, which of course gets ignored.
Then again neither homophobia or violence are an exclusively male trait. But that's just obvious.

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lost_wanderer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 4:59 pm
Posts: 312
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:56 pm 
 

Ontsarguiz wrote:
Toxic masculinity is bullshit because alot of the traits that (presumably) define it aren't inherently bad/negative since it depends all on context, which of course gets ignored.
Then again neither homophobia or violence are an exclusively male trait. But that's just obvious.



In which context sexual harrassment or rape could be good? Or to think women are inherently inferior?
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Ontsarguiz
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:33 pm
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:30 pm 
 

Ummm... No, I don't think women are inherently inferior, that's a stupid question actually. And yeah, not even sexual harrassment or rape are exclusively male trait. Since violence is included in the traits of "toxic masculinity" I think it's important to distinguish between deliberate violence and violence used as self defence (or defence of others). Sometime is even needed in jobs like police forces etc, so you know it depends on the context. But the fact is that not even violent behaviours are an exclusively male trait.

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~Guest 282118
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:32 pm 
 

Didn't you get banned a while ago for pulling this schtick? What makes you think it's gonna work now?

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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:33 pm 
 

Nothing about "toxic masculinity" is exclusively male, and if you think that is what the term implies in any way you have completely missed the mark. Anyway, this has literally nothing to do with the topic of this thread so maybe you should leave it alone or else you'll get banned again? :lol:
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Ontsarguiz
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:33 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:46 pm 
 

Well, if all comes down to "don't write or I'll ban you" I guess, k. (that ban was also kind of ambiguos anyway)
But after all I stated my opinion, if you have no valid argument, whatever.

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~Guest 282118
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:25 pm 
 

You lack even the most basic understanding of the topic at hand. There isn't anything to argue against.

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Ontsarguiz
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:33 pm
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:15 am 
 

You lack the ability to make look this fallacious concept less inconsistent than how already is. I've explained why it's inconsistent and I don't want to repeat myself.

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joppek
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Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
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Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:07 am 
 

Ontsarguiz wrote:
I've explained why it's inconsistent


what you have done is shown that you misunderstand the term "toxic masculinity"
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Pichushkin
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:41 am
Posts: 165
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:55 am 
 

I know we’re not susposed to derail but I don’t want to start a thread because I’m sure it would be locked fairly quickly, but with regards to Arghoslent, I really really enjoy their music. I know I’m not the only one, and it pisses me off that such musically talented individuals ruin what is a genuinely good band with their really shitty lyrics. The Nubian Archer has 2 of the best solos I’ve heard in 1 song but it sucks having to defend listening to them because of the lyrical content. It’s quite a conondrum. I’m a sucker for riffs, solos & melody. It’s fucking shameful. Such talent ruined by shitty ideologies.
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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1534
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:26 pm 
 

I like how in his attempts to say that toxic masculinity is bullshit, he ends up just defining the traits of toxic masculinity. Yeah, it's mostly stuff that in certain contexts is OK, that's kind of the point. It's certain aspects of "masculinity" that have been twisted and become toxic, hence the name.

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RakdosWarlord
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:26 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:00 am 
 

I often wonder why we don't hear much about toxic femininity when women are really cruel to each other. Honestly I wish people would label shitty behavior as just shitty behavior but that's just me.

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joppek
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:40 am 
 

RakdosWarlord wrote:
I often wonder why we don't hear much about toxic femininity when women are really cruel to each other. Honestly I wish people would label shitty behavior as just shitty behavior but that's just me.


because usually when women are cruel to other women, it has nothing to do with femininity. guys can also be assholes without any masculinity involved (toxic or otherwise). also, women can exhibit toxic masculinity just the same as men, tho' obviously that's not as common

there's a lot of different types of shitty behaviour, and people like to categorise things :)
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hakarl
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 8817
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:26 am 
 

RakdosWarlord wrote:
I often wonder why we don't hear much about toxic femininity when women are really cruel to each other. Honestly I wish people would label shitty behavior as just shitty behavior but that's just me.

Toxic masculinity is singled out, because it's a very noticeable and dominant form of toxic behaviour, accentuated by the male-centric culture that we live in. Many of the toxic masculine attitudes are passed down from parents and educational institutions (whether or not their primary function is nominally education), and by being able to recognise it, we should be able to reduce it as well.

Bullying in general remains a different, but also important struggle that our societies should tackle, but let's not descend into whataboutism. Certainly there are many kinds of toxic behaviour, and any of them may be equally damaging, but toxic masculinity is widespread, deeply rooted, and highly detrimental, and therefore deserves to be recognised and fought as a separate entity.

As a disclaimer, the society I live in is only partly male-dominated. Our educational system is predominantly shaped and lead by women. Now that I'm an adult, I'm beginning to see how it has affected my worldview - both positively and negatively - and I can also see some of the failures of that system in properly engaging boys and children with masculine behaviours. That kind of system, in my experience, does not lead into problems with "toxic femininity", but indeed, through some of the recurrent failures to engage a quite significant demographic, it can exacerbate toxic masculinity in various ways. Funny, that.

joppek is corrent in that toxic masculinity is not a strictly gendered issue. People of any gender can espouse it, and when they do, its not strictly the fault of men and their behaviours either.
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AddWittyUsername
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:40 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:47 am 
 

RakdosWarlord wrote:
I often wonder why we don't hear much about toxic femininity when women are really cruel to each other. Honestly I wish people would label shitty behavior as just shitty behavior but that's just me.

Among other reasons, because when speaking of "toxic masculinity", what masculinity refers to in that case really is "social gender norms and expectations of male behaviour", not "male behaviour in general", and the feminine counterparts of those norms and expectations still largely tend towards passivity, caring and nurturing, none of which lend themselves strongly to conflict. (Indeed, at the core, female gender norms are traditionally about either avoiding or resolving conflicts)

That's not to say feminine gender norms are better--their harmfulness is just directed otherwise and less in-the-face confrontational, but the core issue of both sets of norms is their restriction of behaviour based on gender not personality. Another point is that although feminine gender norms still exist, there have been several waves of feminism to diminish the degree to which women are forced to hold themselves to them and thus their extremes at least are less pervasive than the extremes of masculine gender norms.

And yes, shitty behaviour is shitty behaviour, but deep-seated patterns of shitty behaviour do have deeper causes than "someone behaving shittily" and without acknowledging the cause of the issue and looking for ways to resolve that, there's going to be an endless stream of someones behaving shittily.

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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 183
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:20 am 
 

Bingewolf wrote:
it's not uncommon to come across prejudice scum


Unlike yourself ;-P just because someone doesn't approve or like something, for whatever reason, bad experiences, prejudice, religion, whatever, labeling them scum, without actually knowing their reasons makes you pretty ignorant yourself. Do you only have friends who agree on everything? It's the same simplistic outlook that some of the people you call scum have really.

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dmerritt
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 338
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:52 pm 
 

TheLoneForest wrote:
The only issue I have with it is that bands can talk and lyricize about killing infants and raping god knows what, and people look to it as "lol brutal", but as soon as a band that espouses National Socialism or wanting to preserve traditions and whatnot, everyone goes bat shit crazy.

It's the age old question of seperating the artist from his music. People will talk on Varg all they want and lie about what he has to say and create a false impression, while at the same time defending the "shock" in a lot of grindcore/brutal death metal bands as "br00tal man !!"

Personally I don't give a shit what the band does or thinks or writes in their lyrics, or how they live their lifestyles, but I am willing to point out the hypocrisy that if a band is remotely right wing in their lyrics the community regards them as being "evil" for legit nothing



Indeed. And it wasn't Varg that created some sort of anti-alternative sexuality sentiment in metal. His music is not political. Honestly, neither is most NSBM. I mean, if a band's lyrical themes consist of exalting in native traditions and landscapes (in other words, nationalistic in an apolitical sense), or if they have a very prideful and pagan feel to their music, or if their lyrical themes consist of Heideggerian philosophy or something of that nature, they're going to be called Nazis. The vast majority of what's called NS is not Hitlerian or openly political in any sense. Now, if critics want to go down the whole personal history and political affiliation rabbithole, the problem is that it's usually coming from Westerners looking admonishingly at Eastern European bands. This is a particularly arrogant Western trait - applying our moral and political standards to others, and it appears especially arrogant to me when those attitudes are being directed against people from countries that have actually endured Communism! I just feel like telling some of these people that Estonians and Ukrainians are not going to have the same social and political sensitivities as Canadians, so do let's try to understand where people are coming from and get off your high horse.

No, if anyone in the scene created hostility toward gays, it would probably be guys like Nodveidt who murdered one for no reason! And nobody calls Dissection an NS band. Hell, they don't even call them homophobic! But I'd bet they are. And, if you start surveying the social opinions of bands from, say, Indonesia, I'm sure you'd hear many opinions that modern Westerners would consider transgressive.

By the way, has anyone considered the possibility that someone could be both gay AND a Nazi? I'm kinda making a joke here, but Gaahl definitely has some strong anti-egalitarian opinions.

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lost_wanderer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 4:59 pm
Posts: 312
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:22 am 
 

DBettino wrote:

Indeed. And it wasn't Varg that created some sort of anti-alternative sexuality sentiment in metal. His music is not political. Honestly, neither is most NSBM. I mean, if a band's lyrical themes consist of exalting in native traditions and landscapes (in other words, nationalistic in an apolitical sense), or if they have a very prideful and pagan feel to their music, or if their lyrical themes consist of Heideggerian philosophy or something of that nature, they're going to be called Nazis. The vast majority of what's called NS is not Hitlerian or openly political in any sense. Now, if critics want to go down the whole personal history and political affiliation rabbithole, the problem is that it's usually coming from Westerners looking admonishingly at Eastern European bands. This is a particularly arrogant Western trait - applying our moral and political standards to others, and it appears especially arrogant to me when those attitudes are being directed against people from countries that have actually endured Communism! I just feel like telling some of these people that Estonians and Ukrainians are not going to have the same social and political sensitivities as Canadians, so do let's try to understand where people are coming from and get off your high horse.

No, if anyone in the scene created hostility toward gays, it would probably be guys like Nodveidt who murdered one for no reason! And nobody calls Dissection an NS band. Hell, they don't even call them homophobic! But I'd bet they are. And, if you start surveying the social opinions of bands from, say, Indonesia, I'm sure you'd hear many opinions that modern Westerners would consider transgressive.

By the way, has anyone considered the possibility that someone could be both gay AND a Nazi? I'm kinda making a joke here, but Gaahl definitely has some strong anti-egalitarian opinions.



Are you okay with the talibans and the average people in Saudi Arabia? After all, they don't have the same sensibilities like Western Europeans. Maybe it's okay the way they treat women and lgbt people. Who are we to tell them what to do? You can call me an arrogant but I don't fall to that double standard argument. If it's not okay in Canada, it's not okay there too. Do you really think that people in those place have that kind of double standard? No, they think that the west is decadent and they will be happy if the west fall. Yes, some were gays and Nazi. One of the chiefs of the SA was gay but he was executed by Hitler. But I don't think it's the majority of the lgbt are Nazi because usually they are persecuted by them. Sure some are on the right economically but it's no different than cisgender heterosexual people.
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Ontsarguiz
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:33 pm
Posts: 27
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:21 am 
 

thrashinbatman wrote:
I like how in his attempts to say that toxic masculinity is bullshit, he ends up just defining the traits of toxic masculinity. Yeah, it's mostly stuff that in certain contexts is OK, that's kind of the point. It's certain aspects of "masculinity" that have been twisted and become toxic, hence the name.


I like how some bad behaivours (which *AGAIN* are not male exclusive) magically became "certain aspect of masculinity".
The point is is that those behaivours are not gender specific.


Last edited by iamntbatman on Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Let me give you an ambiguous warning: do not post about this subject again in this thread, or else I'll have to ambiguously ban you forever.

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DoomMetalAlchemist
Veteran

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:10 am
Posts: 2860
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:55 am 
 

Ontsarguiz wrote:

I like how some bad behaivours (which *AGAIN* are not male exclusive) magically became "certain aspect of masculinity".
The point is is that those behaivours are not gender specific.


I don't think you even know what masculine and feminine mean. Masculine and feminine traits don't have to be "exclusively male" or "exclusively female." You want "exclusively male" traits? Fine. Penis, testicles, sperm, testosterone. Am I missing any? There is literally no such thing as "exclusively male" or "exclusively female" personality traits or behavior patterns. But there are personality traits ASSOCIATED with each gender, which is generally a cultural thing. Whether they typically show themselves in one gender, or they are stereotyped in one gender culturally. "Toxic masculinity" deals with toxic traits ASSOCIATED with masculinity culturally. No one is kidding themselves thinking these traits and behaviors never apply to females.

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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 9094
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:48 pm 
 

Ontsarguiz wrote:
thrashinbatman wrote:
I like how in his attempts to say that toxic masculinity is bullshit, he ends up just defining the traits of toxic masculinity. Yeah, it's mostly stuff that in certain contexts is OK, that's kind of the point. It's certain aspects of "masculinity" that have been twisted and become toxic, hence the name.


I like how some bad behaivours (which *AGAIN* are not male exclusive) magically became "certain aspect of masculinity".
The point is is that those behaivours are not gender specific.


And once again, the point that has been driven home to you and hammered down over and over again that you seem to be missing somehow, is that everyone here is already saying that those traits are not gender specific or exclusive to any one gender. You're attacking a strawman argument that no one has presented in order to stroke your own ego, and it's quite pathetic.
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dmerritt
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 338
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:41 am 
 

lost_wanderer wrote:
DBettino wrote:

Indeed. And it wasn't Varg that created some sort of anti-alternative sexuality sentiment in metal. His music is not political. Honestly, neither is most NSBM. I mean, if a band's lyrical themes consist of exalting in native traditions and landscapes (in other words, nationalistic in an apolitical sense), or if they have a very prideful and pagan feel to their music, or if their lyrical themes consist of Heideggerian philosophy or something of that nature, they're going to be called Nazis. The vast majority of what's called NS is not Hitlerian or openly political in any sense. Now, if critics want to go down the whole personal history and political affiliation rabbithole, the problem is that it's usually coming from Westerners looking admonishingly at Eastern European bands. This is a particularly arrogant Western trait - applying our moral and political standards to others, and it appears especially arrogant to me when those attitudes are being directed against people from countries that have actually endured Communism! I just feel like telling some of these people that Estonians and Ukrainians are not going to have the same social and political sensitivities as Canadians, so do let's try to understand where people are coming from and get off your high horse.

No, if anyone in the scene created hostility toward gays, it would probably be guys like Nodveidt who murdered one for no reason! And nobody calls Dissection an NS band. Hell, they don't even call them homophobic! But I'd bet they are. And, if you start surveying the social opinions of bands from, say, Indonesia, I'm sure you'd hear many opinions that modern Westerners would consider transgressive.

By the way, has anyone considered the possibility that someone could be both gay AND a Nazi? I'm kinda making a joke here, but Gaahl definitely has some strong anti-egalitarian opinions.



Are you okay with the talibans and the average people in Saudi Arabia? After all, they don't have the same sensibilities like Western Europeans. Maybe it's okay the way they treat women and lgbt people. Who are we to tell them what to do? You can call me an arrogant but I don't fall to that double standard argument. If it's not okay in Canada, it's not okay there too. Do you really think that people in those place have that kind of double standard? No, they think that the west is decadent and they will be happy if the west fall. Yes, some were gays and Nazi. One of the chiefs of the SA was gay but he was executed by Hitler. But I don't think it's the majority of the lgbt are Nazi because usually they are persecuted by them. Sure some are on the right economically but it's no different than cisgender heterosexual people.


I suppose if you thought NSBM was just Skrewdriver with Black Metal riffing, maybe you could make this analogy to the Taliban. But when bands like Drudkh and Hate Forest are lumped into the NSBM label when there's absolutely nothing political or hostile to any ethnic group or sexual minority in their messaging, it sure seems like a stretch to me. I think you're missing my point. I was saying that when people call those bands NS, they're not referencing their music, but rather their political associations and personal history. I'm saying that the personal history and political affiliations of the members of bands like those are going to differ significantly in the Ukraine from the types of political associations the average person would have in the West. It's not exactly going to be very difficult to find Eastern Europeans who have personal associations with those of far right wing opinions, without actually having those opinions.

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k311250
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:14 am
Posts: 144
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:59 am 
 

DBettino wrote:
I suppose if you thought NSBM was just Skrewdriver with Black Metal riffing, maybe you could make this analogy to the Taliban. But when bands like Drudkh and Hate Forest are lumped into the NSBM label when there's absolutely nothing political or hostile to any ethnic group or sexual minority in their messaging, it sure seems like a stretch to me. I think you're missing my point. I was saying that when people call those bands NS, they're not referencing their music, but rather their political associations and personal history. I'm saying that the personal history and political affiliations of the members of bands like those are going to differ significantly in the Ukraine from the types of political associations the average person would have in the West. It's not exactly going to be very difficult to find Eastern Europeans who have personal associations with those of far right wing opinions, without actually having those opinions.

Hate Forest used to sell a shirt with the face of Roman Shukhevych who was a one-time ally of Nazi Germany and one of the organizers of the Halych-Volhyn massacre in which 100,000 poles were assassinated. I'm sorry but you are wrong about the "nothing political or hostile to any ethnic group or sexual minority" part of your post.

Image

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dmerritt
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 338
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:46 pm 
 

k311250 wrote:
DBettino wrote:
I suppose if you thought NSBM was just Skrewdriver with Black Metal riffing, maybe you could make this analogy to the Taliban. But when bands like Drudkh and Hate Forest are lumped into the NSBM label when there's absolutely nothing political or hostile to any ethnic group or sexual minority in their messaging, it sure seems like a stretch to me. I think you're missing my point. I was saying that when people call those bands NS, they're not referencing their music, but rather their political associations and personal history. I'm saying that the personal history and political affiliations of the members of bands like those are going to differ significantly in the Ukraine from the types of political associations the average person would have in the West. It's not exactly going to be very difficult to find Eastern Europeans who have personal associations with those of far right wing opinions, without actually having those opinions.

Hate Forest used to sell a shirt with the face of Roman Shukhevych who was a one-time ally of Nazi Germany and one of the organizers of the Halych-Volhyn massacre in which 100,000 poles were assassinated. I'm sorry but you are wrong about the "nothing political or hostile to any ethnic group or sexual minority" part of your post.

Image


Yes, but I'm arguing there's a difference between the political affiliations of band members and the messaging in their music. I am not a speaker of the language, so there might be some overtly political messaging in their music of which I'm unaware. This shirt speaks to the personal political opinions of the band members, and, again, I do think there is some grey area there. I did once read a bit about Shukhevych, and he actually wasn't the one who organized the massacre. He did not assume control of the OUN until after the violence had reached its climax. Also, while Poles in these regions were massacred by Ukrainians, tens of thousands of Ukrainians were also massacred by Poles. I'm sure there is other information I'm missing, here, but my point was that, not being natives or having a good understanding of ethnic conflicts or other geopolitical considerations with which many Ukrainians today are familiar, it's a bit short-sighted to dole out condemnation.

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mikeyson
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:47 pm
Posts: 40
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:55 pm 
 

I will ask, "On what basis should I care about these LGBT people in metal?" I say that without a standard by which to judge the good from the bad, the truth from the lies, all we have is propaganda, and I wish it to stay in the confines of crappy generic pretenders.

When I hear LGBT, what comes to my mind is a person obsessed with materialism. An obsession with perversion and what they are called. Should we also hold up foot fetishists as great overcomers of adversity?

I will not celebrate a community full of thought policing, mutilation, and brainwashing.


Last edited by Morrigan on Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User was banned permanently for blatant homophobia.

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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:56 pm 
 

mikeyson wrote:
When I hear LGBT, what comes to my mind is a person obsessed with materialism. An obsession with perversion and what they are called. Should we also hold up foot fetishists as great overcomers of adversity?



Then there's something horribly wrong with you and you're either a troll or an incredibly broken person. Either way, you should probably not post stuff like this because of how obviously terrible it is.
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lost_wanderer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 4:59 pm
Posts: 312
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:40 pm 
 

mikeyson wrote:
I will ask, "On what basis should I care about these LGBT people in metal?" I say that without a standard by which to judge the good from the bad, the truth from the lies, all we have is propaganda, and I wish it to stay in the confines of crappy generic pretenders.

When I hear LGBT, what comes to my mind is a person obsessed with materialism. An obsession with perversion and what they are called. Should we also hold up foot fetishists as great overcomers of adversity?

I will not celebrate a community full of thought policing, mutilation, and brainwashing.



On what basis should we care about a piece of shit like you? I'm sure your perverted yourself. Get bent.
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mikeyson
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:47 pm
Posts: 40
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:52 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:


Then there's something horribly wrong with you and you're either a troll or an incredibly broken person. Either way, you should probably not post stuff like this because of how obviously terrible it is.


I was hoping for the methods by which you determine why this is even bad? It's assumed I share your ethics when I clearly don't. Surely if something is true or good, it can stand a critique of its merits without crumbling from its own logic, or lack thereof.

I mean with your thinking, all of humanity premodernity (and even the majority today) must be broken, and i dont see how you arent subject to this same inherent flaw of brokenness. How did you somehow get out of the box of "ignorance" so many are trapped in?

I don't think we needed people obsessed with how they look, how they are identified, or how much sex they get with whatever gender they choose is going to show mankind the true ethical path. I fail to see even more why this should be discussed on a metal forums main board anyways.

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Sweetie
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:19 am
Posts: 1091
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:17 pm 
 

mikeyson wrote:
I fail to see even more why this should be discussed on a metal forums main board anyways.


Clearly you're trying to steer away from the point, seeing that this thread was specifically about LGBT in metal, and you're just trying to cover your bad argument by saying "yaknowwhat, this is irrelevant anyway". Like why bother commenting in the first place?
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lost_wanderer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 4:59 pm
Posts: 312
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:21 pm 
 

It's funny how you say that lgbt people are obsessed with material when they are frowned upon because they can't create a material being, (aka a human) when they are in couple. I am a transwoman and I made love to several men. I said love because I felt love and affection for them, not just sexual urges. I know some heterosexual cisgender men that treat women like objects. Who's the perverted here? Who's the most obssessed about the material? Certainly not me. You clearly don't know what are you talking about. If homophobes wheren't so obssessed with the lgbt commutities, we would not need to have lgbt prides and threads like that on forums.
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Invocation wrote:
True story: when I saw Ondskapt live the vocalist started the set by shouting "You are all worms beneath the feet of Satan!". Someone in the audience immediately shouted back "Fuck off mate!".

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 10528
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:37 pm 
 

Just so we're clear - blatant homophobia isn't permitted here. Like for racism and misogyny, I do not consider these "viewpoints" worth debating. I do not consider the humanity and dignity of women, minorities and LGBT people to be debatable. If you feel otherwise, feel free to fuck off to some alt-right cesspool somewhere. There's plenty of places like that all over the internet, but this ain't one of them.

HaPoStaPu wrote:
Unlike yourself ;-P just because someone doesn't approve or like something, for whatever reason, bad experiences, prejudice, religion, whatever, labeling them scum, without actually knowing their reasons makes you pretty ignorant yourself. Do you only have friends who agree on everything? It's the same simplistic outlook that some of the people you call scum have really.


No. There is no excuse in this day and age to be homophobic. Especially not someone with an internet connection.
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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 183
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:09 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Just so we're clear - blatant homophobia isn't permitted here. Like for racism and misogyny, I do not consider these "viewpoints" worth debating. I do not consider the humanity and dignity of women, minorities and LGBT people to be debatable. If you feel otherwise, feel free to fuck off to some alt-right cesspool somewhere. There's plenty of places like that all over the internet, but this ain't one of them.

HaPoStaPu wrote:
Unlike yourself ;-P just because someone doesn't approve or like something, for whatever reason, bad experiences, prejudice, religion, whatever, labeling them scum, without actually knowing their reasons makes you pretty ignorant yourself. Do you only have friends who agree on everything? It's the same simplistic outlook that some of the people you call scum have really.


No. There is no excuse in this day and age to be homophobic. Especially not someone with an internet connection.


To explore the reasons why people have issues with homosexuality isn't the same as excusing it. It's actually necessary if you want to change someone's mind to understand the reasons for their thinking. To simply call them scum, millions of people, large parts of the planet really, isn't exactly going to open them up to one's ideas. It's not really a great idea to lump everybody together either, there will be many different reasons as to why some have issues with homosexuality or sexuality as a whole (I'd argue that many people who hate homosexuality also have an issue with female sexuality, for example, and see women as a lesser), from growing up in Islamic, Christian, African, etc, cultures to psychological. Some, to apply the old stereotype, might even be gay but can't admit it (yet). People are complex. Someone a bit ignorant when it comes to one issue, sure you can label and see them as scum, but how you're going to get on with most of the population? (Not just meaning homosexuality here) :-p I can understand the frustration though, of course.

Not sure if the iternet is always a force for good as you can choose any information bubble you wish to and stay in it if you're so inclined.

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Oblarg
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Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:59 pm
Posts: 2974
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:52 am 
 

Quote:
To explore the reasons why people have issues with homosexuality isn't the same as excusing it. It's actually necessary if you want to change someone's mind to understand the reasons for their thinking. To simply call them scum, millions of people, large parts of the planet really, isn't exactly going to open them up to one's ideas.


You generally don't get people to abandon their homophobia by arguing with them over the internet, and we have no obligation to lower the quality of our forum experience by keeping these people around so that maybe they'll change their minds.
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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1534
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:24 pm 
 

Does anyone else find it weird to call someone out for "perversion" on a metal forum? We all aren't exactly bastions of traditional morality here.

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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 9094
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:31 pm 
 

Equating homosexuality with deviance or perversion (plenty of gays are pervs, but not because they are gay) is a classic bigot move straight from the medieval ages. It's old hat. Anyone that says something like that should be immediately called out on it.
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HaPoStaPu
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:20 am
Posts: 183
Location: Armenia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:07 am 
 

Oblarg wrote:
Quote:
To explore the reasons why people have issues with homosexuality isn't the same as excusing it. It's actually necessary if you want to change someone's mind to understand the reasons for their thinking. To simply call them scum, millions of people, large parts of the planet really, isn't exactly going to open them up to one's ideas.


You generally don't get people to abandon their homophobia by arguing with them over the internet, and we have no obligation to lower the quality of our forum experience by keeping these people around so that maybe they'll change their minds.


Sure, people can do what they want on their websites, they all do and they also make their own news channels, listening to the news that they wish to hear (is this sort of thing getting more extreme lately?), but, again, it's not all that helpful, nor does it make you look much better than the people that you have an issue with, if you label them all scum, even if there are millions of them, many different reasons and some might not even consciously choose to feel weird about homosexuality (as they were brought up that way, have issues with sex, might have issues with having gay phantasies but can't allow them due to their upbringing, religion, etc). It's just more generalizing, which we generally don't see as the way to go these days. I'm not a Jedi but it may well be the path to the darkside.

Currently, well, the article is from 2017, I looked it up out of interest, there are around 70 countries that outlaw homosexuality, I think 8 apply or can apply the death sentence, and it's legal in around 120 (which includes countries like Russia, so legal doesn't necessarily mean perfect for LGBT). It takes time but things are moving towards more tolerance.

But back to music, the only band I can think of right now is the Bad Brains (rastas), not sure if people ever really boycotted them.

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Oblarg
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Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:59 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:23 pm 
 

HaPoStaPu wrote:
it's not all that helpful, nor does it make you look much better than the people that you have an issue with, if you label them all scum, even if there are millions of them, many different reasons and some might not even consciously choose to feel weird about homosexuality (as they were brought up that way, have issues with sex, might have issues with having gay phantasies but can't allow them due to their upbringing, religion, etc). It's just more generalizing, which we generally don't see as the way to go these days. I'm not a Jedi but it may well be the path to the darkside.


You're missing the point. We don't want these people around because they're unpleasant and make the forums less-enjoyable for the rest of us. It has nothing to do with appearances. In that regard, it's plenty helpful.

If you think banning homophobes from a forum is "the path to the darkside," I don't know what to tell you. That's fucking stupid, bro.
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