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SweetSilence
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 pm
Posts: 569
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:35 pm 
 

Terri23 wrote:
Because the site owners decided that it be. That's it.

This is what it comes down to. It's not our website. I can't think of any good examples right now except for Coma Cluster Void. They are obviously, undoubtedly, unquestionably a metal band, and way heavier and "more metal" than plenty of other bands that are on here. I can only imagine the reason they aren't on here is because one the mods is "too metal" to accept them, or they simply don't like them. Whatever, at the end of the day it just lowers the sites credibility and integrity when it comes to being the end-all be-all encyclopedia of metal bands.
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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 5570
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:40 pm 
 

the reason why there is this ambiguous border between metal is most of all not because specific riffs are or arent metal but because bands combine metal and non metal riffs in a certain manner.
Makiladoras is death metal /crust punk i submitted to MA a while ago and they did this actually pretty unique thing of having literally 50% metal songs and 50% non metal songs pretty clearly distinct from each other. I haven't seen any other band do this. when it comes to borderline bands, instead they combine the metal and non metal in the songs themselves so you end up with stuff like slipknot where they have a death metal riff for like 20% of the songs run length but something decidedly not metal for the rest of it.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35277
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:46 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
I don't buy that it's not easily definable. Like any genre, it'll vary, but for the most part, by and large, metal is based on riffs that sound like the general kind penned by the bands that started the genre.


Yeah, but a black metal riff sounds nothing like a doom metal riff or a power metal riff. Genres evolve from each other and eventually blend elements from other genres and will eventually incorporate elements of non-metal genres.

I'm kind of with Zelkiiro on this one. When we get to the edges, what is it that really makes a genre metal and another not? Like why are people accepting deathgrind as more metal than deathcore. I personnaly feel that, even with the grindcore influences, deathgrind has enough of the keep elements of death metal to remain in the death metal area, while deathcore heavily focuses on breakdowns, chugging riffs and down-tuned heavy hardcore riffs that barely keep anything from death metal and doesn't qualify as metal anymore.

But when we start getting specific, as in... when we start talking specific bands, you'll notice that a lot of people disagree on if Between the Buried and Me, Despised Icon and others.

With nu-metal it's typically easier to say yes or no because of how stereotypical nu-metal usually is. The genre in itself didn't evolve much since the early 2000's and for the bands that did "evolve" they pretty much all moved further towards hard rock like Disturbed, Slipknot, Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit did. Nu-metal hardly ever had anything metal to start with, so it's way more clear cut when it comes to genre classification.


Eh, you can trace a lot of black metal back to Bathory, Celtic Frost, etc... that is also what I'd consider classic enough to be genre-forming. And they came from Sabbath and various other weird influences forming back in the 80s. I think it's all connected and you can hear it if you listen to enough. It isn't so mysterious.

Power metal, yeah, some of it can be quite light for metal, but most of it is pretty firmly based in obvious metal riffing, even if keys or vocals are more accentuated.

When you get away from that and into more harsh noise-type sounds or hardcore or hard rock or something, that's when it isn't metal. I suppose if you asked me to specify more, I would classify metal riffs as being typically aggressive and moving the song along in a fluid way, with little breaking up the guitars. There are other genres that do that, but metal typically focuses on a complex riff-writing style with a lot of melody and grandiosity and atmosphere, rather than being used solely as a blunt instrument all the time.

But all that's secondary to my simpler explanation from before, which applies to most metal I'd say - yeah it split off into different genres, but none of it is so different that they're not still under the umbrella of metal.

I think this site's opinions come into play sometimes - like with bands like Deep Purple or Rush. But I'd argue the reason those bands were included is because they have enough metallic songs to be counted. Others might disagree. That's where the debate comes in - but not something so large as "we just can't actively say what metal is at all."
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AddWittyUsername
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:40 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:38 pm 
 

Goatfangs wrote:
If only heavy metal were like bugs. Bugs are easy to identify. There are no bugs that crossover with mammals (although mantises act like cats sometimes) and the website Bugguide considers any arthropod a bug.

Heavy metal *is* a lot like bugs:
  • You'll have folks who consider any (terrestrial) arthropod a bug, following common non-scientific use of the term; (aka "well if it's called metal by the general public, let's include it");
  • But then you'll have the people who'll say "yeah but really only insects are bugs and not all terrestrial arthropods are insects" (aka "well there's some stuff that people throw under the metal umbrella that blatantly doesn't fit");
  • And then come the entomologists who say "well sure in common use of English, every terrestrial arthropod or at least every insect is a bug but from a taxonomic point of view, only the insects that fit the criteria of the order Hemiptera are actual bugs. Just because plenty of the vernacular names of non-Hemipterans include "bug" doesn't make them actual bugs any more than it makes a ladybird a bird. If it doesn't have the Hemipteran mouthpiece which defines the order, it's not a Hemipteran and thus not a real bug." (aka "just because people call it metal (whether the genre or a specific band) doesn't make it so. If it doesn't have metal riffs, it's not metal.");
  • And then you'll have other entomologists who will say "well yeah *most* scientists call all Hemiptera "true bugs", but the *real* "true bugs" are just those that belong to suborder Heteroptera, though the rest of the Hemipterans are closer to being true bugs than the rest of what folks call bugs" (you get the picture, I'm sure)

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ObservationSlave
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:27 pm
Posts: 1112
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:35 pm 
 

Lythronax wrote:
I'm another fan with music theory background who has no idea what the difference between a "metal riff" and a "non-metal riff" is. Hopefully someone eventually mades a Youtube tutorial or something on that exact topic.


This isn't a tutorial, but at least provides a few examples of both "metal" riffs and "rock" riffs.


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logrus
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:19 am
Posts: 5
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:56 am 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
Somar wrote:

My point is, you pick a classic Metal riff, you include some folk music influences and there you go, Folk Metal, people are like, "it's amazing", "how original" and so on.

You pick the exact same riff and put some rap singing in the middle and then it's Nu-Metal and suddenly it's forbidden.


May I have an example of this "classic metal riff with rap singing in the middle?"


Can't get more classic metal with a rapper than this:




















;-)

And more serious answers to yours question:




Those above are quite ancient, so some contemporary stuff:

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~Guest 372617
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:17 pm
Posts: 36
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:16 pm 
 

Everyone has made some pretty good points in this thread.

I'll try to take a shot at it with my limited understanding and knowledge, especially of music theory.

The riffs and riffing style to the best of my knowledge after listening to various genres (basic examples):
- Repeated almost as to set a theme, drive, bones, tension, flow, etc. of the song
-------4-5-------4-5-----------6-9-------------6-9--
0-0-0-----0-0-0-----0-1-1-5-----4--0-1-1-5------4

or some slower doomy stuff like (note rings out until next note is played):
1-----6-----4-----1-----6-----4-----

or stuff like this seen in power metal:
000000001111111122222222000000001111111122222222 (LOL)

or maybe some basic riff with power chords
---------5----------7----------5-----------7-
---------3----------5----------3-----------5-
0-0-0-0---0-0-0-0---0-0-0-0---0-0-0-0---

and sometimes there might be some random notes in between the repeated riffs, mini-riffs in a huge riff, riffing mixed in a solo, riffs spanning entire songs, bridges, etc., but there is still some sort of recognizable repetition (even if it it sometimes more difficult to catch in a lot of technical stuff). Some songs (or albums!) have only one or two riffs playing the entire time while others have dozens in one song like in the more speedy and technical stuff.

- Most of the time, I've observed that the riffs employed would include three or more notes (which would include the chug, gallop, etc.), but I guess this is debatable like most of my points.

- There are less broken riffs (like I believe someone else said) & shift of notes which tend to be discernible (perhaps due to the attack of the notes/chords?) and/or give a certain melody. Although attack might be a bit harder to catch in a lot of death and black metal when there is dissonance, tremolo picking, finger sweeping or in faster bands with fast riffs, the notes still tend to be discernible OR understood to be present and played in a certain fasion when there is a discernible melody. The playing in general can have a sort of impact, flow, tension, etc. I think a lot of the flow is what relates metal to classical a bit as well as flamenco, bluegrass, surf rock and probably a few other genres (playing a lot of metal clean can sound a bit like these genres). In general, its like a constantly moving and interconnected flow of notes. For slower stuff, the notes are obviously present and interconnected to form a huge spanning melody or theme.

- Some sort of distortion (whether its OD, fuzz, digital distortion, etc.) tends to help with the attack, hence its huge utilization. Also gives the riff somewhat of a presence (important).

There's probably a few other things in regards to just the riffing style and I'm sure there are others that can better explain. I don't expect for any of this to NOT be scrutinized either.

Outside of riffing itself, theres also the whole fact of how much of a song, album or entire discography should classify a thing as metal. Some expect 100% metal, others 90%, 80% and for some, 10, 20 or 30% of an album is metal enough (and I honestly think those are the ranges in which a casual listener and/or one not too familiar with metal will consider something to be "metal".

My .02 cents.

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SladeCraven
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 1:51 pm
Posts: 639
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:06 pm 
 

Interesting stuff in this thread. I don't have much to add other than I will say that I think its a bit unfair to classify bands like Korn and Disturbed right alongside with Slipknot under the "nu-metal" label. At the very least I think Slipknot is a fence riding band and I think of them as metal, for the most part. But again, it's subjective. I've just never felt right lumping Slipknot next to other bands from that era because they are night and day from say, Limp Bizkit, Coal Chamber, or Deftones.
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~Guest 354281
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:01 pm
Posts: 287
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:56 am 
 

SladeCraven wrote:
Interesting stuff in this thread. I don't have much to add other than I will say that I think its a bit unfair to classify bands like Korn and Disturbed right alongside with Slipknot under the "nu-metal" label. At the very least I think Slipknot is a fence riding band and I think of them as metal, for the most part. But again, it's subjective. I've just never felt right lumping Slipknot next to other bands from that era because they are night and day from say, Limp Bizkit, Coal Chamber, or Deftones.


tbh, to me, Disturbed always sounded closer to Pantera than to Slipknot or Korn, and since Korn and Slipknot don't sound much alike as well, kinda feels like the nu-metal label is the trash can for whatever doesn't sound metal enough, there's quite a range of different stuff in there

I also have real trouble classifying whatever Limp Bizkit used to do as nu-metal even, to me it sounded nothing more than a mix of hip hop, rock and hardcore, which is nowhere close to what the average nu-metal band sounds like

another 2 connotations i have real trouble with is avant-garde and post-metal, there's a bunch of bands that have this labels and yet are still counted as metal, while others fall outside the spectrum, not easy to tell at which point of experimentation does it become too much

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schizoid
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:35 am
Posts: 1602
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:20 am 
 

Opus wrote:
A metal riff - you know it when you hear it. That's the only answer possible. There isn't a chart or a manual or something that tells you what constitutes a metal riff. That's why I asked for *your* definition of a metal riff.
Listen to lots and lots of metal and you will be able to tell a metal riff from a non metal riff.


All this shit about "metal riffs" goes flying out the window when you consider something like War Metal is considered a legitimate metal sub genre. And spare the "you must be new" bullshit.
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