I don't remember much hate directed at them back in the day. At least, not until "Cold Lake" came out. They were pretty respected as far as I know up until "Cold Lake", although I suppose some of the more arrogant, egotistical fans/musicians probably scored them for their lack of technical abilities compared to, say, Dave Mustaine or Darrell Abbot. I remember most of the mainstream metal magazines such as Metal Forces were pretty harsh toward Hellhammer even though a lot of fans liked them- but that was Hellhammer, not Celtic Frost.

ive heard from a bunch of oldies that it took years and years before they got CF and that CF were def not as big then as they are now.



doom/death wouldnt exist without CF

You guys need to listen to Morbid Tales again, in particular "Visions of Mortality" more closely. Tom Warrior tells you how to thrash there.

And of course they were accepted by other Thrash bands: Destruction, Coroner, Kreator, Voivod.....all good friends.

"Proto Extreme Metal"....to hell with this revisionist bullshit.

Yeah, proto-extreme is the biggest bullshit term I see people throwing around. I mean, Celtic Frost was really black/death/thrash metal.

My verdict is as this:

Death Fiend/Triumph of Death = VERY primitive Speed Metal with Venom, NWOBHM & Punk influences
Satanic Rites = EARLY Black Metal
Apocalyptic Raids = primitive Death Metal

After that, it gradually evolves into avantgarde thrash.

can you tell me which riff on visions of mortality is thrash because all i see are riffs that basically Obituary and Asphyx would use later on or do you wanna call songs like Vermin death/thrash? I am not the biggest fan of using the term proto extreme metal either as i call every other band black/thrash or death/thrash or whatever from that era but CF just had riffs back then that are basically minimalist versions of what later black, death and death/doom bands would have. They were/are just called thrash because death or black metal were not defined properly yet.

Yes, and that should solve your problem, if you think about it.

Its like saying: "The Ancient Romans were basically modern Italians. They were just called differently because Italy wasnt defined yet."

Makes no sense. History evolves, its not something experimental.

Finally picked up Morbid Tales and shit that is a good record. How much of a step up musically was this from the Hellhammer stuff? Its very much in line with To Mega Therion but maybe a bit rougher.

To me, it's more or less the logical progression from Hellhammer's "Apocalyptic Raids" EP. The musicianship is better, they're able to convey their ideas better.

I would accept CF as gothic before I would thrash. hardly any of their songs are fast at all, mostly mid tempo or slower. We could arguably label them black, death, doom, speed, gothic, avantgarde, etc. but I just dont hear thrash.

Huh? Into the Crypts of Rays, Circle of the Tyrants, Nocturnal Fear, Suicidal Winds, Visual Aggression, Journey into Fear, Eternal Summer, Fainted Eyes, Inner Sanctum....

Satanic Rites is the closest they ever got to total black metal, even moreso than Apocalyptic Raids in my opinion. Satanic Rites is right along early black metal, like Bathory and Venom. Their very earliest demos are pretty shit to my ears. I would work my way backwards if I was to recommend their best works.

I don't see why thrash wouldn't be seen as the most reasonable genre for CF. Yes, they're best remembered for their slower, midpaced stomping riffs, but that doesn't mean they don't have more than enough fast parts to qualify, often in the same song (as Mass Suicide pointed out). They're also one of the few thrash bands where the hardcore punk influences actually feels really palpable. Simply raw, european thrash in the vein of early German bands is the best label, assuming you don't categorize first wave black metal as it's own genre.

It was a pretty drastic improvement, which is even crazier considering that Apocalyptic Raids and Morbid Tales were both recorded and released in the same year. The only other band that I can think of with such an impressive evolution is Sepultura with Morbid Visions and Schizophrenia.

I would say this shift between AR and MT is partially because Stephen Priestly was a way better drummer than Bruce Day. And if you compare To Mega Therion with Morbid Tales (minus the Emperor's Return sessions songs, of course), you also hear how much better Reed St. Mark was than Priestly. It's a quantum leap between those line-ups, Reed was extremely important for the sound of CF and surely his way of playing also transformed Warrior's riffing.

Someone said the early demos (Death Fiend/Triumph of Death) are shitty and I agree with that. It's enjoyable for a couple of songs but then its a whole lot of filler that all sound more or less the same and it's way too long. The problem of these recordings was clearly Steve Warrior, his bass skills were really nonexistent.

its just sounds like speed to me. Not much different than Motorhead/Maiden/Priest. And their overall discography seems to be mid-tempo with the occasional fast or slow song.

Ah I reread my quote and see the problem you have with it. off the top of my head the majority of their songs goes like mid>slow>fast.....am I right? Maybe they have more fast songs than I realize.

I mostly only listen to Morbid Tales, To Mega therion and Monotheist....dont care much for the others.

Interesting trivia question: On "To Mega Therion" the early working title for the song "Necromantical Screams" was "Buried and Forgotton." There is actually an early, rough version of that song on the Hellhammer LP/demo ("Satanic Rites.") But I have heard or read somewhere, don't know if this is true, that "Visual Agression" off of "Emporer's Return" was also based on an un-recorded Hellhammer song. It was originally titled "Ride the Wings of the Sabbath" and was written sometime right after "Apocalyptic Raids" came out, but was never actually recorded until that Celtic Frost EP (when it was re-worked and given the new title.) There are no known recordings of "Ride the Wings of the Sabbath" so I don't know if this is actually true though, has it been confirmed?

I also read somewhere that Erich Keller of the grindcore band Fear of God was one of the few people (outside of the band and a few diehard friends and supporters) who saw Hellhammer play live- they never played actual clubs, but they would occasionally stage live performances in their basement where they rehearsed, usually with no more than 20-30 people in attendance. Erich is said to have some live recordings of some unreleased songs from back then, including the song "Demon Entrails" but I have never actually heard any of these uploaded anywhere.

Tom Warrior reckons "Synagoga Satanae" is actually pronounced as heard, "sa-ta-na-e" - if one seeks confirmation in his interviews.

"Seltic" is not "totally retarded incorrect"; both pronunciations are considered valid on ethymological grounds.

"Satanae" pronounced as it's written might actually be consistent with classical Latin, whereas reduced dipthongs derive from ecclesiastical Latin.



Never heard of this before, but I wouldn't be surprised if Visual Aggression was a Hellhammer leftover; the riffing style is certainly closer to Massacra or The Third of the Storms than Visions of Mortality. The main difference is the speed and the tightness.