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Ace_Rimmer
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 332
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:20 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Temple Of Blood wrote:
Everyone knows streaming services don't pay anything. Don't put your music up there in that case. No one forced him to give away his music for free.



This is quite literally incorrect. I have several projects on streaming sites and can supply you with my stream/payout charts. They most definitely do pay. In fact his band should have gotten anywhere from 4.5-6k USD for the amount of streams he said he got. Someone is collecting the money, and if it ain't them, he should be talking to his label about that.


Is it anything to write home about though? I don't have the article right now but I was reading about some act that had one of the top streaming tracks on Spotify a couple years ago and how they made a like 20 grand off it or something like that, which in hindsight wasn't anything. Not sure about this particular case but it was laying out how Spotify is making a lot yet that doesn't seem to carry over to the artists for the most part.

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Morn Of Solace
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:50 pm 
 

6k divided among all band members and the label over the course of an entire year is still dreadful :(

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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:58 pm 
 

Morn Of Solace wrote:
6k divided among all band members and the label over the course of an entire year is still dreadful :(


Yeah, no kidding. And it take 1.5 million streams to get that!

Streams are no replacement for music sales and never will be. Of course, tickets and merch are even more lucrative, but you have to put the cart before the horse. Great music = horse. tickets/merch = the cart that follows from that.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:16 pm 
 

Ace_Rimmer wrote:
Is it anything to write home about though? I don't have the article right now but I was reading about some act that had one of the top streaming tracks on Spotify a couple years ago and how they made a like 20 grand off it or something like that, which in hindsight wasn't anything. Not sure about this particular case but it was laying out how Spotify is making a lot yet that doesn't seem to carry over to the artists for the most part.


No, it's just ONE stream of income out of the MANY that you're supposed to be going after. In which case, it actually is a significant amount. I know several people on a personal basis that literally pay all of their monthly bills from Spotify streams alone (one in particular showed me her stream payout chart, she made 30k from streams in 2015 and this is a person that none of you would even know--illustrating how you don't need to be a superstar to get those numbers). Couple that with merch, mechanical royalties and synch licenses and you'll be looking at a decent sum. The point I'm making here is that their failures and/or successes are all up to them, and that they could ostensibly achieve more if they knew how to do it.

Also, 1.5 million streams is absurdly easy to get.
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CloggedUrethra
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:01 pm 
 

In what genre of music, rexxz? It's honestly hard to believe the things you write.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:09 pm 
 

Several. The woman making 30k from streams I know makes symphonic/celtic metal and there are a few electronic music producers of different genres who I know on a personal basis that easily clear $600-700 a month from Spotify. There's nothing unbelievable about it when you start doing it yourself and see how scalable this platform really is. Most indies simply do not know how to build their audience and then leverage them into becoming supporting fans. There is a definitive method to the madness.

And to reiterate once again, that is only a single source of income. You really need to have all your fingers in all the pies to make the most out of it. My own personal projects have seen huge growth ever since I started applying some basic business principles and learning how to build community and culture on social media.
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fourrobert13
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:29 pm 
 

Crematory's statement aside, this issue has been brought more and more by various artist since streaming has become more popular. The norm is becoming crowd funding it seems lately. New bands can't hardly survive and drop off after one or two albums. IMO it's a bigger issue than we realize. Everyone involved with the band wants to profit from it (the label, managers, venues, the band members). Touring cost money as does producing physical media for consumers to buy. I know some of these artist haven't evolved to the new trends in the industry, but streaming isn't going away so why do these bands continue to rely on selling physical products in an age where downloading and streaming are the new norms? Guys and girls need good attorneys to go over their contracts to make sure the don't get screwed over. It seems like common sense to me, but I'm not in the industry, only a consumer. With that said, I don't use streaming services, but buy a mix of physical and digital downloads. Technology and the internet have made music more accessible. The consumers have adapted to this, but not all artist are it seems.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:36 pm 
 

GTog wrote:
Dear Crematory,

If you feel the need to quit, then quit. I won't miss you. There's a ton of metal out there, and a lot of it is better than you.

I'm not saying you're bad. Not at all. Sometimes you're not to my taste, but I do own a couple of your albums (I buy physical CDs whenever possible, mind you). The thing is, I have a finite income. I prioritize. Whenever I go on a shopping spree I have a couple hundred bucks to spend, tops. And I have no trouble, no trouble at all, using it up before I get around to purchasing anything by Crematory.

And no, you don't get credit merely for having been Crematory for a long time. Really? You're not fucking Metallica, where you can shit out whatever every couple of years and still sell a million copies because you're Metallica. You're goddamned Crematory. No one crashes websites scrambling for Crematory tickets. You know how we get Crematory tickets? At the door, because there are always plenty left, and only if nothing good was on TV.

You don't stand out. You haven't in a long time. So rage quit. Best you can hope for is that someone around here will start a "Hey, Remember Crematory?" thread in 5 years. And maybe, just maybe, someone will say Yes.


Co-signed! This band was horrible in the 90s and they're probably even worse now. I've no doubt that people like them, and they have their fans. But if your fans aren't buying presale tickets, well, you really shouldn't be giving them such a hard time. I don't know how it is in Germany, but it's rare that I'll buy advance tickets to a show that I know isn't going to sell out. The savings, once you add the fees from the online ticket vendor and such, are generally very low. The band might also be surprised at the number of people who choose not to use credit cards. I'll only do it if I'm buying tickets for multiple people or I'm afraid the show will sell out. Obviously, the latter isn't happening with Crematory. "Cry me a river"...that's just too damn bad for them. I have a little bit of sympathy for them, but, c'mon. Their shit is ridiculous.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:37 pm 
 

I think rexxz has brought up interesting points here. And I'm skeptical of any world view that goes "oh, things just uniformly suck now, music is dying, there's no way to make money." I figured things probably weren't so dire and it sounds like they aren't. It's a matter, like anything, of being inventive enough to make money.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:52 pm 
 

Why indie musicians are failing:

1. You've been told you need to be perfect.

2. You were taught that if you work really hard, play every gig possible, eat sleep and breathe your music 24/7, that you will be successful.

3. The media told you that you need a record deal to succeed, and if you'd stayed independent no one will take you seriously, and that if you're not signed you're not a true artist.

Truthfully, the industry has changed and now more than ever indie musicians have the greatest means to make a living for themselves off of their work. Because of the large paradigm shift away from label-centric production into a more fractured landscape, that also means the rules are different. As an indie recording artist or band who wants to have a self-sustainable music career, you should be focusing your effort into the following:

1. How to stand out and attract fans to you like a magnet.

2. How to automate building your entire fanbase 24/7 - 365

3. How to create a cash machine from your online music.

All of this is achievable with very minimal resources, but a ton of effort and patience and hard work. Bigger labels these days mostly want to focus on the mainstream, mass appeal. As an indie, you need to go the opposite direction into a micro-niche. Think of it in terms of being a small fish in big pond, or big fish in small pond? We are all living in an ocean of content and most people will drown. Developing your artist identity is super important, and then using that identity to target potential fans whose interests align with your identity is the next step. Marketing is strategic; measurable, repeatable and scalable. Facebook allows you to do this with amazing tools, and other social media platforms offer similar things. Just build your base and attract your superfans. They actually buy your music. They discover you the same day and buy merch, music, write messages to you. Exhibit lots of excitement, engage with you as often as possible. $100 of music and merch to 1,000 superfans every year = money.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:59 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I think rexxz has brought up interesting points here. And I'm skeptical of any world view that goes "oh, things just uniformly suck now, music is dying, there's no way to make money." I figured things probably weren't so dire and it sounds like they aren't. It's a matter, like anything, of being inventive enough to make money.


So who are the new metal bands who can live off of their music without working a crappy side job?

Things are quite "dire" for living off of new music. Not dire at all for making music in your free time during your time off from your 9-5. It's all in your perspective.
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Last edited by Temple Of Blood on Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:01 pm 
 

You can make 6 figures a year easily. My music is self-sustainable and I'm not even super popular, or even close to it.

As far as your question goes, there are quite a lot of bands making a living without crappy side jobs. Way too many to even start listing to be honest.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:02 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
$100 of music and merch to 1,000 superfans every year = money.


Far easier said than done. And how much do your bandmates get paid from that amount? If not much, then expect to replace bandmates quite often until you eventually run out of them.

Also, how many years can you keep that up? The big bands of yesteryear had a commercial peak and then coasted on their hits.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:04 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
You can make 6 figures a year easily. My music is self-sustainable and I'm not even super popular, or even close to it.


How many folks come out to your shows and how often do you play? I know from personal experience that Mississippi is a desolate wasteland for metal.

Quote:
As far as your question goes, there are quite a lot of bands making a living without crappy side jobs. Way too many to even start listing to be honest.


Name some popular ones then. I know even latter-day classic bands like Nevermore and Iced Earth weren't.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:04 pm 
 

It's not as hard as you think. There are actionable plans you can take. Success that can be measured, repeated and scaled. You can keep it up for as long as you'd like, because as an indie you're controlling your own destiny.

I don't tour at ALL and I sustain myself completely from other sources of income from my music.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:07 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
It's not as hard as you think. There are actionable plans you can take. Success that can be measured, repeated and scaled. You can keep it up for as long as you'd like, because as an indie you're controlling your own destiny.

I don't tour at ALL and I sustain myself completely from other sources of income from my music.


Who are the examples of these new metal bands who do this again?
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:08 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
I don't tour at ALL and I sustain myself completely from other sources of income from my music.


You make 100K/year solely on original music? Playing death metal?

I don't think even Glen Benton or Erik Rutan do that.
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rexxz
Where's your band?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:10 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
rexxz wrote:
I don't tour at ALL and I sustain myself completely from other sources of income from my music.


You make 100K/year solely on original music? Playing death metal?

I don't think even Glen Benton or Erik Rutan do that.



No, I don't. I said I sustain myself from my music. In a completely separate, unrelated sentence, I said you can make 100k a year from a simple distribution of $100 in merch, music, digital media and streams to 1,000 super fans. I'm not quite there yet but I do pretty okay for myself. I know a woman who makes celtic symphonic metal that makes over 100k a year and she doesn't tour at all. Her name is Leah McHenry.

Look, I get why you might be cynical and jaded, because it really sucks for most people. But there is a way to make this work if you're willing and able.
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Last edited by rexxz on Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:11 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
Just build your base and attract your superfans. They actually buy your music. They discover you the same day and buy merch, music, write messages to you. Exhibit lots of excitement, engage with you as often as possible. $100 of music and merch to 1,000 superfans every year = money.


Not to mention recommend you to other potential superfans.
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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:20 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
No, I don't. I said I sustain myself from my music. In a completely separate, unrelated sentence, I said you can make 100k a year from a simple distribution of $100 in merch, music, digital media and streams to 1,000 super fans. I'm not quite there yet but I do pretty okay for myself. I know a woman who makes celtic symphonic metal that makes over 100k a year and she doesn't tour at all. Her name is Leah McHenry.


But that style is competing with more commercial "metal" like Nightwish. I mean, that's barely metal at all. Not even close to something like brutal death metal. I don't see how that can be considered a recipe for success in metal in general.

Plus, looks like she teaches "music success" courses: https://savvymusicianacademy.com/studen ... s-stories/

Quote:
Look, I get why you might be cynical and jaded, because it really sucks for most people. But there is a way to make this work if you're willing and able.


I just need some real world examples before I can believe this is possible for True Metal (tm) bands. Everyone I know and have ever heard of works side jobs.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:20 pm 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
I think rexxz has brought up interesting points here. And I'm skeptical of any world view that goes "oh, things just uniformly suck now, music is dying, there's no way to make money." I figured things probably weren't so dire and it sounds like they aren't. It's a matter, like anything, of being inventive enough to make money.


So who are the new metal bands who can live off of their music without working a crappy side job?

Things are quite "dire" for living off of new music. Not dire at all for making music in your free time during your time off from your 9-5. It's all in your perspective.


I don't know, but as a general principle the idea that things used to be good and now they're bad has always been suspect to me.
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rexxz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:21 pm 
 

Dude, you're splitting hairs here. It doesn't matter what the genre is, is the entire point I'm making. ANY artist of any genre can find their audience out there. The amount of people on social media is simply staggering, and they come from all walks of life and are fans of anything and everything. You absolutely can target and build your fan base in even more esoteric and underground genres than True Metal (tm).

Temple Of Blood wrote:

Plus, looks like she teaches "music success" courses: https://savvymusicianacademy.com/studen ... s-stories/



You could probably learn something from her.
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colin040
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:30 pm 
 

I just stumbled upon a music video of Crematory that's somewhat recent.

Youtube: show


...Yeah, this probably isn't for everyone. :lol:

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Temple Of Blood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:34 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
Dude, you're splitting hairs here. It doesn't matter what the genre is, is the entire point I'm making. ANY artist of any genre can find their audience out there. The amount of people on social media is simply staggering, and they come from all walks of life and are fans of anything and everything. You absolutely can target and build your fan base in even more esoteric and underground genres than True Metal (tm).


I'm not saying no one can build a bigger fanbase using some combination of social media/streaming techniques.

I'm saying in 2018 new metal bands don't stand a chance at making a decent living for any extended period of time. And there are no examples to the contrary. What do you pay your bandmates BTW?

Quote:
You could probably learn something from her.


I'm sure every aspiring musician could. But that personal slight aside, how is this different than all the off-tour musicians who teach guitar, drum, and vocal lessons? It's a side job. One that takes you away from the dream: writing and playing your own music.

Besides "Leah" doesn't seem like a band. Are her band members able to live off music too? Is the music all programmed?

Here are some online comments about her $497 (!!!!) course: https://www.reddit.com/r/WeAreTheMusicM ... worth_497/

(uh oh, I think I just discovered how she "made it" in the music biz)
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Morn Of Solace
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:42 pm 
 

I do think that Rexxz's points are valid, at least in theory: there is a way to make it work, and it's really different from the record album/tour around of the 80's.

It's more akin to a pr/marketing job: make good music, find an interesting and unique image and concept, work on your merchandise, know how to run a great kickstarter (look at the Wintersun one) and an engaging Patreon

..however i do believe it's a hard and risky route, and even if you work a lot failure chances are extremely high, as well as the initial expenses (1k of merchandise is not 1k of net income, and building a fanbase is a long process if you don't have a hit song)

And strictly personal opinion: i don't like it at all. Some bands are becoming more like youtubers, and i can't stand that, in particular the trend of spamming vaguely related stuff in the facebook pages

And yes, people who do courses on how to do this will be the real winners in terms of revenue :)

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DecemberSoul
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:40 pm 
 

colin040 wrote:
I just stumbled upon a music video of Crematory that's somewhat recent.

Youtube: show


...Yeah, this probably isn't for everyone. :lol:


GODDAMN. At least most of you out there won't understand the lyrics.

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:56 pm 
 

Yeah, I think Zody posted this earlier in the thread. But i didn't check it out until now. I was right; they have gotten worse. I made it about a minute through and turned off in revulsion. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with mixing metal and this kind of EBM type music but that was intolerably wretched. Crematory, just put it down.
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cultofkraken
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:59 pm 
 

DecemberSoul wrote:
colin040 wrote:
I just stumbled upon a music video of Crematory that's somewhat recent.

Youtube: show


...Yeah, this probably isn't for everyone. :lol:


GODDAMN. At least most of you out there won't understand the lyrics.


That’s some confused shit going on. Singer looks like he’s dressed to be in a Ska band, the one guitarist is in cybergoth mode, and the other guitarist in a thrash band, keyboardist looks like a scene kid at a rave and the drummer looks like he thought this was a Grateful Dead cover band. Wtf
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:03 pm 
 

cultofkraken wrote:
That’s some confused shit going on. Singer looks like he’s dressed to be in a Ska band, the one guitarist is in cybergoth mode, and the other guitarist in a thrash band, keyboardist looks like a scene kid at a rave and the drummer looks like he thought this was a Grateful Dead cover band. Wtf



No no you don't understand. It's called marketing image to diverse fan-base.
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Morn Of Solace
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:06 pm 
 

..With just a touch of bdsm, lgbt awareness and a eerie nsbm friendly band name! The basis are all covered.

Sky is the limit!

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GTog
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:00 am 
 

rexxz wrote:
Why indie musicians are failing:3. The media told you that you need a record deal to succeed, and if you'd stayed independent no one will take you seriously, and that if you're not signed you're not a true artist.


This, more than any other one single thing, I think. I've never heard of a record label that tries really hard to make money for a band. They all try really hard to make money from a band. That used to be the only way it worked, because it wasn't possible to self produce, self record, or self distribute. You needed that contract. But now none of those things are impossible. They're not even hard. But some bands either don't know how or don't want to do it. They just want to bitch.

I follow a lot of bands on Facebook, and it never ceases to amaze me how little I see updates from most of them. Shilling your shit on FB is literally the easiest thing to do, for fuck's sake.
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fourrobert13
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:00 am 
 

Allegaeon is who I will use as an example. These guys went public not too long ago asking for fan support. Each band member wanted $50k a year in order to be able to live and tour without having to work a side job. I'm not sure how that worked out for them, but they are pretty popular and I would imagine they have a pretty big fan base. They are also signed to a pretty big record label. These guys are pretty established and have a few albums out now. That alone says to me, it's harder than it looks to make a living off one's music. I also read an article not long ago about Chuck Billy and Steve "Zetro" Souza working union jobs during down time from touring and these guys have been around even longer. Either these guys are doing something wrong, or it's not that easy.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:20 am 
 

colin040 wrote:
I just stumbled upon a music video of Crematory that's somewhat recent.

Youtube: show


...Yeah, this probably isn't for everyone. :lol:


More Rammstein wannabes, plus goth, or just a typical goth band? Either way, it's shit.

Goth, trance techno and rap (after the mid-90s or so, before then there were like 4 or 5 entertaining albums)....why do they still exist?

Oh, thanks, Youtube. Apparently they do Depeche Mode covers too (like Rammstein).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdfVbl09DqY

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lost_wanderer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 4:59 pm
Posts: 252
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:54 am 
 

Temple Of Blood wrote:

So who are the new metal bands who can live off of their music without working a crappy side job?

Things are quite "dire" for living off of new music. Not dire at all for making music in your free time during your time off from your 9-5. It's all in your perspective.



We can say the same with old bands. Beside a few like Iron maiden and Metallica, how many live of their music witout a side job? And if they do, it took a long time do did that usually. I took 5 years for Iron maiden before they did their first album. How many band stay that long if they dont succed really quickly? With the internet and computer programs, it's way more easy to make and distribute albums. Who knows how many bands in the 80 and 90 didn't make it to the first demo because they didn't have acces to a recording studio? Or after recording a demo didn't have a proper record deal, or even after all that split up after one or two albums? So it was not easier back them. A lot of people making music but just a few lucky to become popular. And some old band are popular now because of the internet.
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thrashinbatman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 873
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:03 pm 
 

fourrobert13 wrote:
Allegaeon is who I will use as an example. These guys went public not too long ago asking for fan support. Each band member wanted $50k a year in order to be able to live and tour without having to work a side job. I'm not sure how that worked out for them, but they are pretty popular and I would imagine they have a pretty big fan base. They are also signed to a pretty big record label. These guys are pretty established and have a few albums out now. That alone says to me, it's harder than it looks to make a living off one's music. I also read an article not long ago about Chuck Billy and Steve "Zetro" Souza working union jobs during down time from touring and these guys have been around even longer. Either these guys are doing something wrong, or it's not that easy.

In fairness, Chuck Billy said he did those jobs to keep himself busy during downtime (though I imagine the mid-90s through mid-00s weren't very kind to Testament), and Zetro as well as the rest of Exodus have said that by now the band is their full-time job.

This isn't to say that it's easy or anything, but I see a lot of people take statements from these big metal bands about this stuff out-of-context (see also people taking Dave Lombardo saying he made $60k in Slayer as how little musicians make when what he was really saying was that Slayer made quite a bit of money and he wasn't being paid fairly) to continue the "woe-is-me" narrative rather than try to find methods to make it better.

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kluseba
Making Metal Archives Reviews Great Again!

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:36 am
Posts: 563
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:10 pm 
 

By the way, here is the band's first song from the new album Oblivion:

Youtube: show


Not their best song but I like it.
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Temple Of Blood
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:16 am
Posts: 1720
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:54 pm 
 

lost_wanderer wrote:
So it was not easier back them.


It was certainly easier, but by no means easy. Now it's impossible.

Any possibility is easier than impossible.
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blackmantram
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 323
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:01 pm 
 

kluseba wrote:
By the way, here is the band's first song from the new album Oblivion:

Youtube: show




No wonder their fans are not buying their stuff anymore. This shit was cool like 20 years ago, give up already or stop bitching.

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t1337Dude
Metalhead

Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 5:20 am
Posts: 960
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:03 pm 
 

You can be Metallica, arguably the most successful metal band on the planet, and your fans will shit all over you if you express any entitlement (e.g. the Napster situation). It appears to be commonly understood that musicians by nature should be grateful for everything, and expect nothing. They aren't producing any wealth, goods, or providing any crucial services. The value is purely decided by what people are willing to pay for it and putting the pretense of art aside, musicians are just entertainers producing entertainment. It's unfortunate and as much as I wish otherwise, being a metal musician is probably one of the least profitable and rewarding things you can do in entertainment. Markus' rant really comes nothing more than a tantrum resulting from his failed dream of being able to live and coast off his music.

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Scorntyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:55 am
Posts: 1442
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:53 am 
 

He certainly doesn’t look like he’s going hungry thiugh
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