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CradleOfBurzum
Village Idiot

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 439
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:33 am 
 

- Dead was the first to use corpse paint in black metal and even coined the term himself according to Hellhammer and Necrobutcher respectively. Dead didn't do this just to look cool, he really wanted to look like a corpse. Corpse paint would then become the most identifiable aspect of black metal thanks to Dead.

- Dead set the standard for black metal vocals: shrieking, shrill, practically illegible but haunting and distinctly evil-ish screams and snarls as well as occult lyrical influences. Something that other vocalists would use as an influence for their own vocals and lyrics.

- Dead took the atmosphere of black metal concerts from 10 and turned it up to 100. Dead’s plans for live shows included sacrificing a cow onstage with a fire ax, constructing a Transylvania-themed back drop, dead trees, authentic 11th century instruments of torture, animal and human heads hanging by meat hooks with screws in their eyes, and taking on stage “…a highly tuned kitchen saw machine that’s cutting and sawing faster than it’s possible to control…that would be a nice thing to have there I think.” Future black metal bands would take inspiration from this and increase the atmosphere of their own shows.

- Dead was described as strange and introverted and had some unusual behaviors such as burying the clothes he was going to wear onstage weeks before a concert, asking his band members to bury him so he could become more pale, sleeping in a coffin before shows, keeping a dead raven in a bag that he would smell before shows in order to sing "with the stench of death in his nostrils,” starving himself to get an anorexic skeletal look, and was also prone to bouts of self-mutilation on and off stage that were occasionally so severe he had to be rushed to the hospital immediately following shows. Again, Dead took the lifestyle of a black metal vocalist farther than anyone else has. The self-mutilation during shows would become a popular tactic other black metal vocalists would incorporate to their shows. There were/are a lot of posers in black metal, but Dead was not one of them. Speaking of posers...

- Dead hated “posers” of the black metal scene and at shows would do all he could to get rid of them, such as throwing severed pig heads at the audience, stabbing at members of the audience, and bleeding all over them. Dead managed to get audiences of three hundred down to fifty in an attempt to “thin the herds.” If you're one of those people that think black metal should never be mainstream and should always stay underground, then you can thank Dead for his contribution in trying to achieve that goal.

- Dead's suicide created more notoriety and attention towards black metal. Dead's suicide would change the scene of black metal forever.

I could keep going on, but it's evident that black metal vocalists from the second wave and of today owe a lot of gratitude towards Dead for all of the pioneering he accomplished for the black metal scene. Without Dead, who knows how long it would have took for black metal to develop into the image that we know of today.

Do you agree or do you have someone else in mind when it comes to innovating the black metal scene?
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Last edited by CradleOfBurzum on Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rodman
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 976
Location: Sydney, Australia
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:54 am 
 

So much fresh information.

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Warty_basaloid
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:32 am
Posts: 366
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:30 am 
 

I'd see Quorthon, King Diamond and even Varg as more influential. Wearing stinky clothes, self harming and doing a Kurt Cobain isn't that important to me.

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The Ardbeg Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:57 am
Posts: 1114
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:56 am 
 

The most influential vocalist in regards to what?
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~Guest 277521
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:42 am
Posts: 263
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:00 am 
 

Most of those elements sound more like someone that immediately needs psychiatric attention to be honest. The whole shtick of how black metal doesn't need to be mainstream so you should be bled on by the band is some of the most moronic and immature crap I've heard in a long time.

Yes Dead was influencial, can we now please actually go back to discussing music instead of deifying fucking kids that needed help?

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The Ardbeg Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:57 am
Posts: 1114
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:05 am 
 

maladie wrote:
Most of those elements sound more like someone that immediately needs psychiatric attention to be honest. The whole shtick of how black metal doesn't need to be mainstream so you should be bled on by the band is some of the most moronic and immature crap I've heard in a long time.

Yes Dead was influencial, can we now please actually go back to discussing music instead of deifying fucking kids that needed help?


If you don't understand black metal, feel free to leave.
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FloristOfVampyrism
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 12:59 pm
Posts: 131
Location: The asylum for wayward Victorian girls
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:10 am 
 

Dead was beyond the abomination that is liberal use of black hair dye. Leave that for the girls who used to suck off Peter Steele
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The Ardbeg Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:57 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:16 am 
 

FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
Dead was beyond the abomination that is liberal use of black hair dye. Leave that for the girls who used to suck off Peter Steele


Are you 12?
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FloristOfVampyrism
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 12:59 pm
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Location: The asylum for wayward Victorian girls
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:19 am 
 

The Ardbeg Wizard wrote:
FloristOfVampyrism wrote:
Dead was beyond the abomination that is liberal use of black hair dye. Leave that for the girls who used to suck off Peter Steele


Are you 12?


You don't understand black metal, so please leave
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The Ardbeg Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:57 am
Posts: 1114
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:33 am 
 

if you have nothing to add to this topic, go do something else. Kiddie trolling is pathetic.
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FloristOfVampyrism
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:42 am 
 

And what exactly have you added to this topic?
What insights have you shared? What in depth analysis hast thou provided?
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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:55 am 
 

CradleOfBurzum wrote:
- Dead hated “posers” of the black metal scene and at shows would do all he could to get rid of them, such as throwing severed pig heads at the audience, stabbing at members of the audience, and bleeding all over them. Dead managed to get audiences of three hundred down to fifty in an attempt to “thin the herds.” If you're one of those people that think black metal should never be mainstream and should always stay underground, then you can thank Dead for his contribution in trying to achieve that goal.


The older I get, the dumber this mentality gets to me. Just let people like what they like, man. Being the only person listening to a band that I find particularly awesome tends to be a rather miserable experience.

Though being reminded of his stage theatrics again did make me think of black metal's relationship with the live environment. I generally don't see shows get intense as those of Watain or Gorgoroth due to modern venue regulations and such, but it seems like bands in the genre either go all out on their shows or avoid playing live completely.
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~Guest 417309
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Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:30 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:02 am 
 

Dead's vocals never did much for me, to be honest. He has performed on some of the most important black metal ever recorded though, so it's hard to deny him influential status. I prefer his lyric work to his singing. I'm sure back in the day in Norway, his live stage presence had a lot to do with his notoriety is well - so there's a factor that we can't really take into consideration either unless we bore witness. But for me, Atilla Cshair is the Mayhem vocalist. Dude practically gave 12 year old me fucking nightmares the first time I heard De Mysteriis so many years ago. From a purely musical perspective, he just has superior control over his voice, can create really nasty sounding noises, and has many different styles he utilizes. Combine that with production trickery and you get something like Ordo Ad Chao which imho is the greatest extreme vocal performance I've heard. Dead couldn't have done what Atilla did on Ordo.

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FirebathDan
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 1622
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:50 am 
 

Despite the utter banality of this topic, I will say that-in terms of "standard" genre tropes-Dead's performance on Live In Leipzig (and the subsequent pseudo-bootlegs from the same tour recently reissued by Peaceville) are what I would call the "gold standard" of conventional black metal vocals. For my money, if you were trying to become a black metal vocalist, that performance is the ideal reference point for conventional, basic, standard black metal vocals-it doesn't get any better than that. Him not being on De Mysteriis is a huge "what could have been", and the two compilations tracks are simply not enough.

However, I completely concede that Atilla is the superior vocalist, and that's because he goes far beyond the notion of "conventions".

This topic has been done to death.
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Unity
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:42 pm
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Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:54 am 
 

To be quite frank, I think that if it was Dead singing on DMDS the album wouldn't be as good.
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Opus
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
Posts: 4266
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:55 pm 
 

Do you know what Dead thought of people who idolized him? He didn't like 'em.
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CrippledLucifer
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 5:08 am
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Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:09 pm 
 

Stopped reading after the first bullet point since that's not even true.
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idunnosomename
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:47 pm
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Location: England
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:23 pm 
 

He was an interesting man, but I think Necrobutcher and Hellhammer would agree with me that it'd have been better if their friend had got help and not killed himself rather than being seen as the Jesus Christ of black metal.

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KinskiTemper
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:30 pm
Posts: 185
Location: SC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:11 pm 
 

There was nothing all that special about his voice. You can argue about its innovations to the genre, but most of the recordings that feature him are shit quality anyway, and his role as a dark, theatrical frontman was far surpassed (in my opinion) by Csihar.

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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
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Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:23 pm 
 

FirebathDan wrote:
This topic has been done to death.


Unbelievably stupid topic. Don't expect any less from a user title like "CradleofBurzum", quite frankly.
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~Guest 226319
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:28 pm 
 

That's a bit harsh. "Who is the most influential black metal vocalist" is a fine topic. Everyone doesn't have to try to ruin the thread because the opening post is a bit newbish.

I'll go with Varg because more aspiring black metal warriors have gone hoarse trying to immitate him than anyone else. He brought a lot of emotions into the spectrum of metal vokills that simply weren't there before. There had been plenty of grim and growly stuff before, and while Dead was a good vokillist and theatrical stageman, his gruff grunts weren't really that far out of the norm. Varg, on the other hand, basically turned metal vocals on their head, much like he did with every aspect of metal composition and production on the s/t. Where before was aggression and beastly strength, he brought anguish and desperation. Pain and pride, even pride in pain. It fit both the themes of the music and what turned out to be his real personality. Pompous, self aggrandizing, frustrated, dreaming...

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TrooperEd
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:17 pm 
 

Varg was influential on death metal as well, most notable Tomas Lindberg.
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MRmehman
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:34 pm
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Location: The Painted World of Ariamis
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:36 pm 
 

Everything about this seems so... Vanilla. When I was first getting into black metal, this was exactly my opinion. I love the shit out of Dead, I think he's very influential but THE most influential? He wasn't the first to wear corpse paint, he wasn't nearly as introverted as people say he was and people who look up to or are impressed by his death are scum.

Put down your copy of "Lords of Chaos", close the tab you're watching "Until the Light Takes Us" with and pick up the booklet to "Year of the Goat", "Live in Zeits" or the book his own brother wrote on him. They give a much fuller picture of who Dead was.
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~Guest 226319
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:39 pm 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
Varg was influential on death metal as well, most notable Tomas Lindberg.

Can't miss it on "The Red in the Sky is Ours".

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Oxenkiller
Veteran

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:49 pm 
 

I don't deny he was certainly one of the most influential black metal vocalists, if not THE most.
A lot of the stupid shit that he did, he did because he had some rather obvious psychological problems. In his mind he was trying to be pure evil, death, extreme, whatever, but most people don't really buy that. Although plenty of other vocalists may have been inspired by that kind of thing as a prerequisite to be "true" or whatever, so maybe yeah, he was influential in that way. Although I wouldn't say that was influential in a good way. Its ilke, yeah, I can act like a depressed, deranged crack head too, look at me. I read about some of that stuff, and the more I read about the guy the more I honestly feel sorry for him rather than idolize him.

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~Guest 282118
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:08 pm 
 

The Ardbeg Wizard wrote:
maladie wrote:
Most of those elements sound more like someone that immediately needs psychiatric attention to be honest. The whole shtick of how black metal doesn't need to be mainstream so you should be bled on by the band is some of the most moronic and immature crap I've heard in a long time.

Yes Dead was influencial, can we now please actually go back to discussing music instead of deifying fucking kids that needed help?

If you don't understand black metal, feel free to leave.

He's right though. Dead was a mentally disturbed teenager, not some kind of artistic genius. Anyone who idolizes him or supports that kind of behaviour is nothing more than a pretentious idiot manchild.

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hots_towel
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:19 am
Posts: 426
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:18 pm 
 

I maintain that if Ohlin never killed himself, he would be just another vocalist mayhem had before they had an official release. kinda like maniac.

Unity wrote:
To be quite frank, I think that if it was Dead singing on DMDS the album wouldn't be as good.

I'd argue it would be better than having the down syndrome monk himself doing vocals on that album. I get Attila had his place here and there on that album, but he manages to make an official release sound like a cover album. Hell I'd take Limbonic art's cover of the song DMDM over the studio version.

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Rodman
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 976
Location: Sydney, Australia
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:24 pm 
 

Warty_basaloid wrote:
I'd see Quorthon, King Diamond and even Varg as more influential. Wearing stinky clothes, self harming and doing a Kurt Cobain isn't that important to me.


I would agree.

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The Ardbeg Wizard
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:57 am
Posts: 1114
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:42 am 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
The Ardbeg Wizard wrote:
He's right though. Dead was a mentally disturbed teenager, not some kind of artistic genius. Anyone who idolizes him or supports that kind of behaviour is nothing more than a pretentious idiot manchild.


A.k.a. Anyone who disagrees with me is stupid a.k.a. your tiny spectrum
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EpicSceptic
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:26 am
Posts: 704
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:02 am 
 

Every time this dude starts or enters a discussion I cringe so hard my skin flips inside out.

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joppek
Veteran

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:36 am
Posts: 2547
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:30 am 
 

The Ardbeg Wizard wrote:
Xlxlx wrote:
He's right though. Dead was a mentally disturbed teenager, not some kind of artistic genius. Anyone who idolizes him or supports that kind of behaviour is nothing more than a pretentious idiot manchild.


A.k.a. Anyone who disagrees with me is stupid a.k.a. your tiny spectrum


you're on the spectrum if your idea of people to idolise are mentally ill teenagers who off themselves

dead was obviously a very influential person in the early days of the 2nd wave black metal, but i'd say people like quorhton and varg have been much more influential in the big picture, largely because of more extensive careers and proper recordings
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peterott
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 4:34 pm
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:30 am 
 

FirebathDan wrote:
Despite the utter banality of this topic, I will say that-in terms of "standard" genre tropes-Dead's performance on Live In Leipzig (and the subsequent pseudo-bootlegs from the same tour recently reissued by Peaceville) are what I would call the "gold standard" of conventional black metal vocals. For my money, if you were trying to become a black metal vocalist, that performance is the ideal reference point for conventional, basic, standard black metal vocals-it doesn't get any better than that. Him not being on De Mysteriis is a huge "what could have been", and the two compilations tracks are simply not enough.


This. Dead, Quorthon on the first 3 records, Vorph on the first Samael, Frantisek Storm, these guys have an aura around their voice, like "coming from the dead". Today I hear ridiculous vocalist, sounding like a garbage version of Donald Duck. I wonder where the "from the dead" in the Black Metal vocals has been left.
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The Ardbeg Wizard
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Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:57 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:01 am 
 

joppek wrote:

you're on the spectrum if your idea of people to idolise are mentally ill teenagers who off themselves



Hahaha. Way to diminish everything he did and meant for black metal as it is today, by only mentioning that.
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~Guest 226319
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:10 am 
 

All of The Ardbeg Wizard's posts wrote:
im better then u

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Twisted_Psychology
Metal freak

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:21 pm 
 

Is there an English translation of the book by Dead's brother? I'd read that before any more regurgitated, sensationalist crap.
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FloristOfVampyrism
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 12:59 pm
Posts: 131
Location: The asylum for wayward Victorian girls
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:35 pm 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
Is there an English translation of the book by Dead's brother? I'd read that before any more regurgitated, sensationalist crap.


Which book is this?
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Derigin
The Mountain Man

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 5998
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:20 pm 
 

Maybe he's referring to "Blod Eld Död"?

In any case, this thread. Normally I'd just close it and move on - maybe make a pithy statement about it - but we witness all the wonderful things that make threads shitty here. You have one of the most done-to-death discussions in black metal, with all the myths to go along with it, this time being put forward by a young user who really should know better about creating shit threads. On top of that, you have The Ardbeg Wizard being your stereotypical, edgy asshole -- consider yourself warned by the way -- who is himself an infantile child antagonizing 14 year-olds. You have the usual folks who somehow need to tell the rest of us that they didn't read and don't care, some that just have to +1 and agree with the fact that so-and-so was a good/bad artist, and veteran regulars who jump on this dumpster fire like bees to honey (although they, too, should know better to avoid these threads). Of course you have a minority genuinely interested in having a discussion, but they are sadly drowned out. Damn guys, what a shit thread.
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