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narsilianshard
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
Posts: 1879
Location: Louisville
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:54 am 
 

jaykeisstrange wrote:
The guitar players are definitely talented, but that's about it IMO.

Sounds like you're a bit biased and have had this opinion of them before they started putting out records. That's fine, and you're entitled to that, but saying their only talent lies in their guitars is baffling. I've seen them a couple times and Jake's voice is flawless live. Maybe it's been a few years, or you've just been unlucky in the sets that you've seen, but I have never heard anyone make any complaint about his talent as a live singer.

And "the riffs and songs don't go anywhere" is an insane argument for this kind of music. This isn't prog, it's straightforward heavy metal. Riffs don't need to evolve, and songs don't need to meander and throw curveballs. The riffs are badass, the choruses are catchy: that's literally all that matters in this style.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 26141
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:23 am 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
And "the riffs and songs don't go anywhere" is an insane argument for this kind of music. This isn't prog, it's straightforward heavy metal. Riffs don't need to evolve, and songs don't need to meander and throw curveballs. The riffs are badass, the choruses are catchy: that's literally all that matters in this style.


Well songwriting still matters. It's the difference between mid to late-era Iced Earth and something like Maiden's classic period, the progression and fluidity of songs, how they hold your interest, etc.
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jaykeisstrange
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 9:36 pm
Posts: 66
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:15 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
narsilianshard wrote:
And "the riffs and songs don't go anywhere" is an insane argument for this kind of music. This isn't prog, it's straightforward heavy metal. Riffs don't need to evolve, and songs don't need to meander and throw curveballs. The riffs are badass, the choruses are catchy: that's literally all that matters in this style.


Well songwriting still matters. It's the difference between mid to late-era Iced Earth and something like Maiden's classic period, the progression and fluidity of songs, how they hold your interest, etc.


This is what I'm talking about. It's not like a song needs a million riffs to be exciting, but if they're not that special to begin with, they can't really carry a song over several repeats. The same goes for the vocals. Even if they sound good tonally, they can't really carry choruses as long as they're employing.

To the other point, there may be some personal bias from my history with them, but I did see them as recently as a few months ago. I'll admit that the vocal performance was better this time, but it only lead to making the shortcomings of the drums and bass more obvious where I hadn't paid as much attention before. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but even the bar is set lower for some listeners that are chomping at the bit for more of this style, I still don't see Visigoth as "the new leaders of heavy metal" or whatever they're being heralded as. What does it do that their idols didn't do a whole lot better? Nothing that I can discern. That's not to say that something has to be wildly original to be good, I enjoy plenty of music that sits within the confines of its genre, but they have have some conviction and do at least something to make it their own. That's what it seems like is missing, that they're too busy "playing by the rules" to really define themselves. Again, I'm perfectly open to being wrong if I'm missing something, but I really can't figure out what the hype is about.

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PurpleDoom
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:39 pm
Posts: 282
Location: Gazing into the deep
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:38 pm 
 

So far as I can tell it just comes down to disagreement on the quality of the songwriting, really. You think the riffs and vocals are uninteresting and can't carry the songs, most of the people posting in this thread disagree. Neither viewpoint is "missing" anything. That being said, I don't think anyone here views them as the second coming of heavy metal - just an enjoyable newer band.

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blackmantram
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 323
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:59 pm 
 

The good old "riffs and/or songs don't go nowhere", a phrase so overused that just sounds like "I don't know what else to say, I just don't like this, fuck you".
The music is not just going where you want it to go, that's it.

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Wombface
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:28 pm
Posts: 261
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:44 pm 
 

jaykeisstrange wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. It's not like a song needs a million riffs to be exciting, but if they're not that special to begin with, they can't really carry a song over several repeats. The same goes for the vocals. Even if they sound good tonally, they can't really carry choruses as long as they're employing.

To the other point, there may be some personal bias from my history with them, but I did see them as recently as a few months ago. I'll admit that the vocal performance was better this time, but it only lead to making the shortcomings of the drums and bass more obvious where I hadn't paid as much attention before. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but even the bar is set lower for some listeners that are chomping at the bit for more of this style, I still don't see Visigoth as "the new leaders of heavy metal" or whatever they're being heralded as. What does it do that their idols didn't do a whole lot better? Nothing that I can discern. That's not to say that something has to be wildly original to be good, I enjoy plenty of music that sits within the confines of its genre, but they have have some conviction and do at least something to make it their own. That's what it seems like is missing, that they're too busy "playing by the rules" to really define themselves. Again, I'm perfectly open to being wrong if I'm missing something, but I really can't figure out what the hype is about.


Me neither. Listened to that latest album a couple of times and it did nothing for me.
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jaykeisstrange
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 9:36 pm
Posts: 66
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:01 pm 
 

blackmantram wrote:
The good old "riffs and/or songs don't go nowhere", a phrase so overused that just sounds like "I don't know what else to say, I just don't like this, fuck you".
The music is not just going where you want it to go, that's it.


No "fuck you" involved, I just don't hear any of the energy, flow, or excitement that I enjoy from classic heavy metal, or even other retro acts like Metalucifer and October 31. It just seems like a case of style over substance to my ears, that they're so focused on embodying that epic metal Omen/Manilla Road type of sound that they forgot to put their own mark or vigor on it. The fact that the internet loses its shit every time Jake Rogers farts makes me think that I'm listening to a different band than everyone else. I read the descriptions that you're all throwing out about them and think "that sounds great on paper, but I don't think it applies to this band". Hopefully that clarifies what I'm getting at, I know I'm not great at stating my opinion.

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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 7702
Location: The Land Down Under (no, not THAT one)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:33 pm 
 

A guy doesn't like the band; big fucking deal. Dio forbid people have any differing opinions or anything in a music forum :lol: People sometimes simply don't like stuff. No need to make a thesis about why you don't love X band or release to justify your dislike.

With that said, I think the album's great. Follows the steps of The Revenant King, though in a much more compact format I enjoy a fair bit more. Some songs in the debut were more than a little trudging for their own good, and that doesn't seem to be the case here, so I'm super happy. Gonna be spinning this a lot in the weeks to come.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 26141
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:21 pm 
 

People sure do get testy when anyone makes any slight critique of this band.
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blackmantram
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 323
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:01 pm 
 

My post was not intended to defend this band or attack anyone, It was more a general comment in regards to the "X going nowhere" argument pretty common in musical criticism and reviews. I just find it empty and vague, like, it could mean anything.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 26141
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:49 pm 
 

blackmantram wrote:
My post was not intended to defend this band or attack anyone, It was more a general comment in regards to the "X going nowhere" argument pretty common in musical criticism and reviews. I just find it empty and vague, like, it could mean anything.


True enough, but this guy seemed to explain his rationale well enough to where it wasn't some trollish kind of complaint. I'm listening to the album again now and it's definitely good, but I can see how people would find it very generic and standard in a lot of ways.

"Outlive Them All" and "Hammerforged" are really fucking good songs - I like that they're dialing back the excess a bit here and showing they know how to write shorter, more straight-up metal tunes. Speaks well to their variety. I think they've got a bright future.

I think these guys are better as a straightforward rocking band, as "Salt City" shows, I'll be honest.
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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 7702
Location: The Land Down Under (no, not THAT one)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:41 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
People sure do get testy when anyone makes any slight critique of this band.

Yeah, it's kind of bizarre, really. I love the band and stuff, but people are allowed to like what they like.
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jaykeisstrange
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 9:36 pm
Posts: 66
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:42 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
People sure do get testy when anyone makes any slight critique of this band.


I've noticed. I thought the Gallowbraid EP was decent, but it seems like any dissenting opinion of any of Jake's bands really gets under people's skin. He almost always performs well instrumentally, especially since he's handling multiple instruments on his own in some cases, but all of his bands seem like a pale imitation of something else to me. Most people compare Gallowbraid to Agalloch, but I hear more Falkenbach in their sound. Still, I don't hear anything to go nuts about, same with the Venom/Motorhead worship of Befouler or the Summoning worship of Caladan Brood, and yet these bands seem to inspire insanely strong feelings in people where I feel nothing. I guess I would rather just hear the originals...

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PvtNinjer
Veteran

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:45 am
Posts: 3777
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:30 pm 
 

Personally I think where the band succeeds is the songwriting, but maybe it's just a right place, right time thing. Lets be real, most metal bands aren't churning out riffs we haven't heard before, especially in retro styles, it's all how it comes together. Maybe I just heard it when I was really wanting to listen to some trad stuff and I didn't realize it :lol:. I listen to so much metal that I find quite boring and faceless, sometimes to the point where I question if I even like the genre anymore, but this album was instantly enjoyable to me, and I think it's really down to the arrangements. I think the placement of the leads and especially the vocal arrangements and delivery really make this album. You can tell the lyrics were written with the songs in mind, which I find most metal bands really suck at (ie: trying to fit too many or too few syllables into a line, no care for a consistent rhythm or delivery during verses, lending a haphazard and unmemorable experience). Take the "I vomit and spit upon your name" line from Traitor's Gate. You can really feel the venom in his voice, and the point where it's delivered just feels very deliberate and well placed.

Just some thoughts. Emp is right though, people stan for this band so hard it's embarassing. I can't remember who it was, but someone was trying to aha! him a while back when he mentioned he didn't like the vocals that much by bringing up other bands he likes and it's just like wtf. Liking music isn't always objective and logical, lol. It's just about what it makes us feel.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 26141
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:47 pm 
 

PvtNinjer wrote:
Personally I think where the band succeeds is the songwriting, but maybe it's just a right place, right time thing. Lets be real, most metal bands aren't churning out riffs we haven't heard before, especially in retro styles, it's all how it comes together. Maybe I just heard it when I was really wanting to listen to some trad stuff and I didn't realize it :lol:. I listen to so much metal that I find quite boring and faceless, sometimes to the point where I question if I even like the genre anymore, but this album was instantly enjoyable to me, and I think it's really down to the arrangements. I think the placement of the leads and especially the vocal arrangements and delivery really make this album. You can tell the lyrics were written with the songs in mind, which I find most metal bands really suck at (ie: trying to fit too many or too few syllables into a line, no care for a consistent rhythm or delivery during verses, lending a haphazard and unmemorable experience). Take the "I vomit and spit upon your name" line from Traitor's Gate. You can really feel the venom in his voice, and the point where it's delivered just feels very deliberate and well placed.


It's easy to see why people like them - they're simple, clear songwriters and dabble in influences from Jag Panzer, Omen, Manilla Road, etc but make it very streamlined and accessible. They're entertaining and have a shitload of energy. They're basically a sort of palatable standard for the genre and do everything well enough to stand out.

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Just some thoughts. Emp is right though, people stan for this band so hard it's embarassing. I can't remember who it was, but someone was trying to aha! him a while back when he mentioned he didn't like the vocals that much by bringing up other bands he likes and it's just like wtf. Liking music isn't always objective and logical, lol. It's just about what it makes us feel.


Exactly, yeah. Thinking all music has to be judged by one standard is kind of limiting. You make opinions on a case by case basis all the time and there are so many variables that will strike you different ways, so it's weird that people would be so baffled as to "discrepancies" in taste... it's all just random and you never know what you'll like. For me the mark of a truly great band is if I can't stop playing it, and Visigoth just haven't had an album I've wanted to play over and over yet. I've been much more enamored with the new Saxon this year, for example... but that isn't to say this is a bad album; it's still good. Just not the best ever, etc.
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Marken
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:09 am
Posts: 38
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:25 pm 
 

The album is pretty ok, but there are lots of better stuff out there. Traitor's Gate is a monstersong though.
Most of the stuff sounds like a mixture of Twisted Tower Dire, Grand Magus and Falconer.

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jaykeisstrange
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 9:36 pm
Posts: 66
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:49 pm 
 

I still don't get it, and I'm not hearing this "energy" that you guys are talking about, but to each their own I guess. Good conversation though, thanks for contributing.

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Xlxlx
Argentinian Asado Supremacy

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 7702
Location: The Land Down Under (no, not THAT one)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:48 pm 
 

Yeah, I don't think there isn't really anything to "get" here. Most clear cut case of different strokes for different folks I've seen here in a while.
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Everflowingstream
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:29 am
Posts: 260
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:28 am 
 

Got it today. On first listen sounds better than the first album. Nothing new but enjoyable.

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orionparker
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 8:55 am
Posts: 221
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:03 pm 
 

I don't really get the super-hype for Visigoth. I am going to echo the words of Empyreal and say that the vocalist is the real killer for me..."too grandiose and over-the-top dramatic". The band is super tight musically, good riffs, fantastic fat guitar tone, but still seems to fall a bit short. I actually find their debut to be a bit more palatable. I think the longer songs leave less time for vocals which I like better, plus I think the vocal delivery was a bit more raw...less layered and dramatic. The Revanant King I can let play and get through it, but Conqueror's Oath I fond myself skipping songs after 2 rounds of verse/chorus/verse/chorus. I can definitely see why people dig it but I don't see them as the saviors of heavy metal like it seems some people do.

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Ace_Rimmer
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:30 am
Posts: 319
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:36 pm 
 

So far the new record is good but I"m not sure what kind of staying power it will have. Its not sticking that much with me.

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