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MRmehman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:59 pm 
 

Before we start, please try to be respectful to other users. The last thread turned into a dumpster fire.

http://teamrock.com/news/2017-10-13/all ... -with-rape:

Quote:
Decapitated members Michal Lysejko, Waclaw Kieltyka, Rafal Piotrowski and Hubert Wiecek formally charged with rape in Spokane, Washington
Get everything Decapitated related here
All four members of Decapitated have been formally charged with rape.
They were arrested in Santa Ana, California, and held on suspicion of kidnapping and were later accused of gang-raping a woman following a show in Spokane, Washington, in August.

All four were held at a Los Angeles jail and were recently extradited to Spokane and charged with kidnapping in the first-degree, with the Spokesman-Review now reporting that Michal Lysejko, Waclaw Kietlyka, Rafal Piotrowski and Hubert Wiecek have now been formally charged with rape.

Piotrowski and Kieltyka have been charged with second-degree rape, while Lysejko and Wiecek face a third-degree charge.
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Rasha_yad
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:15 pm 
 

Bummer. I hope it's not true.

What happened in the previous thread?

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jimbies
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:26 pm 
 

Rasha_yad wrote:
Bummer. I hope it's not true.

What happened in the previous thread?


It was a horrible battle of victim blaming vs. crucifying the band before being proven guilty. Regardless of what your "take" is, no one except the people involved know for sure. We should all try to be respectful of that.

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Warty_basaloid
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:33 pm 
 

Not something you want to be involved in. So they're basically stuck in the USA now until this goes to court?

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MRmehman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:46 pm 
 

Warty_basaloid wrote:
Not something you want to be involved in. So they're basically stuck in the USA now until this goes to court?


I'm pretty sure that's how it works. There's no way they could risk them fleeing to Poland or anywhere else.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:22 pm 
 

Hey maybe we could not give a shit about the respect for other users and have some respect for the alleged victim by not turning this into a commentary on the current state of heavy metal. This isn't something that happened "in metal". This is something that happened in real life. It's fucking awful and there's absolutely nothing to discuss.
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Rasha_yad
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:52 pm 
 

Jonpo wrote:
Hey maybe we could not give a shit about the respect for other users and have some respect for the alleged victim by not turning this into a commentary on the current state of heavy metal.

Respect? You think she's gonna read this thread and feel disrespected if people talk too much about metal and not enough about her?

Quote:
This isn't something that happened "in metal". This is something that happened in real life. It's fucking awful and there's absolutely nothing to discuss.

Yes, but we don't know what happened. And obviously people will speculate about it because people are people. If you think there's nothing to discuss, you don't have to post in this thread.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:46 pm 
 

Jonpo is right, it's pretty awful how people are turning a rape case into "oh, so sad for the state of metal." What a fucking insipid, sheltered viewpoint that is. So far it looks like they did it and there's no reason to believe otherwise, so if you want to talk about metal, it's good that terrible people like them are not in the scene any longer.
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MRmehman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:56 pm 
 

Jonpo wrote:
Hey maybe we could not give a shit about the respect for other users and have some respect for the alleged victim by not turning this into a commentary on the current state of heavy metal. This isn't something that happened "in metal". This is something that happened in real life. It's fucking awful and there's absolutely nothing to discuss.


There's plenty to discuss and I don't see how doing that is in anyway offensive to the victim or band. Something horrible has happened, it's likely changes will be made to protect both bands and fans in the future, as shitty as that seems to some. Were threads (or discussion in general) on Dimebag Darrell's murder or the Randy Blythe manslaughter case being shut down for fear of offending the victim? No. People looked at what happened and changes were made, which is partly why similar events haven't happened since. It's important, no matter where you stand or what you think the outcome of this will be to talk about it publicly so nothing similar to this happens again, or at least some similar incidents are avoided in the future.

I'm not trying to make a spectacle or light of a horrible thing like this, I said as much in my first post but I probably should have made it clearer. Seeing how the last thread devolved into little more than name calling, I wanted to remind everyone that there's different opinion out there and calling someone a shithead over the internet isn't going to change their views.
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Rasha_yad
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:04 pm 
 

MRmehman wrote:
Seeing how the last thread devolved into little more than name calling, I wanted to remind everyone that there's different opinion out there and calling someone a shithead over the internet isn't going to change their views.

Neither is permabanning them.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:09 pm 
 

MRmehman wrote:
Jonpo wrote:
Hey maybe we could not give a shit about the respect for other users and have some respect for the alleged victim by not turning this into a commentary on the current state of heavy metal. This isn't something that happened "in metal". This is something that happened in real life. It's fucking awful and there's absolutely nothing to discuss.


There's plenty to discuss and I don't see how doing that is in anyway offensive to the victim or band. Something horrible has happened, it's likely changes will be made to protect both bands and fans in the future, as shitty as that seems to some. Were threads (or discussion in general) on Dimebag Darrell's murder or the Randy Blythe manslaughter case being shut down for fear of offending the victim? No. People looked at what happened and changes were made, which is partly why similar events haven't happened since. It's important, no matter where you stand or what you think the outcome of this will be to talk about it publicly so nothing similar to this happens again, or at least some similar incidents are avoided in the future.

I'm not trying to make a spectacle or light of a horrible thing like this, I said as much in my first post but I probably should have made it clearer. Seeing how the last thread devolved into little more than name calling, I wanted to remind everyone that there's different opinion out there and calling someone a shithead over the internet isn't going to change their views.


Well the point isn't to worry about "offending the victim," it's just that it's weird and insensitive if people are talking more about "a dark time for metal" or something like that. I don't relate to that at all. I doubt it will really do anything to metal. What's important is that sexual predators and rapists not be excused or let off the hook.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:11 pm 
 

No I misunderstood, clearly. He created this thread with the intention being meaningful discussion on "changes" that will be made to protect the bands and fans in the future...
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tahu157
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:14 pm 
 

So, they've been charged but not found guilty? As in, the hearings and whatnot have yet to happen? Did I read that right?

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PvtNinjer
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:15 pm 
 

I don't really see thinking that this event is something horrible that happened to a real person in real life and a dark moment in metal as mutually exclusive.

Anyway, this whole thing is gross and, like any public rape case, is going to be a huge shitshow and bring out the troglodytes. If they are guilty I hope they rot.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:17 pm 
 

tahu157 wrote:
So, they've been charged but not found guilty? As in, the hearings and whatnot have yet to happen? Did I read that right?


Yeah, that is how it always works.
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PvtNinjer
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:18 pm 
 

Say what!?

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tahu157
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:20 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
tahu157 wrote:
So, they've been charged but not found guilty? As in, the hearings and whatnot have yet to happen? Did I read that right?


Yeah, that is how it always works.

I know that's how it works but for reason when I read the title of this thread my mind changed it from "charged with rape" to "found guilty of rape." Only after reading some of the replies did it dawn on me that I read it wrong. Just wanted to confirm.

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jimbies
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:24 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Jonpo is right, it's pretty awful how people are turning a rape case into "oh, so sad for the state of metal." What a fucking insipid, sheltered viewpoint that is. So far it looks like they did it and there's no reason to believe otherwise, so if you want to talk about metal, it's good that terrible people like them are not in the scene any longer.


I'm on this side.

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MRmehman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:26 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Well the point isn't to worry about "offending the victim," it's just that it's weird and insensitive if people are talking more about "a dark time for metal" or something like that. I don't relate to that at all. I doubt it will really do anything to metal. What's important is that sexual predators and rapists not be excused or let off the hook.


To be honest, that's fair enough. I changed the text.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:56 pm 
 

I guess Emp has a gift. I appreciate it.
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MRmehman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:04 pm 
 

Jonpo wrote:
I guess Emp has a gift. I appreciate it.


Gutting that part works better anyway, should have been like that to start with. Can I get my wanker privileges revoked now?
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Shadoeking
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:57 pm 
 

MRmehman wrote:
Warty_basaloid wrote:
Not something you want to be involved in. So they're basically stuck in the USA now until this goes to court?


I'm pretty sure that's how it works. There's no way they could risk them fleeing to Poland or anywhere else.


Yes, this is how it works. Even if they were to be bonded out, they would not likely be free to leave the state. That is typically a condition for bond. Most of my own clients charged with serious crimes like this tend to not be allowed to leave the state. Every once in awhile I can convince a judge to allow a client to leave the state for exceptional circumstances, but no judge is going to allow them to leave the country.

I will be very interested in following this case.
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Required Fields
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:17 pm 
 

I really hope they're not guilty, because if they are, it leaves another scar on the metal scene. Many people who are enemies of metal who have heard about the case are blaming the music. Would they do the same for country music? Never.

I made a video about the drama on my YouTube channel. Let me know what you think.

Youtube: show
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:23 pm 
 

Jonpo wrote:
Hey maybe we could not give a shit about the respect for other users and have some respect for the alleged victim by not turning this into a commentary on the current state of heavy metal. This isn't something that happened "in metal". This is something that happened in real life. It's fucking awful and there's absolutely nothing to discuss.

Jonpo is the fucking truth bomber today.

This is awful. Listening to Winds of Creation isn't gonna be the same from now onwards, knowing that one of the minds behind it is a shitbag rapist.
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Required Fields
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:35 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
Jonpo wrote:
Hey maybe we could not give a shit about the respect for other users and have some respect for the alleged victim by not turning this into a commentary on the current state of heavy metal. This isn't something that happened "in metal". This is something that happened in real life. It's fucking awful and there's absolutely nothing to discuss.

Jonpo is the fucking truth bomber today.

This is awful. Listening to Winds of Creation isn't gonna be the same from now onwards, knowing that one of the minds behind it is a shitbag rapist.


That is, if they are indeed guilty. Innocent until proven guilty.

If they do turn out to be guilty, what is the most similar album to Winds of Creation (or 2000s era Decapitated, for that matter), so I have someone else to turn to for this type of death metal? I tried asking in another thread, but got no response from anyone.
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:08 pm 
 

Required Fields wrote:
That is, if they are indeed guilty. Innocent until proven guilty.

"Innocent until proven guilty" only applies to the legal aspect of somebody's guilt. That is, from a legal perspective, it is the prosecutor's job to assume innocence as the default state and produce evidence that finds the accused party guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It also means you cannot, as a legal body, strip an accused person of rights which they would still possess if they were innocent, such as torturing them to procure a confession or denying them their right to counsel.

It does not apply to social contexts in the slightest. We, as laypeople with no legal say in the matter, are free to assume whatever the heck we want at any point in the legal process. And you might argue that it is our moral obligation to maintain that suspects are "innocent until proven guilty", independent of the legal sphere, but to that I would rebut that the default circumstances change when we talk about rape, a crime where the balance of power between the victim and the accused has historically been substantially skewed in the suspect's favor. With this in mind, we are well within our rights and reason to assume guilt in support of the victim, provided that we are not advocating for some sort of extrajudicial punishment like a lynch mob.
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nekrosonic
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:25 pm 
 

^ Not advocating a lynch mob here but definitely not listening to this band anymore. Read the stories, made up my own mind. These guys are scum.

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Required Fields
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:29 pm 
 

nekrosonic wrote:
^ Not advocating a lynch mob here but definitely not listening to this band anymore. Read the stories, made up my own mind. These guys are scum.


What if they are found not guilty?
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nekrosonic
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:47 pm 
 

^ It will be because they have good lawyers, or she has a shitty attorney, or because there is no justice in the judicial system.

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jimbies
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:48 pm 
 

Required Fields wrote:
I really hope they're not guilty, because if they are, it leaves another scar on the metal scene. Many people who are enemies of metal who have heard about the case are blaming the music


Again, I don't think this is an appropriate reason to hope for them to be not guilty.

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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:48 pm 
 

Required Fields wrote:
nekrosonic wrote:
^ Not advocating a lynch mob here but definitely not listening to this band anymore. Read the stories, made up my own mind. These guys are scum.


What if they are found not guilty?

If they were truly found demonstrably innocent, then I would owe the band an apology for assuming they were responsible, and that's all I think we're obligated to do as regular citizens who had no ability to shape the outcome of the case. I think this hyper-skeptic "innocent until proven guilty" outlook is extremely unhealthy because it leads to this mindset where the victim deserves absolutely no sympathy until their abuser is convicted. Think of how much people have to put on the line to even come forward about something like this - you have to pay out the ass for attorney fees (EDIT: guess not, see below) and you know fans of the band are going to hate you for "ratting the band out" or "ruining a good thing". The victims have to acknowledge this and try to move on with their life while every poindexter with a working Internet connection chimes in with "well, they could be lying, let's just wait for the court to confirm what we've believed this entire time".

People never do this for murder, you'll notice. Even when there's a lack of a body, nobody ever says "hey, this guy said he chopped up this woman's son and ate him, but let's save this woman our sympathy until the jury makes absolutely sure she's not lying." This superficially legally-minded skepticism only ever comes into play when rape is involved. I wonder why that is?

Also, metal isn't going to become some stigmatized music that you have to buy in brown paper bags just because some rapists played death metal. It's funny how metalheads refuse to give up their tired stereotypes of rape, murder and blasphemy as lyrical themes, citing the need for the music to be subversive and offensive to match the intensity of the music, while simultaneously always getting nervous that somebody is going to take actual offense and think less of/persecute people who listen to it. Make up your minds!
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Shadoeking
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:58 pm 
 

nekrosonic wrote:
^ It will be because they have good lawyers, or she has a shitty attorney, or because there is no justice in the judicial system.


She won't have an attorney, other than the prosecutor. This is not a civil case.
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Razakel
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:31 am 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
Also, metal isn't going to become some stigmatized music that you have to buy in brown paper bags just because some rapists played death metal. It's funny how metalheads refuse to give up their tired stereotypes of rape, murder and blasphemy as lyrical themes, citing the need for the music to be subversive and offensive to match the intensity of the music, while simultaneously always getting nervous that somebody is going to take actual offense and think less of/persecute people who listen to it. Make up your minds!


This is a wonderfully articulated point.

Honestly, following this story from the beginning, it's a sobering reminder of why most rape victims don't come forward and press charges. The fact that the metal community seems to be infatuated with defending the band for the sake of "supporting metal," rather than supporting the victim, is disgusting. I know they haven't been proven guilty, but the prevailing mentality is just shocking.

@Required Fields: Think about what you're saying and implying.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:50 am 
 

Razakel wrote:
MutantClannfear wrote:
Also, metal isn't going to become some stigmatized music that you have to buy in brown paper bags just because some rapists played death metal. It's funny how metalheads refuse to give up their tired stereotypes of rape, murder and blasphemy as lyrical themes, citing the need for the music to be subversive and offensive to match the intensity of the music, while simultaneously always getting nervous that somebody is going to take actual offense and think less of/persecute people who listen to it. Make up your minds!


This is a wonderfully articulated point.

Honestly, following this story from the beginning, it's a sobering reminder of why most rape victims don't come forward and press charges. The fact that the metal community seems to be infatuated with defending the band for the sake of "supporting metal," rather than supporting the victim, is disgusting. I know they haven't been proven guilty, but the prevailing mentality is just shocking.


Yup. It's like they're just trying to make up some way they can insert themselves into the drama.

Required Fields, man, you are coming off like you inherently don't believe rape victims. Not a good look.
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schizoid
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:52 am 
 

Had to google the difference between 2nd and 3rd degree rape. Still a little confused to how the charges can vary between band members.

Going by the story however, seems likely at least someone will be convicted.
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Dettigers
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:11 am 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
It does not apply to social contexts in the slightest. We, as laypeople with no legal say in the matter, are free to assume whatever the heck we want at any point in the legal process. And you might argue that it is our moral obligation to maintain that suspects are "innocent until proven guilty", independent of the legal sphere, but to that I would rebut that the default circumstances change when we talk about rape, a crime where the balance of power between the victim and the accused has historically been substantially skewed in the suspect's favor. With this in mind, we are well within our rights and reason to assume guilt in support of the victim, provided that we are not advocating for some sort of extrajudicial punishment like a lynch mob.


And this is where I will say you have no idea who is telling the truth. So do I side with the vicitim? No. Do I side with Decapitated? No. I said with what the legal process is they are innocent until proven guilty.

Maybe read up on the Duke Lacrosse Scandal and why jumping on either side is a bad idea until all the facts come out in court. In other words all you have is a he said she said. Those are not facts.

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Dettigers
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:15 am 
 

nekrosonic wrote:
^ It will be because they have good lawyers, or she has a shitty attorney, or because there is no justice in the judicial system.




There is stuff I would say about this but

:nono: that says it all about what you just posted.


Quote:
I think this hyper-skeptic "innocent until proven guilty" outlook is extremely unhealthy because it leads to this mindset where the victim deserves absolutely no sympathy until their abuser is convicted.


It's not hyper-skeptic. Do you have all the facts? No so until you do they are innocent until proven guilty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

Really I'm telling you read that damn case. The woman lied and the District Attorney knew it and was with holding that information. When it came out well Mike Nifong lost is career and the woman Crystal Mangum is in prison. It's called waiting for facts to come out. You have very little to know facts about the case as a whole. So to say just believe the victim how about we sit back and wait to see who is telling the truth and who is not.

I'm not taking either side did the band do it? Maybe they did. Maybe they did not. Until it goes to court though they are innocent so I will take the side of the justice system and wait.

Quote:
Honestly, following this story from the beginning, it's a sobering reminder of why most rape victims don't come forward and press charges. The fact that the metal community seems to be infatuated with defending the band for the sake of "supporting metal," rather than supporting the victim, is disgusting. I know they haven't been proven guilty, but the prevailing mentality is just shocking.


I'm supporting the justice system the band has not even had there day in court. I'm sorry but I don't support mob rule. I support the US Constitution and the justice system. I know that's hard for people to get there heads around. But the facts are all you have is any opinion. Until this goes to court saying we should just believe what the victim says. That could lead to another https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case.

Or a case like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stinney#Reopening_of_case

and there are many more cases like that.

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MawBTS
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:31 am 
 

The band (or their representatives) have posted a message on Facebook.

Quote:
An update – following extradition from California to Washington, the band has now been charged. We’d like to emphasise; the Spokane Police Department has pressed charges as procedural formality, without doing so, they would be forced to release band – this is not a conviction or any indication of guilt or innocence. Once again, we ask that everyone wait for each party’s case to be presented and await the court’s decision. With that said, whilst cases are being prepared on both sides, some facts are indisputable at this point – that the original officer who took the complaint from the accuser stated, "I do not have probable cause that a rape occurred”, and it’s taken a full 30 days to file charges, which is right up against the point at which the defendants would legally have had to be released.
The band firmly refutes the allegations and are confident that once the facts and evidence have been seen and heard, they will be released and able to return home.
Individuals who were present on the night in question with information about the case are asked to reach out to the defense lawyer, Steve Graham of Spokane, Washington.


So apparently it's just a procedural thing.

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Hey maybe we could not give a shit about the respect for other users and have some respect for the alleged victim by not turning this into a commentary on the current state of heavy metal.


I don't agree: we absolutely should turn this into commentary on the current state of heavy metal. We need to learn from this, and take its lessons to heart so we can behave better next time. Sadly, there absolutely will be a next time.

This isn't some tiny local band, Decapitated are about as big as extreme metal gets. Vogg in particular is friends with basically everyone from Meshuggah to Ola Englund. Are all of them going to turn their backs on him? What happens to his sponsors? Will they disavow him?

This is a fascinating case that I honestly can't think of a parallel to (an entire major-label band getting charged with rape). It's sui generis, and I'm curious as to how far the fallout spreads.

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MawBTS
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:16 am
Posts: 642
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:45 am 
 

Quote:
I'm supporting the justice system the band has not even had there day in court. I'm sorry but I don't support mob rule. I support the US Constitution and the justice system. I know that's hard for people to get there heads around. But the facts are all you have is any opinion. Until this goes to court saying we should just believe what the victim says. That could lead to another https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case.


Dude, nobody here thinks that women never lie about rape. Nobody thinks the band is guilty with 100% certainty. Nobody thinks they should go to prison without a trial.

You're arguing against a bunch of shit nobody has said.

We're just saying that given the evidence against them (multiple women giving testimony, injuries documented by the police, the band members contradicting each other) we have a strong opinion about what the outcome of the case will be.

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MutantClannfear
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 3003
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:51 am 
 

@Dettigers: Obviously I know that false rape accusations happen sometimes, so you can spare me your examples. They don't do anything to change the fact that it is much more likely that a person be raped and their rapist never be brought to justice, than it is for somebody to falsely accuse somebody of rape and ruin that person's life. The utilitarian approach to this would suggest that, if we must unilaterally side with the accuser or the accused in cases of rape, siding with the accuser would minimize the adverse effect overall. So yeah, no, still not gonna sit back and say "let's just wait it out" when people claim they were raped. Sorry.

I mean, if a woman clearly was raped and her rapist is acquitted, for whatever reason, do you just say "well, the justice system did its job here and I have nothing more to add?" When OJ Simpson was found not guilty, did you run out to the streets screaming "THE TRUTH IS OUT, JUSTICE HAS PREVAILED"? Hell no - you form an opinion outside of the legal ruling all the time, which is exactly what people are doing here and they have every right to do so too. Your posts here reek of melodrama. Accusing a bunch of people typing on a heavy metal forum to be "supporting mob rule", invoking the U.S. Constitution (???)... sounds like you're just reaching for any reason to not think of Decapitated as possibly being guilty, really.
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