It's amusing how people often slander Watain for the lack of originality, but is this really justified? The music while being influenced by Mayhem, Dissection, Master's Hammer, Bathory, Necrovore etc. sounds nothing like those bands. Just take Casus Luciferi as an example. The tremelo riffs found on that album are played in a completely different key than those on De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas. Most Watain riffs are easily recognizable as just that, which is as close to originality as you can get within this genre. The bands imagery and graphic design has been highly influential as well, and the lyrics among the best written within the genre. They are boiling with great metaphors, complex theological content all draped in a detailed, and dare I say "beautiful", language. It's obvious that they've spent thousands of hours working on everything within and around the band. The attention to detail is nothing less but staggering. So where is that supposed lack of depth you speak of?



Exactly. It takes both will and work to understand certain things. This is not art for the ignorant.

I already explained they ways in which I find that they lack in originality. If you re-read my post you might see the arguments again. Lack of originality does not necessarily mean that they are copycats however.

You obviously disagree with me thinking Watain produces something truly deep - I would not expect anything less from a fan of the band but again I do not agree.



Ah yes, the black metal elitism rears its ugly head. I appreciated the initial part of your post where you actually tried to explain your feel for the music. However to then defend the music by saying that we who do not particularly love it (again I dont think Watain is a bad band just uninteresting, uninspiring and boring) are ignorant seems to just ignore the thing we call personal taste. Perhaps you think there are objectively good music on a scale which is the same for everyone at all times. I do not and therefore I would never call anyone ignorant for not liking something that I appreciate.

I would agree with you that some of the cover art is pretty great. Im not sure who started the trend to do that style but if it was Watain I will give them credit for that.

As for the complex theological content in the lyrics I'd definately beg to differ. I have studied both religion and philosophy at the university for 3 years full time (and for most of my teens and adult life). What Watain presents are definately not complex metaphysics or theology. At times they sure touch on interesting subjects but the actual content is not eybrow raising or particularly impressive.

Don't dodge the question. Define depth.



No. The same could be said for any art transcending the mundane. It's like discussing LSD without ever having tried it. I have very little respect for that.



Exactly.



What is impressive to you?

Casus Luciferi sounds like Wolf's Lair Abyss mixed with The Somberlain. The most prominent part of the music, to me, is that the influences are so overt that it's a distraction from the music. The structuring and movement of the songs is considerably less interesting than the music they imitate.

Now let's put that to the test:

Wolf's Lair Abyss: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ih9GSdEnbE

The Somberlain: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZGpK1wXJjc

Casus Luciferi: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=634ihz0S-DA

I bought every one of these albums as they came out and I've heard them at least a thousand times. I can even play a few tracks off of each of them, and let me tell you, they are no more alike than Metallica are to Slayer.

I already told you to go back and read the initial post by me that you reacted to. This time I can qote myself to make it a little easier for you:

"However I see no real depth in Watain. They are not original in anything they do whether it is the music performance, the lyrics, the image, the composition etc. This is fine if you bring something extra to the table, that certain spice that makes it worthwhile."

My main gripe is that they offer nothing new and exciting (a good example of a band that does this is Mayhem - with mixed results of course). They offer no original flavour to an old concept (a band that does this well is Drudkh on "blood in our wells" - the amazing bass playing and the addition of guitar solos to the Burzum esque folky black metal). Do you want a further definition or will this do? So they are not progressive and interesting that way and they are not spicing up an already proven concept either. To me there is little there to make things interesting. I did not make the comparison to The Somberlain or Wolfs Lair Abyss but the song you linked in regards to prove they do not sound the same could have been any competent but boring black metal band to me. There is nothing about it that screams Watain. Nothing of the personality other bands bring to the genre like Funeral Mist for example. When you hear Funeral Mist you know its them. Its clear from the very start. They have a personality to their music and an originality.

Remember I do not try to change your taste in music. Im fine with you loving Watain. I reply because of your attitude that anyone not appreciating them, having another opinion on the band, is somehow objectivly wrong in their musical taste.



Well, you can easily learn about things by observing and studying them. It is not the same as the experience of the subject but to discuss things we have not directly tried or had a direct experience with is certainly not impossible. I can easily analyze a game of snooker despite never haing even touch a snooker table. With your reasoning I would have to be of the same world view as that propagated by Watain to be able to appreciate their music. This goes against Emils own words on what Watains music is supposed to be - a propaganda tool for the so called Satanic ideas that they stand for. The definition of propaganda is not to preach to the choir but rather to convert those who do not yet believe. And regardless of this discussion, great art trancends limits and reaches out creating emotion whether is be positive or negative. Great art never creates indifference however.



So did they originate this style of art? Do you know?



What I reacted to was your words that Watains lyrics feature "complex theological concepts". First off I'd like to ask you to refer me to what you find to be just that in Watains lyrics. I certainly could not find it. Furthermore I did dedicate some time a few years ago to studying the whole Satanism movement that grew out of the black metal scene. MLO to TotBL to the Rökkr and Pan centered texts. I studied the articles from the past (like "United Misanthopic Front" that they no longer are proud of and doesnt show off dues to the immature ideas, bad grammar and bad spelling) and how it developed (mainly making use of a more academic language but in promotion of, largely, the same ideas). The general thread through their brand of Satanism is however seriously misinterpreted ancient traditions put into a strictly, even hostile, dualistic worldview that had little to no basis in the mythologies actual content.

Is your question what I find impressive in theological content in black metal lyrics? Well, very little to be honest. I probably know of no band with impressive theological lyrics. Music and lyrics are seldom the place where theology and metaphysics have tenough room to even come close to be impressive. Or do you ask what I find to be impressive theological and metaphysical writers in general? In that case there are loads of them - few if any related to black metal or even Satanism at large however. Feel free to define what type and I might have some good suggestions for you.




Again, I want to mke clear that I dont listen to Watain so I am no one to judge the exact likeness of them to other bands. However bringing up the Metallica/Slayer comparison is a little like shooting yourself in the foot. Its not a world of difference between early Metallica and Slayer. In fact its quite similar even though the two of them had clear "musical personalities". Obviously they grew apart a lot during the years however.

you're arguing with a fanboy, and one of the "if you don't like it, it's clearly because you're either too dumb or too unenlightened" fanboys at that. might as well be pushing shit uphill. he's already spouted his anus-lite nonsense about needing to "work" on it to grasp its depth, and likened the band to writers of psalms. you can't win that. might as well smack your head into the wall.

I am a keyboard warrior and I enjoy discussing things .

I know the type of fan Frozen218 is (heck its obvious even from the nickname he uses). They occur everywhere with every band. Sometimes I enjoy speaking to them. But make no mistake, I wont bang my head against the wall when the point has been reached and I get no enjoyment out of it anymore.

I'll just have to say that I disagree with you completely.



It amazes me to read this from someone who claims to have "studied" this particular tradition. You clearly have no understanding of it at all. Academic or otherwise.



Watain's work is deeply tied to the Hebrew idea of prophecy and the "kabbalistic circuit". To get a full insight into the content you'd have to study both.



Agreed.



That is exactly why I used them as an example.



Quite an arrogant attitude coming from someone who claims to be above such pettiness.