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SweetLeaf95
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:14 pm 
 

That makes sense, it's kinda like "djent", where it isn't a genre, just a style of playing. I'll be honest, I don't even consider "speed metal" much of a genre, because it's more of a style of riffing that's used in many genres. Traditional, thrash, NWOBHM, power metal, etc. all use speed metal riffs.
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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:51 pm 
 

I totally agree with speed metal not being a real genre and being more a way of playing riffs. I think it's just "fast heavy metal" and as you said, it overlaps with other genres, especially thrash metal.
Plus, for some, Iron Maiden's "2 minutes to midnight" is considered speed metal, and for others Sarcofago's "Satanic lust" is as well...
Should there be a specific genre for just "heavy metal being played faster"?

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SweetLeaf95
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:11 pm 
 

You've got it to a T. Those are exactly what I would call speed metal. Even prog is tough to call a "genre", it's really just metal that is advanced technically, and pulls influence from non metal genres. Queensryche and Opeth are both prog but they sound nothing alike.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:15 am 
 

considering we are quite far down the rabbit hole with slam bands that are influenced by slam bands influenced by slam. Slam evolved into a very specific sound that that i dont even really wanna call BDM anymore.

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Andreas_Hansen
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:27 am 
 

SweetLeaf95 wrote:
That makes sense, it's kinda like "djent", where it isn't a genre, just a style of playing. I'll be honest, I don't even consider "speed metal" much of a genre, because it's more of a style of riffing that's used in many genres. Traditional, thrash, NWOBHM, power metal, etc. all use speed metal riffs.


I totally agree. I use the term "speed metal" but I never use it alone because to me, "pure speed metal" doesn't exist. Bands like Exciter or Agent Steel are just regular heavy or thrash bands with speed riffing and parts... Speed metal is more about a specific way of playing and composing than a proper sound itself actually.
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SweetLeaf95
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:38 am 
 

For sure, and I guess some people define where the line is differently. Judas Priest's "Exciter" is an obvious example, but I'd even go as far to say that Led Zeppelin's "Communication Breakdown" is kinda speed metal....
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Woutjinho
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 5:14 pm 
 

As far as power metal, yes it's vague, only a small number of bands fall under the discription. Fast, high pitched vocals and dragons, that's pretty much it.
Progressive metal doesn't say anything about the sound, only about the construction of the song. Is it really a genre? I'm not sure. Dillinger Escape Plan isn't considered as Progressive Metal but it has many uncommon time signatures, tempo changes and technical / chaotic riffs. Progressive metal bands should also need a genre to describe the sound.

tomcat_ha wrote:
considering we are quite far down the rabbit hole with slam bands that are influenced by slam bands influenced by slam. Slam evolved into a very specific sound that that i dont even really wanna call BDM anymore.


Still influenced by brutal death metal. Just because slam is slow, it should not be a subgenre of doom for example. So I don't understand your point. Yes, the bands take it to the extreme.
Compare Carcass and Gutalax being both Goregrind. There have been other influences.
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Andreas_Hansen
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:45 pm 
 

Woutjinho wrote:
As far as power metal, yes it's vague, only a small number of bands fall under the discription. Fast, high pitched vocals and dragons, that's pretty much it.
Progressive metal doesn't say anything about the sound, only about the construction of the song. Is it really a genre? I'm not sure. Dillinger Escape Plan isn't considered as Progressive Metal but it has many uncommon time signatures, tempo changes and technical / chaotic riffs. Progressive metal bands should also need a genre to describe the sound.


Well, let's say at least half of the power metal bands. A lot of them are also way more thrash or heavy-influenced and don't search for speed but heavy and slow, catchy riffs like Pegazus or some Jag Panzer or even Primal Fear stuff. Dragons? Meh... To be honest as far as I know power metal, dragons-themed lyrics are amongst the less common. I don't see clearly a modern power metal band talking about dragons and high fantasy stuff without being purely ironical like Twilight Force.

Whereas for prog... Your definition makes your doubt legit. But damn, I heard a radio podcast a few days ago about prog rock and metal on the radio (yup, the guy even put some Orphaned Land and Ihsahn songs in a popular radio show on a very mainstream media, that was fun) and he explained the origin of the prog music and even the word "prog" itself... I can't remember. But I think this was the reason why so many people do consider this genre as a real genre actually.

Let's call this "accessible metal"? To be honest if the structures are quite hard to get, I never felt a metal song was so easily-accessible than "Alley Cat" by Seventh Wonder. Probably the pop-vibes that emanate quite often.
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Woutjinho
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:30 pm 
 

Just an example to prove my stereotype about dragons. The number two 2010s power metal album at Sonemic. Never heard of them. https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album ... urrection/
The same goes for death metal and murder. The lyrics are common but not essential and genre defining. My point being there are many exceptions ofcourse.https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album ... urrection/
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Andreas_Hansen
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:49 am 
 

Don't clearly see where do you want to bring me to.
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Woutjinho
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:27 pm 
 

Lyrics are not genre defining, so my remark about dragons was ment to be funny because it's a stereotype. Though I agree power metal is a genre which often has different influences rather than straightforward power metal.
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Andreas_Hansen
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:29 pm 
 

Oh okay. Without the tonality of the voice I wasn't able to say if it was irony or not, now I get your point haha. Yes on that point I agree with you.
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Woutjinho
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:50 pm 
 

I'm a bit confused with war metal. I'm not sure why it would qualify as a genre because it's just a black and death metal fusion. Blackened death is also a way of describing this fusion, though it's not considered to be an actual genre is it? The Gothenburg sound isn't a genre either. Some use last.fm as their point of reference and in that case new wave of blackened suicidal vampire metal is considered as a genre. When a certain quantity of bands distinct themselves with a certain sound you can speak of a genre, which might be the case for war metal. But is their sound distinct enough? Opinions?

https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/War+metal
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Andreas_Hansen
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:18 pm 
 

I never considered "war metal" as a real genre. To me as you said it's just a mix between blackened death but with a very raw production. But Blackened Death is a real genre to me, in the sense that there are some bands that mix so well both of the genres that you can't dissociate them, for instance with Behemoth or Melechesh, how would you call them then?

I think the Gothenburg sound was just the old way of saying for melodeath. I don't see any band nowadays using this term.
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:58 pm 
 

This is a message I think this whole thread would do well to heed.

Whether or not you consider war metal, or slam death metal, or speed metal, or whatever other micro-scene to be a "genre" depends on your personal standards on what is and isn't a genre. Maybe you think that even though these bands sound similar, they can't be dissociated from their overarching ideas and that disqualifies them from being genres. But with the three I mentioned above, and with almost any term that you see being used as often as those three, it will be the case that they actually do mean something that can be distinguished from other, superficially similar bands. I see a lot of people who say "this isn't a genre" somewhat dismissively, implying that there was never anything in common with bands labeled with a certain term to begin with, and I want to discourage such black-and-white approaches to music.

War metal bands in particular have a very specific sound and aesthetic that can be identified from a mile away. It's not just black metal + death metal in the sense that Belphegor or God Dethroned are, it's an incredibly simplified version of both with the black metal influence coming from raw, barbaric bands like Von and Beherit. The songwriting is very unique to this movement, you can't tell me these bands don't have a similar sound that's pretty distinct from other blackened death metal.

Spoiler: show
Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show


A different genre? Debatable. But here's some food for thought: it would be very possible to love all war metal and dislike stereotypical "blackened death metal", and vice versa.
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Last edited by MutantClannfear on Sun May 27, 2018 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:11 pm 
 

war metal in essence is the evolution of 80s extreme metal. Before death and black metal formed as we know it today. Some bands lean more towards the thrash(vomitor) some more to death metal(impiety) some more to black metal(archgoat) That aside the Canadian/rossbay verison of war metal also got a pretty strong grindcore element too.

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Andreas_Hansen
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:24 pm 
 

I'm a bit skeptical when it comes to the use of some genres like this war metal. In a sense I don't like the way how genres are popping these days (I know war metal exists for a long time, I'm speaking more generally) like it's if bands were searching for uniqueness and recognition and invention before actually making music. It is also very confusing, as we come to several superficial genres to describe one thing.

But in another sense if "symphonic industrial folk medieval raw black" describes the music well enough, well why not.
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 8:33 am 
 

Andreas_Hansen wrote:
But in another sense if "symphonic industrial folk medieval raw black" describes the music well enough, well why not.

Because that thing you just wrote is 13 syllables long and nobody wants to write all that out? I understand your concern about the self-framing, limiting effect that a genre can have, but genres can have a positive effect on creativity too, because some bands will say “okay, we want to make war metal, BUT with slower doomier parts and symphonics”. How would somebody have stumbled onto that combination without some sort of referent microgenre to get them 60% of the way there?

It seems unfair for you to just point to something that’s been accepted as a standard term, something that people use with a distinct meaning that everyone agrees on, and say “this isn’t a REAL genre! it’s just uhhhHHHH PRIMITIVE BLACK/DEATH!” If people give it meaning and enough people use it, it has meaning, end of story. Doesn’t matter what any one person thinks.
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Andreas_Hansen
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:25 am 
 

I said I was a bit skeptical. Not against such popular uses. I was just questioning some appellations but meh, if you think I'm against the popular use of genres I don't know, well...

So according to your definition we all should call Rings of Saturn "aliencore"? They first used this term jokingly but I see more and more people using it. Is it still legitimate?
And such a definition is very subjective.
Quote:
and enough people use it

You know I have the same problem there with linguistics and the use of a word that one could considerate as wrong. But actually it depends on what you call enough. How much? People won't have for sure the same idea of "enough people".

Quote:
but genres can have a positive effect on creativity too, because some bands will say “okay, we want to make war metal, BUT with slower doomier parts and symphonics”.

Don't clearly see where you want to bring me to. If they want to create such a genre that's because they had in the first place the idea of making such music?

Quote:
Doesn’t matter what any one person thinks.

Well you just told me that if people give to a genre a meaning and enough use it, it is legit. So they shouldn't be legit actually?
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:57 am 
 

You must realize that my last post (and this one) were typed up on my phone, and I provided somewhat abbreviated forms of my opinions for the sake of saving my thumbs, as well as not wanting to drown you in walls of text.
Andreas_Hansen wrote:
So according to your definition we all should call Rings of Saturn "aliencore"? They first used this term jokingly but I see more and more people using it. Is it still legitimate?
And such a definition is very subjective.

No, for the very simple reason that Rings of Saturn are the only band that have ever used or been classified with the term. If there were a bunch of bands playing similar music with a similar aesthetic, you might be able to make a case for it being a genre. But no matter how many people use it, if it only describes one band, it’s just a synonym for Rings of Saturn. That being said, there are cases of genres being 90% one band; see Zeuhl.

Andreas_Hansen wrote:
You know I have the same problem there with linguistics and the use of a word that one could considerate as wrong. But actually it depends on what you call enough. How much? People won't have for sure the same idea of "enough people".

Right, of course, there’s no codified number of people that have to use it before it becomes a word. That’s why, from the linguistic perspective, it’s a descriptive matter - if we see people using this word in isolated conversations, it’s a word, QED.

Andreas_Hansen wrote:
Don't clearly see where you want to bring me to. If they want to create such a genre that's because they had in the first place the idea of making such music?

I just mean that genres can also serve as a creative anchor for future music. Let me use a different analogy: if you told a man with average exposure to literature to write books, it’s very unlikely that they’d stumble upon making a masterpiece of cosmic horror literature without some external prompting, because the idea is too far out. But if you gave them a couple dozen pieces of essential cosmic horror books to read first, they’d be much more able to use that genre as an anchor and write to fit it, expanding upon the tropes as they go. It would be much harder for them to create a masterpiece of, say, books where the protagonist experiences loss, because that has never been categorized into a genre, so you would have no genre canon around which to take your creativity.

Andreas_Hansen wrote:
Well you just told me that if people give to a genre a meaning and enough use it, it is legit. So they shouldn't be legit actually?

The key word here is “one”. One person saying something doesn’t make it a word. One person not saying something doesn’t change the fact that it might be a word. But a group of people saying something and agreeing on its meaning makes it a word. I know you don’t agree with this linguistic approach, but this is modern science’s current consensus on how the formation of “words” in a sociolinguistic sense works.
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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:50 am 
 

Like Andreas Hansen, I've got a problem with the abusive use of subgenres' name in metal which are not absolutely necessary.
But as for "war metal", I agree with the fact it's a distinctive type of black/death metal mix, but with this very specific chaotic and bestial sound which incorporates thrash metal and grindcore influences.
That being said, Blasphemy would give the subgenre its paradigmatic form.

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Andreas_Hansen
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:19 pm 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
You must realize that my last post (and this one) were typed up on my phone, and I provided somewhat abbreviated forms of my opinions for the sake of saving my thumbs, as well as not wanting to drown you in walls of text.

OK. But actually I wouldn't mind.

OK as well for the "aliencore" stuff. Don't know the band you recommended to me, I'll check that out. Let's take another example then. Would you consider bands like Alestorm playing "pirate metal"?

Quote:
Right, of course, there’s no codified number of people that have to use it before it becomes a word. That’s why, from the linguistic perspective, it’s a descriptive matter - if we see people using this word in isolated conversations, it’s a word, QED.


True.

Your analogy makes sense. I actually write stuff myself and that's exactly how I came to writing, through a couple of books of rather the same genre that gave me a good idea of it. When it comes to music I understand a bit clearer now, but I still think it would be tough for these guys to create "real" new genres (meaning different, not a sub-subgenre) as most of them weren't created on purpose, rather by chance.


Andreas_Hansen wrote:
I know you don’t agree with this linguistic approach, but this is modern science’s current consensus on how the formation of “words” in a sociolinguistic sense works.


Obviously yes I agree with that. Linguistics is my thing. When I said "I have the same difficulties" (or something like that) I meant that, people disagree on that fact though I'm defending it. That's why in French for example, there are a lot of common expressions or words that are called "vulgar" and "which don't belong to the language" not because they're illogical but rather they aren't accepted by a structure, an Academy that is supposed to be the mirror of the language (quite ironic, isn't it).

So actually I disagreed on your point because I misread "one person". I understood it as "one's opinion isn't important" which wasn't making much sense. I didn't take the singular definition of "one" but the common's one. ("one does not simply walk into Mordor").
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Red_Death
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:29 am 
 

Andreas_Hansen wrote:
OK as well for the "aliencore" stuff. Don't know the band you recommended to me, I'll check that out. Let's take another example then. Would you consider bands like Alestorm playing "pirate metal"?

If I may chime in here, the case of "pirate metal" is similar to what MutantClannfear says about "aliencore" - if there were a number of bands playing a similar style (whatever that may be in case of Rings of Saturn) and sporting a distinct aesthetic, then the term could enter into wider circulation. But the thing is that the underlying criterion used would be wholly based on aesthetics. Consider Alestorm, a band whose music can be described well by other, already established, genre descriptors. Nothing about their music singles them out as a special case in a wider group, so you're left with what I already mentioned. And sure, that could be legitimate for some folks, but I wouldn't take that route of taking lyrics and imagery as an important factor in genre classification. It might be cynical, but the band's own "true pirate metal" thing comes across as nothing about marketing. I suspect I'd feel the same about Rings of Saturn. The point is that a group of people might find that classification ("pirate metal" and "aliencore") legitimate, and even argue for it cogently. Others would not, but there's no correct answer here as this isn't an issue where views can be said to be correct or incorrect.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:41 pm 
 

there is actually more potential for pirate metal to be a real thing than aliencore

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Andreas_Hansen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:46 pm 
 

To me, both are pointless and illustrate well this willing of making thousands of genres that haven't a real sense actually. Pirate metal doesn't describe a music at all. Would you lump Swashbuckle and Alestorm together? These bands have nothing in common, excepted the fact they're talking about pirates. But in that case let's call bands that deals with philosophy "philosophic metal" or power metal bands dealing with dragons "dragon metal". You can justify any genres with that and since it's already very complicated to agree with someone else just for a genre that describes a music (this thread is a good example) I think it's useless to add another bunch of genres that don't even describe music.

As for Alestorm calling itself "true Scottish pirate metal" I rather think it's made to mock on the abusive use of such genres. Alestorm is a band that never took itself seriously. No surprise that they're calling themselves with an ironical name.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:26 pm 
 

well pirate metal has more potential to be a real thing because there are is an actual folk music tradition associated with seafaring and that can possibly turned into a real genre if enough bands would do it. it would still be a micro sub niche of folk metal but still.

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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:45 am 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
well pirate metal has more potential to be a real thing because there are is an actual folk music tradition associated with seafaring and that can possibly turned into a real genre if enough bands would do it. it would still be a micro sub niche of folk metal but still.


I think that "cat metal", which is a micro-niche of "animal metal", has an even greater potential because the vocalists of these bands not only sing about cats' topics (meowing, eating varieties of grain and canned food, litter and many other cat activities), but use as well a mix of very high-pitched power metal vocals and black metal shrieks which sounds like someone happens to walk on a cat's tail. Rob Halford, the Metal God himself, is considered as a pioneer of the subgenre, as well as Hat of Gorgoroth.

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Andreas_Hansen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:32 am 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
well pirate metal has more potential to be a real thing because there are is an actual folk music tradition associated with seafaring and that can possibly turned into a real genre if enough bands would do it. it would still be a micro sub niche of folk metal but still.


Yeah, I can agree on your point with the fact that there are some elements in "pirate metal" that are actually directly linked to the traditional pirate music, for instance, the fast tempo that gives energy to the song, or some accordion or even the crowd singing that may remind pirates singing a song all together on a ship. The song "Keelhauled" from Alestorm would be a very good example. Problem is, most of the pirate metal bands we know are an Alestorm rip-off.

In that case pirate metal would be a thing. Thing is, such songs are actually quite rare. Most of the "pirate metal" songs don't really match the "traditional pirate song codes" like I hardly imagine pirates on a ship singing like Swashbuckle do...
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Kalimata
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:33 am 
 

Before talking of "pirate metal", have you ever listened to genuine pirate music? Or is it just the idea you have about what could have been pirate music?
If you know some authentic pirate music, them could you tell me which instruments did the play on their ships?

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Manic Maniac
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:12 pm 
 

It's called a sea song (or sea shanty when it's work related), not "pirate music". It largely derives from Anglo-British & American Music with some subtle African American/Caribbean influences. There is no instrumentation (at least not traditionally), just singing.
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Andreas_Hansen
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:44 am
Posts: 263
Location: Anywhere in the Galaxy
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:28 am 
 

So Van Canto would be the perfect pirate metal band?
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Manic Maniac
Grammaritically Challengated

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:58 pm
Posts: 201
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:34 pm 
 

Van Canto ain't metal of any kind, and they don't have the right kind of singing either, so their not really making sea songs. And no, it doesn't have to be instrumental-less, it just that the instruments don't define the genre. It's the melody, rhythm, style, and approach to singing that defines the genre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_shanty
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Kalimata
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:29 am
Posts: 38
Location: France
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:00 pm 
 

Then, i understand that no one has ever heard the original "melody, rhythm, style, and approach" that defined those old sea songs. The only idea we can have about it are modern representations of old scores, or folklore clichés as: "hey, there's an accordion and guys singing loud and deep about ships, beer, rhum and chicks, like in the pirate movies!" ... Come on guys! And please, we all agree that lyrical themes don't make a genre.
And as Manic Maniac said, theses sea songs's musical elements are not specificallly "pirate" at all.
In conclusion, there's absolutely no solid ground to make "pirate metal" a sub-genre. It just doesn't make any sense. Why not simply call it "folk metal"?

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Manic Maniac
Grammaritically Challengated

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:58 pm
Posts: 201
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:43 am 
 

What about celtic folk metal, oriental folk metal, pagan metal, and viking metal? Should we really just call those simply folk metal? Also pirate metal seems to be more power metal with pirate filmscore influences than folk metal.
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MDL
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:12 pm
Posts: 331
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:33 pm 
 

Celtic and Oriental are descriptors for the folk metal style, taking into account the instruments that are used and the musicality the bands produce. For example, we have Primordial or Eluveitie, whose folk metal music is incorporated with celtic music elements. On the other hand, we have Orphaned Land or Al-Namrood that implement oriental folk music elements on their folk metal.

Pagan Metal is a different genre, related with a rawer type of folk metal, frequently meeting black metal influences, both on vocal and riffing. For this, check bands such as Ancient Ritual or Bifrost. About viking metal, for what I've been hearing, I would say that is it a blend between folk metal + epic/heavy/power metal + extreme metal, even though the folkish parts, sometimes, might be generated by a specific type of guitar riffing. Check, for this, King of Asgard, Manegarm or Bathory.

Pirate metal is more like a made-up genre to refer music made by specific bands, specially Alestorm or Running Wild. Some other bands are starting to use that too, like Storm Seeker or Toter Fisch, but in my opinion, it is a very restricted niche that would not made up a new genre by itself. It's like the "kawaii metal" (Babymetal, Ladybaby) or "aliencore" (RoS, Aversions Crown) stuff.

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4670
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:59 am 
 

to me folk/black and pagan metal are the same thing.

Viking metal is manowar meets black metal by origin but then bands changed up this formula in various forms.

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