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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:40 am 
 

Deftones aren't really metal at all. Other than their more nu-metally early stuff, I'd call them an atmospheric/experimental alternative rock band. They're heavy sometimes, sure, and they've got those sort of dream pop/shoegaze influences, sure, but they aren't now and never have been a metal band.

The problem with the post-metal/atmospheric sludge thing is that "post-metal" implies some degree of post-rock influence, but then there's also Neurosis. Neurosis are basically the prototypical atmospheric sludge band, but much of the genre has basically replaced the dark folk/ambient parts of Neurosis with post-rock. There's still lots of overlap, but I would say choosing which one to use for a given band comes down to the ratio of post-rock to sludgier bits.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:58 am 
 

Ganondox wrote:
They are metal enough to be called metalgaze, are you saying all those metalcore bands are 100% metal as it has metal as a prefix? And most metalcore are far more metal than they are hardcore, -core is as much "hardcore" as metalcore needs in it's name. While Deftones isn't particularly metal, they are as metal as they are anything else, they are an experimental rock band.

Honestly, like iamntbatman said, they're not metal enough to be called metal anything. Most metalcore bands are more metal than that, and when they aren't, I guess hardcore is a more appropriate label? Anyway, I haven't heard any metalcore that wasn't considerably more metal than Deftones either by "virtue" of groove metal or melodeath riffs. Deftones isn't very riffy (mostly chords, hence rock is appropriate, I think, even if it's heavy), and what riffs they have don't sound anything like any kind of metal to me.
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severzhavnost
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:59 am 
 

MasterOfSin wrote:
There's not a problem, is just a thing that doesn't exist, nobody knows the borders of a genre even the pure heavy metal is not clearly defined (is my opinion), i past hours and hours to group my albuns per genre but is impossible ( i gave up).
And there's no solution. And mixing name genres to me is absurd i prefer to say "with influences of" than mixing names.


Yeah, I like to simplify it too. I could divide my albums into all kinds of blackened-death, melodic death, folk-black metal and so on; and did that for a while, but now I just prefer to use less specific names. I enjoy shuffling up a genre and having it last for days! With a few months worth of music I have, there's just 10 genre names in there.
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Ganondox
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:43 am
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:54 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
They are metal enough to be called metalgaze, are you saying all those metalcore bands are 100% metal as it has metal as a prefix? And most metalcore are far more metal than they are hardcore, -core is as much "hardcore" as metalcore needs in it's name. While Deftones isn't particularly metal, they are as metal as they are anything else, they are an experimental rock band.

Honestly, like iamntbatman said, they're not metal enough to be called metal anything. Most metalcore bands are more metal than that, and when they aren't, I guess hardcore is a more appropriate label? Anyway, I haven't heard any metalcore that wasn't considerably more metal than Deftones either by "virtue" of groove metal or melodeath riffs. Deftones isn't very riffy (mostly chords, hence rock is appropriate, I think, even if it's heavy), and what riffs they have don't sound anything like any kind of metal to me.


From White Pony
Youtube: show

It's the heaviest song to ever win a Grammy, and definitely has some groovy riffing going on. I think it's their heaviest song after their nu-metal work on Adrenaline and Around the Fur, but they've got plenty of other heavy riff-based songs in their post-White Pony era.
Youtube: show

Yes, they are definitely a rock band of some sort, but they are a really hard to classify one, and they definitely have some metal elements. It can't be said they took their riffing from nu metal, because they INVENTED nu metal. Korn made nu metal a thing, but Deftones did it first. The more things you mix together, the less it is any particular thing. If Rocket Skates is some sort of metal and Cherry Waves is some sort of shoegaze, I'm sure I could find some sort of metalgaze song by them, but the thing is the more shoegaze the song is, the less metal it is.

Oh, and I'd call most metalcore bands that are less metal post-hardcore, not true hardcore, I'd only consider a few metalcore bands to be actual hardcore, the metallic hardcore ones.

iamntbatman wrote:
Deftones aren't really metal at all. Other than their more nu-metally early stuff, I'd call them an atmospheric/experimental alternative rock band. They're heavy sometimes, sure, and they've got those sort of dream pop/shoegaze influences, sure, but they aren't now and never have been a metal band.

The problem with the post-metal/atmospheric sludge thing is that "post-metal" implies some degree of post-rock influence, but then there's also Neurosis. Neurosis are basically the prototypical atmospheric sludge band, but much of the genre has basically replaced the dark folk/ambient parts of Neurosis with post-rock. There's still lots of overlap, but I would say choosing which one to use for a given band comes down to the ratio of post-rock to sludgier bits.


Okay, so you're saying post-metal and atmospheric sludge are different things, they just have a huge amount of overlap?

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:36 am 
 

Yeah, I first heard that groovy riff in Elite in a Refused or Snapcase song, mate. I don't know what kind of bands inspired Deftones, as most bands with similar riffs were pretty much contemporary, but the metal influence is diminishingly small. Even the guitar production recalls some late 90s hardcore more than any metal back then.
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Ganondox
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:43 am
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:59 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Yeah, I first heard that groovy riff in Elite in a Refused or Snapcase song, mate. That's probably not even Deftones' most metal song.


Deftones is actually older than either of those bands, though the song Elite is newer and could have possibly been influenced by those bands.

This song?

Youtube: show


The album that song is from is listed as experimental rock, as is White Pony, as well as hardcore punk. I fail to see how it's hardcore punk in any way except the ethos, maybe I just don't get new hardcore. Old punk sounds nothing like that, and I think Refused made the point that it's punk by not following the established punk sound because nothing is more punk than not being punk. I don't really know anymore. When I think of a hardcore riff, it would be like "da-da-da-da-doo-doo-doo-doo" or "da-da-da-doo" (though metal sometimes does that as well, but in a different manner), maybe "da-doo-da-doo" on occasion but not "da-doo-da-doo-dun"....or whatever. Maybe the only difference between a groove metal riff and a hardcore riff if it it's played by a hardcore or a metal band. *shrug* Anyway, hardcore bands are known for taking riffs and melodies from heavy metal, that's the largest influence metal had on early hardcore.

Okay, I pulled out the tabs, and the heavy verse riff for New Noise is nearly identical to the Deftones intro one, though they are ever so slightly different. Actually, I think they are significantly different because from reading the tabs while listening to the song I think I was parsing the riffs on the wrong place and the Deftones riff is a more complicated riff made from two iterated layers of simpler riffs, whereas the New Noise riff is just a simple riff without a more complex riff being constructed from it. Anyway, it's the riffs that don't sound like the one in Elite that have a more distinctly hardcore sound in the New Noise song, like the production on the intro/verse riff (90's hardcore production sounds a lot more like 80's metal production than 80's hardcore production), and the chord pattern of the chorus and bridge riffs. For sake of comparison, Pantera has some riffs which are more complex than the elite riff, and some riffs which are simpler, though I noticed there are some riffs with the groovy structure like these songs, others with a more traditional metal riff structure. If anything the difference that stands out the most is Pantera's songs as a whole are more melodically complex, being based around more riffs with more variation between them. *shrug* I'm being way too analytical. All I know is Elite won the metal Grammy, so the media says it's metal.

As for Deftones influences, I have no freaking idea except for "everything", including both metal and hardcore. :P I can't find any specific bands. Wikipedia's sections have some sources, mainly from critics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deftones#M ... influences

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:30 pm 
 

Ganondox wrote:
When I think of a hardcore riff, it would be like "da-da-da-da-doo-doo-doo-doo" or "da-da-da-doo" (though metal sometimes does that as well, but in a different manner), maybe "da-doo-da-doo" on occasion but not "da-doo-da-doo-dun"....or whatever.


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why the word "stupid" is in the thread title.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:33 pm 
 

What did Deftones play before Korn became popular with their first album and music videos? Are there recordings that show that they played anything like nu metal before it became a popular thing?

We obviously give scarcely two shits what the media thinks. Slipknot won some best hard rock performance award once - that means they're hard rock, doesn't it? :P
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Grave_Wyrm
Metal Sloth

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:57 pm 
 

Ganondox wrote:
I'm being way too analytical.

Only in an "I won't accept that I'm wrong" sort of way. If you were really being analytical, you'd see that batman and Ilwhyan put the baby to bed.
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Ganondox
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:08 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
What did Deftones play before Korn became popular with their first album and music videos? Are there recordings that show that they played anything like nu metal before it became a popular thing?

We obviously give scarcely two shits what the media thinks. Slipknot won some best hard rock performance award once - that means they're hard rock, doesn't it? :P


While the band has been around since the late 80's (they formed in highschool), I don't think they have any actual released recordings from then, their first album didn't come out until after Korn's first album. Can't find any demos or tapes or anything, though some sort of four track demo does exist, even if it's unreleased. It is known they played with Korn since the latter band's beginning, and both bands mixed a wide variety of influences, so while they cited metal bands as influence they aren't exactly metal. Despite not having any albums before Korn, it was still released years before nu metal got popular, Adrenaline was the second nu metal album as far as I'm aware. Anyway, I've found some specific bands, the guitarist learned to play while playing along to various thrash metal bands like Metallica and Anthrax (source). Aside from that, I can find that the vocalist is influenced by Depoche Mode among other things. Apparently NIN is an influence, and everyone says Radiohead is as well. The band has always taken pride in it's wide range of influences and unique sound, the guitarwork obviously isn't thrash even if that was the guitar player's initial inspiration.

It was actually the metal grammy that Slipknot won, though they were nominated for the hard rock one once. The distinction between the two at the time was a complete joke, it seems random which songs they deemed metal and which hard rock. They all fall under the scope of "alternative metal", which is all the heavy rock that isn't quite metal OR hard rock.

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
I'm being way too analytical.

Only in an "I won't accept that I'm wrong" sort of way. If you were really being analytical, you'd see that batman and Ilwhyan put the baby to bed.


Haha no. Yes, I'll be more analytic when I being challenged, but when I'm proven wrong, I'll accept I'm wrong.

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mjollnir
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:36 pm 
 

Ganondox wrote:
They all fall under the scope of "alternative metal", which is all the heavy rock that isn't quite metal OR hard rock.


I'm sorry, and I know that folks here don't like the use of the word but there is nothing else to call it. It was music that was played loudly at your local Hot Topic store in the MALL and more based in CORE than anything. To call it Nu-metal was to imply there was some metal in there. Same with calling it Alternative Metal. As much as I don't like metalcore, in most cases the name is not misleading. There are some metal riffs!

I believe that Ganodox's whole mission here is to keep trying to make the case that his favorite mallcore bands are metal and should be included here. You can tell that by all of his posts.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:01 pm 
 

Ganondox, you're too stupid for the stupid genre question megathread. You're acting like a lawyer who is referring to poorly researched Wikipedia articles rather than laws. Please shut up. I'm sick of seeing the rantings of a grossly misinformed, pedantic teenager.

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Ganondox
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:17 am 
 

Spoiler: show
mjollnir wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
They all fall under the scope of "alternative metal", which is all the heavy rock that isn't quite metal OR hard rock.


I'm sorry, and I know that folks here don't like the use of the word but there is nothing else to call it. It was music that was played loudly at your local Hot Topic store in the MALL and more based in CORE than anything. To call it Nu-metal was to imply there was some metal in there. Same with calling it Alternative Metal. As much as I don't like metalcore, in most cases the name is not misleading. There are some metal riffs!

I believe that Ganodox's whole mission here is to keep trying to make the case that his favorite mallcore bands are metal and should be included here. You can tell that by all of his posts.


No, it's not -core in any way, shape, or form. The term mallcore is a joke, it came from the same origin as slowcore, just slapping -core on the end to be stupid and make fun of the genre. It's not based on the music, it's just based on the idea it's played at malls, which has absolutely nothing to do with the sound. Might as well call pop punk mallcore by that reasoning, it actually is descended from hardcore and is played at malls far more often. This is hardcore:
Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

Youtube: show

And while this band is metal, this song is hardcore as hell:
Youtube: show

It sounds nothing like "mallcore" other then being aggressive and relatively simplistic. You can find just as many similarities if not more with metal. If you use the term mallcore, no one can take you seriously has the term has always been a freaking joke. It's slang, not a formal term. It's understand to avoid the term alternative metal because it doesn't have a particular sound, but calling all alternative metal "mallcore" because you don't want to call it "metal" is freaking retarded. It's called alternative metal because it's metal influenced alternative rock, the term is actually related to the music. I've been listening to alternative rock my entire life (real alternative rock from the 80's as well as following decades, not Nickleback crap), and it's obvious you guys don't know shit about alternative rock. Alternative rock came out of the early post-hardcore scene, so it's a given alternative metal would have some connection to hardcore. In the 80's most music that wasn't metal influenced was deemed alternative rock, which is what makes the metal influence in alternative metal all the more pronounced. I don't have any "hidden" agendas aside from generally testing the waters, which so far have proven to be as cold as I thought they were. I already know you guys are too set in your ways to be convinced otherwise, and there is no way in hell you'd accept a nu metal band. I'm just discussing what is being discussed. Believe it or not, I actually got into metal through power metal, not nu metal or metalcore. I used to specifically avoid those genres because of their reputation among metalheads as being shitty (non-)metal, and while I don't particularly enjoy either genre, I've come to learn there actually is decent music in both genres and this elitism is just retarded.


Zodijackyl wrote:
Ganondox, you're too stupid for the stupid genre question megathread. You're acting like a lawyer who is referring to poorly researched Wikipedia articles rather than laws. Please shut up. I'm sick of seeing the rantings of a grossly misinformed, pedantic teenager.


I'm many things, but stupid is not one of them. I'm not stupid, I'm stubborn. The point is what you guys call hardcore sounds nothing like anything I know as being hardcore, and try to deny that there is any metal influence in music which is obviously metal influenced to some degree. It's completely idiotic, you don't even make logical arguments, you just insist you are correct and gave nebulous justifications. I'm probably being harsher on at least some of you then you deserve and there was some legitimate counters, but I'm pissed off over the focus on personal attacks over actual discussion. Why should I trust your verdicts now? It's an open discussion, everyone has opinions, everyone has knowledge that is worth sharing. You are the one who though I claimed punk came from psychedelic rock/blues rock and didn't even dispute the claim, even though if you bother to read I was clearly referring to hard rock, and punk rock clearly has nothing to do with psychedelia. THAT is stupid. I'd rather be pedantic than vapid and and use ignorance to justify arrogance. I probably misinformed in many things, but you aren't doing any job at dispelling misinformation and I KNOW you've spread some of your own. Guess what, try as hard as you might to make them, metal doesn't have laws. It's an idea older than you or me, not a concrete thing. I might be young and haven't listened to much 90's hardcore, but I've listened to a ton of music in my life of all sorts, though mainly rock, and have done just as much research, not just on wikipedia. I'm only referencing wikipedia because it's easier to dig up then other sources, but I've actually linked to an actual interview with an artist, proving that there is a metal influence unless Carpenter is a liar, which there is no reason to believe. In fact, I say wikipedia, which takes a wide range of views from random people as long as they have some sort of source to back them up, is far more accurate for subjective things like this than a select group of people who are selected based on conforming to a particular mindset. After all, random samples are far more accurate than biased ones. :P

If band says they are influenced and cite several metal bands as influences, it's probably because they are metal influenced as they have no reason to lie. Guess what, the general population doesn't associate metal with superiority, so they wouldn't slap on the term metal to make themselves look better. Metal was the opposite of cool in the 90's because of the embarrassment of glam "metal" and the raise of grunge. They say it's metal because it's clearly related to metal in some way that you apparently can't comprehend, while everyone else can. The term -core is applied to things which aren't hardcore all the time, so it means nothing that metal is applied to genres that aren't metal. Just ask the hardcore kids and the punks. I'm not saying anything is metal, just that it's metal influenced. I wasn't every trying to argue Deftones is a metal bands, just that some of their music could be considered "metalgaze". I've heard actual hardcore mixed with shoegaze, and it sounds nothing like Deftones, whereas Deftones music does sound similar to many other bands in the broader metalgaze label, just with more alternative elements. I was asking if metalgaze is considered to be the same thing as post-metal, but everyone just focused on the fact I used Deftones as example and how it's not metal at all instead of answering the freaking question. It doesn't freaking matter if something is metal or not, I'm just asking if a certain genre is a legit genre. Doesn't even matter if that genre is metal or not!

The punk scene is far more elitist than the metal scene as a whole, but this site manages to be even more elitist. You guise are a bunch a of narrow minded pricks who can't accept the sound of metal can be considered more than an arbitrarily defined riff. I could tolerate you views, you guys are indeed very knowledgeable about metal, but you guys are freaking assholes. Fact is, as illogical as it maybe, people would rather agree with people they like. No, I'm not going to shut up, as I have no reason to respect your orders as you haven't given me a basic level of respect. If you want me to shut up, freaking ban me, show how mature you are as a moderator. I'm sure I won't be missed. It's not like you guys want any news ideas or something that otherwise diverges from the status quo here. If metal dies, it's because it's just a bunch of recycled songs that kill any innovation out of fear of it not being metal enough, and well die with the old bands as no one new would want to join in because the existing people are assholes. I'll go back to my buds on various metal troll blogs on facebook. At least they're fun. Of all the many online communities I've been in, this has proven to be the absolute worst. I've tried to be open minded, but all you've done is proven that you are exactly as your reputation makes you out to be. I'd rather be a poseur than an elitist like you.

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9wo5uqHAHc&feature=kp[/youtube]
So much for metal being for non-conformists. It's just a more mainstream version of the punk/hardcore scene. Unless you can convince me otherwise, I'm freaking out. :P


Last edited by Zodijackyl on Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User was banned for this post and every other post, which were all inane rants.

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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:40 pm 
 

Elitist? You're too stupid to be one of the elite. Banned.

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Lord_Brendan
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:08 am 
 

:lol: Inane rants sums it up
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daemonicobsession666
Mallcore Kid

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:29 pm 
 

so what genre is tool? i consider them progressive metal, why arent they in the archives?

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:14 pm 
 

Because, while they do have metal riffs sometimes, they definitely aren't the majority of their music. They're dark and strange and have vague metal leanings, but they're a prog rock band above all else.
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Lord_Brendan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:35 pm 
 

While I love most of what Tool do, there is no way they should be on here
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Jimmy Calhoun
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:20 pm 
 

I don't see what's really metal about Tool other than their music being relatively "heavy" - and plenty of "heavy" bands have been rejected by the Archives for being more hard rock or -core than metal. I would also say that Tool is only "progressive" in the loosest sense (e.g. long songs) because their riffing style is usually closer to simplistic hard rock/alt-rock. Not that I dislike the band, in fact I just ordered 'Opiate' on vinyl, but the hard rock/alt-rock label seems to fit them much better than metal or even prog rock.
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GuntherTheUndying
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:23 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
It's challenging to imagine lyrical content making riffs sound better. wtf ..

I may be violating Gunther's axiom here.

Huh?
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burning_pyre
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:00 am 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
i dont agree with all bands that are called black and roll being called black and roll. More than a few of them are just more extreme motorhead soundwise. I call this style of metal motorbastard metal myself.


And that is why you will NEVER be trusted to come up with potential genres
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ThatzNOTmetaL
Mallcore Kid

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:29 am 
 

Pirate Metal is a term which annoys me seeing as i can only think of three bands which would.fall into that category and all of them have very different sounds, i dont have anything against bands coining terms like that on their merch as a bit of fun but when people take it seriously its juat stupid
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:10 am 
 

Pirate metal doesn't exist. Its like saying, satanic metal or inner struggles metal. Musical genres describe music, not lyrics.
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Yayattasa
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:11 am 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
No, I'm implying that the newer use of the term "post-black metal" refers to a combination of black metal and post-rock, and has nothing at all to do with shoegaze.

Post-rock + black metal = Deafheaven, Altar of Plagues
Shoegaze + black metal = that first Alcest album


Shoegaze also plays a major role in Deafheaven sound, more than post-rock, imo.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:17 am 
 

I disagree entirely. Do Deafheaven sound like Ride to you, at all?
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acjaz
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:22 pm
Posts: 17
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:55 am 
 

Deafheaven may use some of the crushing distortion that characterized My Bloody Valentine, but that's an element of heavy music that MBV reinvented for a new genre. In terms of the actual compositional style, I think Deafheaven (like most "post-black" bands), is more closely linked to post-rock.

Completely unrelated question (sorry if it's an old one): what about neofolk, neoclassical and dark ambient is metal? Also, why are some neofolk bands included and others not? I'm surprised to find Elend and Nest in Metal Archives, while bands like Neun Welten are not.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:57 am 
 

They're either here under the side project rule or are selected exceptions, i.e. non-metal bands that have significant ties to the metal scene.
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acjaz
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:22 pm
Posts: 17
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:08 pm 
 

Ah, that makes sense. Must've missed that exception.

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tomcat_ha
Minister of Boiling Water

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 4474
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:26 pm 
 

MasterOfSin wrote:
To explain better that the mixing of genres or subgenres, i suggest to create a system like this http://pokemon.alexonsager.net/
the only restriction is you only can mixing 2 genres at time.


I will totally start calling the next metal genre to emerge Pidgdon metal.

iamntbatman wrote:
The problem with the post-metal/atmospheric sludge thing is that "post-metal" implies some degree of post-rock influence, but then there's also Neurosis. Neurosis are basically the prototypical atmospheric sludge band, but much of the genre has basically replaced the dark folk/ambient parts of Neurosis with post-rock. There's still lots of overlap, but I would say choosing which one to use for a given band comes down to the ratio of post-rock to sludgier bits.


Well atmospheric sludge did basically develop first. However it never got that big however when Neurosis started adding more post-rock elements a lot of followers started taking notice. Basically post-sludge is an evolution of atmospheric sludge.

burning_pyre wrote:
tomcat_ha wrote:
i dont agree with all bands that are called black and roll being called black and roll. More than a few of them are just more extreme motorhead soundwise. I call this style of metal motorbastard metal myself.



imho a genre name has to be stupid for it too work.

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Immortal666
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:32 am
Posts: 437
Location: Philippines
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:49 pm 
 

I have a question about symphonic metal. Is this sub-genre rooted in power metal or goth metal? The most popular bands that have been labeled as symphonic metal are Rhapsody, Nightwish and Within Temptation. The first two came from power metal while WT started off as goth metal. At which point did they become symphonic metal? I'm assuming this is a valid sub-genre with a whole bunch of bands listed as such in M-A.

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nasum
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:42 pm
Posts: 300
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:12 am 
 

Immortal666 wrote:
I have a question about symphonic metal. Is this sub-genre rooted in power metal or goth metal? The most popular bands that have been labeled as symphonic metal are Rhapsody, Nightwish and Within Temptation. The first two came from power metal while WT started off as goth metal. At which point did they become symphonic metal? I'm assuming this is a valid sub-genre with a whole bunch of bands listed as such in M-A.


Well, isn't Therion first symphonic metal band? When I first heard about symphonic metal I heard about Therion. And Therion started as death metal band. Later I listened to Septic Flesh, very cool band from Greece, especially their earlier stuff. Also started as death metal.
Symphonic metal isn't something strictly defined, but when I think about it I think of gothic metal mostly. I think symphonic metal is description used to describe bands using operatic vocals like Therion, elements of or entire symphonic orchestra, and other various elements usually not found in metal.

It's like melodic part in melodic death metal, it describes another approach at death metal sound. So, pure 'sypmhonic metal' is not very exact description, at least for me, though I guess when you'd check out some band described as only 'symphonic metal' you'd get symphonic gothic metal in most cases.
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nasum wrote:
that is Rage Against The Machine, not metal.

It's probably his idea of metal. That Black Sabbath and Trouble stuff doesn't have enough gangsta giving the finger.

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TheUnhinged
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:28 pm
Posts: 222
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53 am 
 

I'm curious as to what got the whole Depressive Rock sub-genre started, and how you guys interpret it.

The band that I've seen most people associate the term with is modern day Katatonia, and I personally couldn't agree. I am sure this will spark a bit of debate, but I actually see their Discouraged Ones album as being a strange, minimalist approach to Gothic Metal (in the way that Paradise Lost and Sentenced have played it, albeit more stripped down and monotonous). From that point onward, I'd say the band started leaning more towards some kind of Prog/Alternative Rock.

Anyway, the reason why I ask is because I've never really seen it used to describe bands outside of this website (except for Last.fm every now and then). I typically see it applied to bands that play DSBM-lite (Lifelover and Amesoeurs), or bands that started out as metal then changed to a lighter sound that is less easily categorized (such as Joyless and Autumnblaze). So, would you say it really has a distinctive sound, or that it's more of an umbrella term?

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Goatfangs
Wicker Mantis

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:02 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:22 pm 
 

Therion isn't the first symphonic metal band. Savatage played around with symphonic elements long before, and I'm willing to bet there are even earlier examples.

Symphonic metal could be based on any sort of metal. Therion has their own sound because they first started adding symphonic elements to their Swedish death metal sound, then gradually moved toward a death metal influenced sound on later albums. Of course they aren't "Symphonic death metal" these days, but the death metal hasn't been completely eliminated (the song Dis from Sitra Ahra). They are just an example of a symphonic metal band that is not based on either power or gothic metal. Though, both of those genres are elements in some Therion songs as well.

Savatage is symphonic metal based on 80s power metal and progressive metal. Even their flashier, bombastic counterpart Trans-Siberian Orchestra sounds absolutely nothing like Nightwish.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 10946
Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:25 am 
 

TheUnhinged wrote:
I'm curious as to what got the whole Depressive Rock sub-genre started, and how you guys interpret it.

The band that I've seen most people associate the term with is modern day Katatonia, and I personally couldn't agree. I am sure this will spark a bit of debate, but I actually see their Discouraged Ones album as being a strange, minimalist approach to Gothic Metal (in the way that Paradise Lost and Sentenced have played it, albeit more stripped down and monotonous). From that point onward, I'd say the band started leaning more towards some kind of Prog/Alternative Rock.

Anyway, the reason why I ask is because I've never really seen it used to describe bands outside of this website (except for Last.fm every now and then). I typically see it applied to bands that play DSBM-lite (Lifelover and Amesoeurs), or bands that started out as metal then changed to a lighter sound that is less easily categorized (such as Joyless and Autumnblaze). So, would you say it really has a distinctive sound, or that it's more of an umbrella term?


Since this is the Metal Archives, we're less interested in documenting specifics of genre details for non-metal genres. The term here is used mainly for side projects or in concert with other metal genres to describe a general sound rather than a specific genre. In Katatonia's case, for example, the term is used simply to convey the idea that the band stopped playing metal (i.e. few/no metal riffs in their later material) but continued to have the dreary mood they're noted for. If we simply listed them as "alternative rock" in their later career, people might think they sound like the Foo Fighters or something.
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Jimmy Calhoun
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:29 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:16 am 
 

Exactly where does one draw the line between "death/thrash," and plain old "thrash" which just happens to be really fast/heavy/angry? I have noticed certain bands in the Archives like Blood Feast or Hypnosia being re-classified from "death/thrash" to just "thrash," which seems rather arbitrary - though if especially heavy thrash bands like Demolition Hammer or mid-period Sodom don't get the "death/thrash" tag then I guess it makes sense.
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Another Typical Metal Newbie
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:20 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Venezuela
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:09 pm 
 

Hi! I wanted to post this here because I didn't saw a Help Thread for this genre, I actually don't know a shit about this genre and I wanted to know if someone could recommend me some bands.
I was wandering what epic metal is when I was looking for similar artists to Eluveitie in here and founded Battlelore, it says that Battlelore it's symphonic epic metal, it's some folk or power metal subgenre or something? I would go and look on other pages or Wikipedia but Wikipedia also says that BFMV is thrash metal so...
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Crypt666
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:32 pm
Posts: 1267
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:11 pm 
 

You can give various interpretations on the meaning of "epic" but usually bands like Nile or Amon Amarth. Bathory (Blood Fire Death), Keep of Kalessin (Armada), Watain (Sworn To The Dark) etc etc.

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Another Typical Metal Newbie
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:20 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Venezuela
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:38 pm 
 

Crypt666 wrote:
You can give various interpretations on the meaning of "epic" but usually bands like Nile or Amon Amarth. Bathory (Blood Fire Death), Keep of Kalessin (Armada), Watain (Sworn To The Dark) etc etc.


It's for their lyrics?
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Crypt666
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:32 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:30 pm 
 

Another Typical Metal Newbie wrote:
It's for their lyrics?


Lyrics can be epic too but it's because of the music. Grand, bombastic songs often somewhat melodic.

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severzhavnost
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
Posts: 2063
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:36 pm 
 

Jimmy Calhoun wrote:
Exactly where does one draw the line between "death/thrash," and plain old "thrash" which just happens to be really fast/heavy/angry? I have noticed certain bands in the Archives like Blood Feast or Hypnosia being re-classified from "death/thrash" to just "thrash," which seems rather arbitrary - though if especially heavy thrash bands like Demolition Hammer or mid-period Sodom don't get the "death/thrash" tag then I guess it makes sense.


I wouldn't call a band death-thrash unless there was some use of death growl vocals. Maybe if the lyrics were less societal and more violent/gory too. Though I personally don't label genres based on lyrics, I accept that it is a common practice.
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