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narsilianshard
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:24 pm 
 
I've always thought Avant-Garde was just a pretentious way to say Experimental. Is there really a difference? And aren't they both just essentially Progressive anyway?
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 11:07 pm 
 
Those are all just different ways of saying "annoying, no good riffs."
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Ohrwurm
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 6:23 pm 
 
It goes in steps:

Progressive is a pretty mild form of forward thinking music. Most progressive music isn't that unique.

Experimental takes it a step further, doing some more weird stuff, but it still stays within conventions.

Avant-garde drops everything, going completely out of the box.
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 6:54 pm 
 
90% of the time, you can count on "avant-garde" meaning "this takes influence from something, but I'm not experienced enough in music outside my main set of interests to know what it is". See Gorguts, Blut aus Nord, Deathspell Omega, etc.
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~Guest 82538
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 7:38 pm 
 
MutantClannfear wrote:
90% of the time, you can count on "avant-garde" meaning "this takes influence from something, but I'm not experienced enough in music outside my main set of interests to know what it is". See Gorguts, Blut aus Nord, Deathspell Omega, etc.

Eh... no. :P

That whole "progressive = avant-garde" thing is a bit false, although the definition of avant-garde is being progressive beyond the current times/state of the art. In music, and more specifically in metal, progressive is used to define a musical genre if we're talking about progressive metal, or to give the characteristics of said genre to another musical style (e.g. progressive death metal).

So we're left with experimental vs avant-garde. It's pretty much (at least in my book) like Ohrwurm put it. Experimental is used to define music that has unusual twists and turns but still retains much of the conventions that make it sound like a specific genre, or mixture of genres. Avant-garde usually refers to an indistinctive mixture of genres where you can say what it's made of but the conventions of the genres that form it aren't present. Like a band deriving from prog rock, black metal and psych rock. Think Hail Spirit Noir versus Sigh for instance. The first is clearly an experimental band, or at least a band that makes use of some experimentalism, while the later is clearly and avant-garde act.

Wow, first time posting in this thread. I must be crazy [or stupid]. :D
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:10 pm 
 
These terms are a bit harder to define, so I can't really offer my view of a generally accepted opinion. Here's what I see these as:

Avant-garde music is rather theatrical in nature - Devil Doll is the most genuinely avant-garde band on the archives, to me.

Experimental music generally disregards more conventional structural elements of songwriting and performance and tends to focus on unestablished, experimental techniques and sounds - from playing around with guitar pedals to manipulating recordings a la musique concrete. Not to be confused with music that is simply poorly executed, dissonant mathcore worship (i.e. every band that tries to the The Dillinger Escape Plan that isn't DEP.)

Progressive music is a hard field to describe as sheer progression is hardly definitive, rather it is defined by broader, more explorative song structures and selection of song elements such as time and key signatures. Music that is both ambitious in composition and technical in performance.

Technical music (generally "Technical ___ metal") is music that bends conventional structuring and themes with a focus on technically complex performances - extreme syncopation, odd timing/rhythmic patterns/accents, dissonance, and speed. This tends to differ from progressive music in that there is less emphasis on exploring themes through extensive song structures, and there is more emphasis on discordant rhythmic elements.

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lastdodobird
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 2:24 am 
 
When you say Experimental or Avant-garde (yeah I think they're the same), I think that means abandonment of generic trappings of the genre (e.g. - metal or its subgenres, including prog metal) by doing unconventional things with the different musical elements.

An excellent example of this imo would be Thy Catafalque.
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Yayattasa
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 9:02 am 
 
Things get pretty ambivalent when we get to bands like maudlin of the Well and Arcturus.
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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:10 am 
 
"Melodic speed metal"?

Are there any examples of where it's different to just straight-up power metal? I've seen a few bands with this label on the archives, not sure if they're just oversights or not.
I can conceive of traits which would make it different to power metal, but I've so far never seen it applied to bands which don't sound more like other power metal bands.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:31 pm 
 
teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
"Melodic speed metal"?

Are there any examples of where it's different to just straight-up power metal? I've seen a few bands with this label on the archives, not sure if they're just oversights or not.
I can conceive of traits which would make it different to power metal, but I've so far never seen it applied to bands which don't sound more like other power metal bands.


I recall that it has been noted as being ambiguous and/or systematically misused - it's not necessarily invalid, but not really a commonly used combination of labels. I think it was noted that at one point a lot of Japanese hard rock with lots of harmonies was submitted as melodic speed metal. Maybe some modern fast-paced pop metal too, I forget exactly what came up.

A lot of speed metal borders on/crosses into heavy, power, or thrash metal, and power metal is generally quite melodic, and often heavy/speed too. After all, Judas Priest had their dual-guitar style and that influenced so much metal across all of those styles. The area where the term might be best used would be in a lot of the 80s power metal - a lot of the stuff we informally call USPM - where the term "power metal" wasn't necessarily common and the bands were a very melodic, harmonized sort of heavy/speed metal.

I don't know most of the bands currently listed as "melodic speed metal" but I think it's an accurate description of Oblivion Knight - the harmonized vocals and speed metal riffing seem to fit the bill, though I wouldn't object to it being called power metal either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSdQ4hs98vU

The only other one I know off-hand is Jumper Lace, listed as heavy metal/melodic speed metal, their earlier incarnations as only the latter. Some is heavy metal, some is speed metal with a fair amount of melody. Seems accurate here, though I'd believe it if someone told me that it was 83-85ish late NWOBHM stuff sorta like Tysondog.
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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:17 pm 
 
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was envisioning. Still pretty raw stuff with a lot the speed metal chaos, but obviously emphasising melody as opposed to the speed. And I could see that point about USPM, yeah. Might just have to create a new genre for my library, heh.

Anyway, though I've seen a few more here and there, this is the band which got me curious, though I feel pretty sure it's just a mislabeling. They're Japanese too, so I guess they might have just come along in that flux you mentioned, and actually I remember seeing Dragon Guardian labelled as that too ages ago but that's been rectified now.
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Minstrelix/77645
Sound pretty straight up power metal to me, maybe even with a neoclassical prefix (shame they ditched this awesome singer though heh).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZx7BHbZELI

Though for further pedantry I've been wondering about this band; they're listed as simply "heavy metal" here in the Archives, though to me a lot of their techniques sound a lot more like those I'm more familiar with in standard power metal despite their clearly retro production, like long passages of double bass with...not sure of the term, but sort of like tremolo picked, strings of a single chord before changing to a new one for stretch. I'm not too concerned, they're clearly upholding the spirit of metal either way, but I figured since we're talking about being picky about genres in this thread, heh.
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~Guest 76452
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:16 am 
 
I've seen the term "melodic speed metal" thrown around a lot in Japan, actually. Mind you, so are HM/HR and loud rock.

"Neoclassical Power Metal" would fit MinstreliX very well, esp. considering their last 2 albums (here's their latest PV). Mind you, going from my own experiences, most modern Japanese power metal bands are rather neoclassical in nature. I blame Galneryus. :P

A lot of Japanese bands could stand to have their genre changed a bit. Mind you, I probably couldn't come up with a better substitute though. :P Like Vrain is tagged "melodic heavy metal" and I don't really see it. Then again, calling them "Electro-melodic speed metal" wouldn't work well either.
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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 8:11 am 
 
You'd think the Japanese would love a term like "power metal", heh.

Yep, can't disagree with that. And it does make sense that bands would follow in the vein of perhaps the most visible band from their country. Especially one so cool. :-P
Though I do enjoy it when they produce more traditional-sounding Europower bands, like Minstrelix in the beginning, heh.

Hmm, this band sounds like pretty straightforward power metal to me (maybe neoclassical? Didn't here anything in particular for that from what I heard, though), though they do use a more 80s' production. Maybe power/glam metal or something?
And yeah, maybe it's something that needs to be tackled, though I'm sure people will correct them in time at least.

Should I just report bands like this when I see them when it's clear enough like with Minstrelix?

And also, uh, I've been wondering about Dragon Guardian's discography, since we're discussing Japanese bands at the moment, and I'm not sure where the best place to bring that up would be. They've got that Ouga project with Knights of Round, which looks like a separate project to me, though I'm not sure what the relevant policy on that would be. (And I'm also confused about the classification of some of the releases (EP/Full-length), but it might just be a technical length distinction.)
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~Guest 76452
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:01 pm 
 
This is going a bit off-topic :P

Spoiler: show
teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
You'd think the Japanese would love a term like "power metal", heh.

Yep, can't disagree with that. And it does make sense that bands would follow in the vein of perhaps the most visible band from their country. Especially one so cool. :-P
Though I do enjoy it when they produce more traditional-sounding Europower bands, like Minstrelix in the beginning, heh.

I don't mind it when they're inspired by Euro bands, but I really prefer it when they do their own thing. I find the 100% emulated bands aren't quite as good. Even though older MinstreliX is influenced by Dark Moor and the like, they still brought new elements into the mix.

Quote:
Hmm, this band sounds like pretty straightforward power metal to me (maybe neoclassical? Didn't here anything in particular for that from what I heard, though), though they do use a more 80s' production. Maybe power/glam metal or something?
And yeah, maybe it's something that needs to be tackled, though I'm sure people will correct them in time at least.

Nah, that song is as neoclassical as it gets. That opening riff I consider to be completely neoclassical. Are you sure you're not mixing neoclassical up with symphonic? Also, structurally its a lot more involved and intricate than a lot of Euro-power metal. Their last two albums are actually quite complicated. I'm not sure I'd want to put the 'progressive' tag on them, but if you called then "Progressive/Neoclassical power metal", you would not be wrong. They also have some melodeath influences as well. They're really not an easy band to pigeonhole and are really as much of a genre-clusterfuck as Light Bringer (I don't really agree with them being just power metal). As you can tell, I like MinstreliX a lot. :P

Lola actually left the band - apparently she had no intention of being in a metal band... funny how people just randomly join one and do a couple albums. I'm not gonna get too worked up over someone preferring the stuff she was on and avoiding the new stuff, because I had the exact same stance last year. I actually prefer their 2 latest albums now. Not to imply you or anyone else will have the same thing happen.

Quote:
Should I just report bands like this when I see them when it's clear enough like with Minstrelix?

I'd say either report them or post them in this thread (with samples, of course).

Quote:
And also, uh, I've been wondering about Dragon Guardian's discography, since we're discussing Japanese bands at the moment, and I'm not sure where the best place to bring that up would be. They've got that Ouga project with Knights of Round, which looks like a separate project to me, though I'm not sure what the relevant policy on that would be. (And I'm also confused about the classification of some of the releases (EP/Full-length), but it might just be a technical length distinction.)

Oh man, this band is a migraine-inducer. I actually own most of their CDs and I just tag everything as "Dragon Guardian", but that is actually quite wrong. I think the collab with Knights of Round is technically: Dragon Guardian & KNIGHTS OF ROUND "桜牙" (caps in original). Some other albums are technically "Dragon Guardian feat. Leo Figarro", "Dragon Guardian feat. IZNA", "Dragon Guardian feat. Jun", etc.

Iron Attack! is a pain in the ass too (a couple albums should technically be "Iron Attack feat. Absolute Area" (which I think is an Iron Attack/Dragon Guardian collab). Whereas Dragon Eyes is a Dragon Guardian/Thousand Eyes collab. Doujin stuff is a taxidermal nightmare haha
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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 3:36 pm 
 
Perdition666 wrote:
This is going a bit off-topic :P

Spoiler: show
It is, I'm sorry, just wasn't sure where a better place to bring this stuff up was. If there is, feel free to point me there for next time! It just, initially at least, seemed like a small tangent to the current topic that didn't need it's own thread... :roll:

Perdition666 wrote:
I don't mind it when they're inspired by Euro bands, but I really prefer it when they do their own thing. I find the 100% emulated bands aren't quite as good. Even though older MinstreliX is influenced by Dark Moor and the like, they still brought new elements into the mix.

Well yeah, I wouldn't want them all to just be knockoffs. Though conversely there seems to be an overbearing "Japanese sound" which I guess I'm not so drawn to. Guess that's just up to me.

Quote:
Nah, that song is as neoclassical as it gets. That opening riff I consider to be completely neoclassical. Are you sure you're not mixing neoclassical up with symphonic? Also, structurally its a lot more involved and intricate than a lot of Euro-power metal. Their last two albums are actually quite complicated. I'm not sure I'd want to put the 'progressive' tag on them, but if you called then "Progressive/Neoclassical power metal", you would not be wrong. They also have some melodeath influences as well. They're really not an easy band to pigeonhole and are really as much of a genre-clusterfuck as Light Bringer (I don't really agree with them being just power metal). As you can tell, I like MinstreliX a lot. :P

Whoops...I was talking about the band you brought up, Vrain, and I really neglected to clarify that. Minstrelix, yeah, definitely neoclassical. And I love them as well! But yeah the Japanese seem to like their eclectic influences. Even Dragon Guardian seems to take some cues from death metal here and there.
Checking out Light Bringer now too actually, I'd heard about them before, but didn't pay them so much attention. They sound great too! Pretty much sound just PM at the moment, but we'll see. :-P

Quote:
Lola actually left the band - apparently she had no intention of being in a metal band... funny how people just randomly join one and do a couple albums. I'm not gonna get too worked up over someone preferring the stuff she was on and avoiding the new stuff, because I had the exact same stance last year. I actually prefer their 2 latest albums now. Not to imply you or anyone else will have the same thing happen.

Yeah, I knew she'd left, and was kind of annoyed at Figaro for pushing aside an awesome singer and thrusting his nose into yet another Japanese band heh. But I see, that's understandable I guess. And no, I don't dislike their later stuff after getting over my Figaro-complex, even if I don't feel he's quite so distinctive-sounding. :)

Quote:
I'd say either report them or post them in this thread (with samples, of course).

Ah, sure thing, will do. Was sure I looked, but anyway!
-And looking at it actually, it looks like these other queries could be brought up on that board. Initially I was under the impression it was more just about technical stuff. I'll know that for next time.

Quote:
Oh man, this band is a migraine-inducer. I actually own most of their CDs and I just tag everything as "Dragon Guardian", but that is actually quite wrong. I think the collab with Knights of Round is technically: Dragon Guardian & KNIGHTS OF ROUND "桜牙" (caps in original). Some other albums are technically "Dragon Guardian feat. Leo Figarro", "Dragon Guardian feat. IZNA", "Dragon Guardian feat. Jun", etc.

Yeah, that was the issue I was talking about. I'd put the "Dragon Guardian feat. X" albums just in Dragon Guardian, myself (as they're just DG with a guest imo), then I'd have the DG&KoR stuff separate (under Dragon Guardian & KNIGHTS OF ROUND「桜牙」, like you said), and would put their stuff with Figaro in there as well.
My query was mainly in regards to how "Dragon Guardian & KNIGHTS OF ROUND「桜牙」" should be dealt with in the archive, since it feels like a "more separate" project than just them with featured artists. Though as I said, I'm not sure what the policy on this would be (or even where I should bring queries like this up, which is why I thought I'd mention it here).

Quote:
Iron Attack! is a pain in the ass too (a couple albums should technically be "Iron Attack feat. Absolute Area" (which I think is an Iron Attack/Dragon Guardian collab). Whereas Dragon Eyes is a Dragon Guardian/Thousand Eyes collab. Doujin stuff is a taxidermal nightmare haha

Heh, it does seem so. I looked at Iron Attack before because it was in the recommended list for Dragon Guardian, and was similarly overwhelmed by their discography (though mainly all the Touhou :-D ). As I said, my inclination is just to put the stuff "feat. X" under the main band's stuff, though something like "Dragon Eyes", if it seems like it'll be treated more as a separate project, I'd likely list separately like DG&KoR.

Might also check out some of those things too, now I know they've got Dragon Guardian in!

-Oh, and my other query was that several of DG's albums are listed on their official site as EPs, but are classified here as full-lengths, like VELGA and Fairytale. Again, I have no idea where I should bring stuff like this up, or whether the Archives has a more concrete classification or something.

But also, since you seem to know a fair bit about these bands, do you know what's happened with Fuki? DG's Archives page suggests that Figaro's taken over from her, though that doesn't seem strictly true; as we were just saying, it seems to be considered just a collaboration (though I can accept him being listed as a member since it seems like a pretty long-term one with a lot of releases), and the most recent "proper" release from DG&KoR has a female singer again (which suggests to me that the next "proper" DG release will be female fronted again, though we'll have to wait and see for that :-P ), and I can't find any info on whether that's her again or someone new.
But it's okay if you don't know! Just had a lot of queries on my chest I guess, heh...

(Added some edits)
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 1:02 pm 
 
iamntbatman wrote:
Those are all just different ways of saying "annoying, no good riffs."


Maybe this isn't the opinion of most, but I always felt that the term "avant garde" could only really be applied retroactively. IE, it doesn't make sense to call a new band "avant garde" because at that point they aren't leading the way toward anything, they're experimenting and seeing what will work. When people start latching on to what they're doing, the originator of a certain style, movement or idea then becomes "avant garde"...because they're the first, the inspiration, etc.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 1:11 pm 
 
Abominatrix wrote:
iamntbatman wrote:
Those are all just different ways of saying "annoying, no good riffs."


Maybe this isn't the opinion of most, but I always felt that the term "avant garde" could only really be applied retroactively. IE, it doesn't make sense to call a new band "avant garde" because at that point they aren't leading the way toward anything, they're experimenting and seeing what will work. When people start latching on to what they're doing, the originator of a certain style, movement or idea then becomes "avant garde"...because they're the first, the inspiration, etc.


Edit: Also, any sort of "forward-thinking" music is progressive.
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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 3:35 pm 
 
I thought Avant-Garde was just throwing conventions to the wind, at least as it's used as a genre-term today.

Though it seems to be used to refer to two somewhat though not directly related things; what I just mentioned above (something like Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, for a more purely structural etc. approach), and more specifically the sort of crazy Victorianesque cabaret-inspired stuff, like Devil Doll and Diablo Swing Orchestra.
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~Guest 82538
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 5:04 pm 
 
teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
I thought Avant-Garde was just throwing conventions to the wind, at least as it's used as a genre-term today.

Though it seems to be used to refer to two somewhat though not directly related things; what I just mentioned above (something like Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, for a more purely structural etc. approach), and more specifically the sort of crazy Victorianesque cabaret-inspired stuff, like Devil Doll and Diablo Swing Orchestra.

I would agree with you on both accounts, at least it's the way I use the term when categorizing music. I know what Abom is saying about calling it "progressive", but I think we can all agree that referring to a band as being progressive, in the sense that it's forward-thinking, and calling it progressive music (rock, metal, etc.) are two different things.

I'd also say that those three bands you listed are textbook examples of Avant-garde music.
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Another Typical Metal Newbie
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:44 pm 
 
Haven't you ever thought that maybe those extreme metal subgenres aren't actually metal? It's just a thought, doesn't means I actually believe that, but... How can you compare Iron Maiden to a band like Mayhem? Or a band like Cannibal Corpse to Black Sabbath.
Maybe these extreme sub-genres are part of a new genre... Extreme metal (or another name with a material who could be harder than metal).
Hard rock
\/
Heavy metal
(which sub-genres could be power, speed and thrash metal, groove too, i don't know)
\/
Extreme metal
(Black, death, doom...)

PD: I don't know a lot of gothic, symphonic, epic, folk and industrial metal so I won't name them here.
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Manic Maniac
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:12 pm 
 
I really hate the term Extreme Metal. It's an umbrella term for several extremer Metal genres, some of which aren't even related to each other. I don't even understand what makes Doom Metal extreme. Doom Metal was like the first Metal genre to have existed. If doom is extreme, than what makes a Metal genre not extreme? & how is Thrash not extreme? If both Black Metal & Death Metal is to be included, than we must also include Thrash & Speed Metal since Black Metal comes from Speed Metal & Death Metal comes from Thrash Metal which comes from Speed Metal.
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NoKnownName
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:25 pm 
 
Another Typical Metal Newbie wrote:
How can you compare Iron Maiden to a band like Mayhem? Or a band like Cannibal Corpse to Black Sabbath.

Easily. Very, very easily.
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Another Typical Metal Newbie
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:41 am 
 
Manic Maniac wrote:
I really hate the term Extreme Metal. It's an umbrella term for several extremer Metal genres, some of which aren't even related to each other. I don't even understand what makes Doom Metal extreme. Doom Metal was like the first Metal genre to have existed. If doom is extreme, than what makes a Metal genre not extreme? & how is Thrash not extreme? If both Black Metal & Death Metal is to be included, than we must also include Thrash & Speed Metal since Black Metal comes from Speed Metal & Death Metal comes from Thrash Metal which comes from Speed Metal.


Just a thought I had, that's why I posted it on the Stupid genre question megathread...
With doom I was refering to the fusions with death and black but I should have specified that before, thrash metal it's pretty extreme but I guess not as much as its subgenres.
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Fromage_Qui_Pue
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:31 pm 
 
@Another Typical Metal Newbie: Actually "Metal" is quite vague, some peoples add some subgenres in Metal that others aren't agree to add because they are less "extreme" (as said Mani Maniac it's a potpourri of everything what each of us could considerate more extremer than others) or because they are astride with others styles.
"Brutality" in music/lyrics only can't determine Metal, otherwise we can add Rap, Breakcore/Hardteck...
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teh_Foxx0rz
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 9:38 am
Posts: 569
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:40 am 
 
Just because something comes from something doesn't mean the thing it came from must be dragged along into whatever categorisation the thing itself is put into. Death and black metal are more extreme than thrash and speed metal, so they can be categorised differently than their aforementioned forebears. Though naturally, there will always be bands straddling that divide, and speed and especially thrash metal are the closest genres to what is generally termed "extreme metal". They're also usually stylistically slightly closer to traditional metal than to their descendants (though of course again, that's not to say that there are no bands which aren't!).

But influence =/= categorisation. Otherwise that makes Diamond Head and Iron Maiden thrash metal.

Though anyone including doom would be just flat-out wrong, though Metal Newbie does at least clarify that that's not what he meant. If people ever do mistake it to be such, then they'll probably only be getting caught up on the occult motifs of bands like Pentagram and Candlemass such without actually caring to know a thing about it (and likely metal as a whole). The fusions though, such as funeral doom and what have you, could be perhaps, though I'm not too familiar with them to say.

What kind of confuses me though is when bands are generically labelled "extreme metal" per se, like later Emperor on Prometheus, which I saw labelled as "symphonic extreme metal" here on the Archives, when it feels like it needs some further categorisation. Or just flipping the terms around, like "extreme symphonic metal", I guess.
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Manic Maniac
Grammaritically Challengated

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:58 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:59 am 
 
Except I was talking about Origin, not influence. Categorization should be based on a family tree, not similarities.
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teh_Foxx0rz
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 9:38 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:58 pm 
 
...Aren't similarities the whole basis of genre categorisation...?
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Another Typical Metal Newbie
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:20 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Venezuela
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:54 pm 
 
teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
Just because something comes from something doesn't mean the thing it came from must be dragged along into whatever categorisation the thing itself is put into. Death and black metal are more extreme than thrash and speed metal, so they can be categorised differently than their aforementioned forebears.

I agree with that /\. I never saw extreme metal as a real genre (just that if we divide heavy, power, folk, etc... from death, black, melodeath and stuff I would call the extreme ones as extreme metal and the less extreme would be called... well, heavy metal), I don't even know if it actually exists, I have barely seen the term on Wikipedia and I don't trust Wikipedia too much when it is about the music. What does "=/=" means?
Shit... Sorry for my awful english.
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teh_Foxx0rz
Metalhead

Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 9:38 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:01 pm 
 
There are more similarities between "extreme metal" bands and more "standard" heavy metal bands (even if that's just mainly thrash and speed) than to other genres, which is precisely what defines them as metal. It's probably a little like the divide between "soft" and "hard" rock, in a sense. Or standard and hardcore punk, etc.

And "=/=" is meant to be an equals sign crossed out; "doesn't equal". And no need to worry, your English seems pretty decent so far!
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Smalley
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:18 pm 
 
Speaking just from personal experience, I've never seen the term "extreme metal" as used to categorize a specific sub-genre with certain characteristics, the same way we see death, black, thrash (etc.) used for certain bands. I've only really seen it used occasionally as a blanket term used to describe bands in the more extreme (duh) sub-genres, in order to distinguish them from the more "traditional", melodic, Maiden/Priest-y groups out there, as well as to categorize relatively "vague" extreme bands that don't quite solidly belong to just one extreme sub-genre, such as Celtic Frost. I've only seen it used in a large, generalized sense of style, to be honest.
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peterpessimism
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Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:25 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:51 pm 
 
I feel like its appropriate to post this here.

This is a a band from my city that consider themselves metal but are unsure what exact kind of metal. I don't know what genre I would fit them under since it seems if they take influences from a few, including deathcore. Please help me decide if they're worthy of being on the site. They only have one physical release (this demo) out so far.

Http://latb.bandcamp.com
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Zodijackyl
63 Axe Handles High

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:50 pm 
 
peterpessimism wrote:
I feel like its appropriate to post this here.

This is a a band from my city that consider themselves metal but are unsure what exact kind of metal. I don't know what genre I would fit them under since it seems if they take influences from a few, including deathcore. Please help me decide if they're worthy of being on the site. They only have one physical release (this demo) out so far.

Http://latb.bandcamp.com


Sounds like a mix of Six Feet Under style death-n-roll with deathcore.
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exdeathbr
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:29 pm
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:55 pm 
 
Is classical metal a real genre? I will explain better.

Imagine funeral Doom Metal
Metal = X
Doom Metal = X + Y
Funeral Doom Metal = X + Y + Z

Or imagine noise black metal
Metal = X
Black Metal = X + Y
Noise Black Metal = X + Y + Z

Anyway
Is there any classical metal as in X + classical music influences, So classical music would be the Y part.

Anytime people talk about classical metal, most of the stuff posted sounds like it would be the Z part, at many cases it doenst even fit as the Z part, its just some X+Y+Z band with some classical music influences (not enought to be a new sub-genre).



Question 2 and 3
Repeat question 1 with folk and industrial.
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Ohrwurm
Metalhead

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Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:46 pm 
 
Haggard is a good example of equal parts metal and classical.
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severzhavnost
Something Stupid

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
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Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:50 pm 
 
Abominatrix wrote:
Maybe this isn't the opinion of most, but I always felt that the term "avant garde" could only really be applied retroactively. IE, it doesn't make sense to call a new band "avant garde" because at that point they aren't leading the way toward anything, they're experimenting and seeing what will work. When people start latching on to what they're doing, the originator of a certain style, movement or idea then becomes "avant garde"...because they're the first, the inspiration, etc.


That's a pretty good definition of the term avant-garde. Seeing as avant means before, such a band would have to come before those who latch on and make it a thing. But it's just not the way I hear it used in music. I mean, what differentiates that from what is commonly called proto- ?
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~Guest 82538
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:16 pm 
 
I guess that proto- would be a band laying the foundations but not actively being a part of a defined movement, whereas what Abom was pointing out would fit more into the scenario of a band that starts a trend, thus being visionary and ahead of its time (i.e. avant-garde).

But like I said during that particular conversation in this thread, it depends on how you're applying the term "avant-garde". If you're using it as a term to define bands that do what I described above then sure, it fits. But if you're using it as a genre descriptor, as in "band X plays avant-garde whatever" then it acquires a different meaning I'd say. It has to do with the context in which it's used really.
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Rompestromper
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:37 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:16 am 
 
Another Typical Metal Newbie wrote:
Haven't you ever thought that maybe those extreme metal subgenres aren't actually metal? It's just a thought, doesn't means I actually believe that, but... How can you compare Iron Maiden to a band like Mayhem? Or a band like Cannibal Corpse to Black Sabbath.
Maybe these extreme sub-genres are part of a new genre... Extreme metal (or another name with a material who could be harder than metal).
Hard rock
\/
Heavy metal
(which sub-genres could be power, speed and thrash metal, groove too, i don't know)
\/
Extreme metal
(Black, death, doom...)

PD: I don't know a lot of gothic, symphonic, epic, folk and industrial metal so I won't name them here.


If you want to take this literally you can call the heavy metal Iron; since this is the core metal in our daily lives; followed by Sodium, Magnesium, Copper, Cobalt, Aluminium and Chrome for the most prevalent other genres (you can order them based on either mass or density) and for the more "rare" genres you can go onward to describing them as the rare earth elements. If some genres blend with non-metal styles you can name them Sodium Chloride or something. But I think that is just the chemist in me speaking... I generally feel that all metal is related in some way due the fact it is a heavy, non-popular genre looking at the masses which allows a wide variety of heaviness to come in rather than having very narrow defined structures of what is what (only this small box is heavy metal and there is not room for anything else). It is similar in Jazz and Blues, were a certain line is described as being Jazz, it doesn't say what kind. I like some jazz (sonny rollins, Monk etc.) but there are so much genres in there, which I recognize as jazz, which I really dislike. So I don't feel extreme metal as a valid addition as a genre.
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Kveldulfr
Veteran

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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Location: Nowhere
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:45 am 
 
Agree with Abom. When Arcturus released LMI no one knew wtf was happening. The term Avantgarde came over time since their music was impossible to categorize (The My Angel demo was the same). The Solefald guys weren't doing Avantgarde, that was an adjective people put to their music.

Is still hard to explain how Neonism sounds without the avantgarde mention and there are even weirder bands out there.
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imcominforyou
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:31 pm
Posts: 6
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:27 pm 
 
Can someone explain to me what the hell "melodic groove metal" is? It seems to be a subgenre that's exclusive to this site and one that's a creation of the mods. I've tried getting bands like Scar Symmetry and Solution .45 changed back to melodeath, which is almost universally agreed upon as the correct genre for those bands, but some people still insist it's melodic groove metal, and it's a categorization that I can't find any traces of online or any mentions of anywhere.
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~Guest 82538
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
Posts: 6400
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:46 pm 
 
There's plenty of explanation of it in the appropriate threads down there in the "Suggestions and Complaints" section. Some Mods even provided explanations.

Basically it has to do with those band's music being based on groove rather than death metal, and being that they're fundamentally melody-driven, like anything categorized as "melodic whatever", they're classified like that. Think of it like this, if there are no death metal riffs but instead a bunch of groove-ridden chords/riffs being played then why would you call that death metal in the first place. For a band to be classified as melodic death metal it implies that they at first play actual death metal, and then the basis of the way they play it is... melody.

Can't be that hard to understand, and the "everybody else says otherwise" argument really makes you sound like you're not thinking for yourself here. Which you should. ;)
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