Blackened noise.

How come Dismember get to make such catchy, groovy songs and still be called Death Metal?


If Ladybaby isn't metal, neither is the entire genre of Power Metal. That's a fact. Go ahead. Tell me with a straight face that this is metal, but this isn't.

Well to be nitpicky it'd have to be blackened noise metal otherwise it'd be a subgenre of noise music and not on the Archives

Anyway, blackened noise isn't a thing but blackened drone and ambient black are, and they're very similar to what blackened noise would be. Using the rough guide of advanced search there are a whopping 9 blackened drone bands on here, but roughly 1,000 black/ambient, of which Burzum is the biggest name.

No, that's not right. Blackened noise is definitely a thing (and much more of a thing than "blackened drone", which is a term I've literally never heard used before...). In the Archives, bands that play it are usually referred to as "[Raw] Black Metal/Noise", and it's usually used to refer to bands that go beyond mere "raw black metal" with raw black metal, to the point where the noise elements either form independent interludes or they add so much feedback to the music that the music becomes at least partially based around them.

Some examples:

It's because they're a groovy death metal band! *gasp*

Also their later albums get more melodic, I think. I remember Death Metal being melodeath.

I wondered for a long time why Dismember and Intestine Baalism never got a melodic death metal tag added to their page. I own all the IB albums on cd and vinyl, almost every other song is melodic death metal

Someone in the world who knows Intestine Baalism wow, I was wondering that too because those dudes are melodeath as fuck.

Yeah they fucking rule. by the by is there any difference between melodeath and melodic death metal?

It's the same thing, actually. Melodeath is used as a truncation.

Not surprised, thanks.

I'm not sure where should I post this question, this thread seems a bit relevant so here it goes:

What is difference between powerviolence and grindcore? Most bands described as pv sound like pissed off hardcore w/ grind blasting & massive slow crushing riffs, is that it or am I missing something? Also what exactly is crust punk? Thanks in advance.

PV and grind overlap a lop, but you can think of PV as hardcore bands that "grind" on a sludgey rhythm only for it to explode in your face the next moment. The blasting parts are pretty much the same as with grindcore, though there is word that powerviolence tends to be more "technical" in terms of the execution whereas grindcore is more of a "blast away" thing. Crust punk is either of the D-beat school or of the crawling apocalyptic Amebix/Crass/etc. school.

But the best answer to both your questions is to listen to the top dogs in those genres and compare them.

Thanks for the reply! I've got another question. What is the difference between sludge, doom & stoner (sludge metal is esp. confusing to me)? Also is funeral doom just slowed down death/doom?

Doom metal refers to traditional doom (see Candlemass for reference, or Pentagram), the dragged down Black Sabbath bluesy sound taken to its extreme form. Death/doom is death metal mixed with, well, doom metal, in a way that it keeps elements of both (like death/thrash or death/grind). Sludge is a mix of hardcore and doom (think Crowbar) and then its sonority expanded over the years with experimentation and overlap with other genres (post-hardcore, industrial, post-rock). Stoner is like traditional doom but a bit more dragged down and fuzzy, a bit more psychedelic. Stoner and sludge tend to overlap but if you compare, say, Crowbar with Cathedral you can spot the differences.

PS: Funeral doom. More or less, but you can have a funeral doom band with barely any trace of death metal. Skepticism is the reference here, and if you take the harsh vocals and replace them with clean ones then you'll be hard pressed to find any death metal elements in their sound.

Thanks alot! Can you recommend me some sludge metal bands apart from those in the NOLA scene?

Try Goatsblood, Iron Monkey and Fistula for some good and nasty stuff.

Or: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38296

Thanks for the recs, pretty pissed off shit.

Is "symphonic metal" an actual genre? I mean, every single symphonic metal song outta here sounds pretty much as a standard gothic, power, progressive, alternative metal song or even melodic death metal, among with some others, but with symphonic elements into it. Some of them may have a characteristic sound that doesn't seems like just, for example "power metal", but its conjugation with the melodic/progressive/blackened/whatever tag, annihilating the "magic" behind the symphonic metal style.
To me, symphonic metal is one of those blatant genres, similar to dark metal's situation. It's almost the same as saying "instrumental metal" or "guitar metal". What is your opinion on this, guys?

I'm simplifying it alot but vanilla symphonic metal is pretty much goth chick fronted (usually) alternative metal with simplistic guitar riffs and drum beats & violins, cellos, choirs etc. in the background. Defining characteristics of this style are the operatic vocals (most singers are usually classically trained), use of classical instruments to create a huge 'symphonic sound'. Stuff like Xandria, After Forever, early Within Temptation, Delain are more or less pure symphonic metal (with maybe a bit of gothic metal as well). I was gonna say Nightwish but they are labelled symphonic power metal on the archives and I don't listen to them so I just avoided mentioning them altogether even if they are pretty much the biggest band in this genre.

Now you can add elements from other genres like power/melodic death metal (Rhapsody of Fire, Avantasia, Gloryhammer, Wintersun's 1st record), death/black metal (SepticFlesh, Fleshgod Apocalypse, Dimmu Borgir, Shade Empire), deathcore/metalcore (Ovid's Withering, Make Them Suffer, Winds of Plague) etc. to create fusion genres/styles.

Don't sweat it too much because alot of symphonic metal has crossover with the deceptively hard to pin-point gothic metal sub-genre. Also add in the fact most power metal bands and a considerable number of melodeath bands these days utilize keyboards/ symphonic elements, things get further convoluted. Still symphonic is an important genre tag.

Correct me if I'm wrong as this particular shade of metal isn't exactly my cup of tea. Hope you got something of value from that clusterfuck!

Yes it is real. Is there crossover? Yes there is there. There can be crossover with gothic metal, power, progressive, black and even death metal. But it still need to have the sound that bands such as Savatage, X-Japan, and Therion started. That sound being an orchestra sound. And just dropping a keyboard in does not work. There are gothic metal bands that drop in a keyboard and are called symphonic gothic metal yet there is no symphonic sound its just used for atmosphere. An example of this is Tristania. The sound may seem symphonic but it's really just used for atmosphere.

A band like Epica that keyboard is not just there for atmosphere it's there to give the sound of a full orchestra. Thing that has to be remembered is that not ever band has the kind of money that Nightwish has to just go out and get a full 60 piece if they could I'm sure Delain, Epica, and Within Temptation would have done so by now. Same can go with power metal there are power metal bands that use keyboards but it's just for atmosphere.

Then you have bands like Kamelot, Savatage, X-Japan to name a few that used the keyboards to give the orchestra sound again out side of Savatage (a.k.a TSO) they all don't have the money to throw down like Nightwish to get a full orchestra if they did Kamelot would be doing it Pythia would be doing it. Heck Xandria would be doing it. The only other band I can think of that is throwing down the money to do what Nightwish is doing is Edenbridge.

So yes it is a thing. Problem is people think that ever power, gothic, prog, black and death metal band that throws in a keyboard is symphonic. I mean if we are going to go by that then Dark Tranquillity is symphonic do to use of keyboards and there not even close. They are using it for atmosphere when the put it in on The Minds I.

Granted there are bands that are labeled as symphonic metal that are not even metal nor are they symphonic Skillet and Evanescence being the two that are called metal and symphonic with out even being either one. Then again Evanescence is also called gothic metal and I'm still trying to find the gothic and metal side there.



Ok I will correct you there is no such thing as symphonic deathcore/metalcore. Winds of Plague are just a deathcore band that throws keyboards in and then hides it under so much crap that I don't even know how it can be called symphonic.

Melo death bands that use keyboards not counting Wintersun what ever the heck he is doing these days is not very symphonic it's adding atmosphere. I go more by what by what the fathers of the genre did ie Savatage, X-Japan, and Therion they wanted a bigger sound. Which is why I can't call WT, Delain gothic.Well ok WT first two albums can be called gothic but after they fall lock step and key with what Savatage, X-Japan, and Therion did big grand sound.

Winds of Plague aren't that spectacular & they do hide behind keyboards, I'll give you that. However, there are 13 DC & 6 MC bands even on the archives (given the strict guidelines for 'core genres') described as symphonic deathcore/metalcore respectively, some with additional tags like black or death metal. It is, admittedly, a very niche 'micro-genre' but it does exist & I've found many hidden gems on youtube that would never make it onto the archives due being more 'core' than straight metal or being too obscure/short lived for anyone to take notice. Its the type of stuff one searches up when you they go what if somebody mixed X genre with Y genre, found out Anaal Nathrakh this way and they are in top 5 bands of all time. Plus it's much better than the vanilla stuff as it hasn't become a trend (yet) so there is actually alot of refreshing stuff in there! Having said that, some of these bands can fall or crossover into atmospheric territories but let's not split hairs over that.

Regarding melodeath, I do agree with you. Thinking about it now, not many bands (if any at all) are doing the full blown orchestra/symphonic thing with rasps & melodic leads in the background. Was so into the Winter Madness album lately I pretty much glossed over that fact completely

Tangent Alert/Story Time: Fuck WT anyway, it reminds me of a friend who thinks Linkin Park are the best/hardest band in music & WT write the most deepest/emotional music ever. That is fine with me, he can like what he wants but you dense dumbfuck don't call my Cattle Decap, JFAC & Napalm Death shit if you don't know the 1st thing about metal...or music in general. "You know these guys are all Illuminati/satanic dirtbags that are working for the NWO, plus this isn't music & your taste is shit". Needless to say, tempers flared and I kicked him out of my house due to his non-stop shit talking & getting all aggressive about it. It's basically glorified pop rock now for plebs, sorry not sorry. Fuck them & him, Savatage ftw. I'll shut up now.

As for gothic metal/symphonic metal crossover, I really don't know where one ends and the other starts to be honest. Maybe gothic metal is more theatrical with darker themes & whatnot than being just straight opera with electric guitars. Thoughts? Also any bands that are worth listening, most just sounds like poppy goth rock to me. I respect your patience if you made it through all that!

FWIW, stuff labeled simply as "symphonic metal" on this site is more or less just the white bread of metal with keyboards over it.

My preferred derogatory term for boring symphonic metal with gothic fashion is "corset metal." I think you can tell exactly what that is.

About that of symphonic Deathcore/metalcore, well, it doesn't seems as a definite and intricate genre, such as with symphonic power or gothic metal. Bands such as Winds of Plague are just fans of doing experiments. It's technically, the same situation as progressive blackened doom metal.

About thar of white bread of metal with keyboards, was exactly what I was trying to refer on my question, by the fact that most of those bands are power, gothic, alternative or progressive metal.

What are you talking about, it's a legit genre man haha!

Yeah, I know that it is a legit genre, lol, I mean, genres of music whose descriptions doesn't appear on things like wikipedia, rateyourmusic and even video compilations on youtube (for example, the "contrast" between melodic death metal and blackened progressive viking metal).

The list of bands that play Symphonic metal is really not going to be that long it would look like this

Therion
Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Nightwish
Epica
Delain
Kamelot (sense black halo)
Xandria
Within Temptation
Tarja
Dimmu Borgir (It's symphonic metal that is just really extreme. Can you call it symphonic black metal? I guess if you want but then a number of Epica songs can be called symphonic death metal)
Edenbridge
Serenity
Avantasia
After Forever (from there 1st album to there last album)
Ancient Bards
Lunatica
Diabulua in Musica

At the end of the day that's about it. Unless they are fallowing suit as close as the can get in Delains case with what Therion and Trans-Siberian Orchestra are doing then it's not pure symphonic. I mean Tristania is called a symphonic gothic metal band because of the use of a choir. Problem there is the way it is used is not the way Epica, AF, NW, or even TSO use it. In other words they seeing a whole passage not just some latin part that is thrown in. I mean whole passages. Example Epicas Mother of Light vs Tristania The Shining Path.

Most bands are either A) using the keyboards to give it different kind of sound and feel which is what all the gothic, power, prog, black and alternative are doing B) They are going for a bit of the symphonic sound but not all the way case in point Sonata Arctica, Skillet and Symphony X the keyboards are never front and center or over power the guitar.

Though the guitar does play a bigger role in Avantasia, Epica and Dimmu Borgir but the other bands the guitar does not over power the keyboards and Orchestra sound and feel.

I think were the problem comes from is bands like AF and WT are listed as gothic metal. Well on maybe two albums if even that after there is nothing gothic about either band. Then you have the problem that because Epica, AF, and DiM and to a small point Delain have growls it's well beauty and the beast and that's a gothic sound done by Theater of Tragedy and Tristania. But if you listen to Epica they have whole songs that don't even have growls at all.

Then you have Nightwish that was thrown in there when again there is nothing gothic about there first three albums two of them are so power metal it's not even funny and one is a mix of power and folk metal.

Symphonic was never born from gothic metal and the gothic bands that are said to use it well in a very small way sure but it's so small that its just a crossover. The bands I listed are about the only pure symphonic metal bands you will find. They all may have started as one thing but they all ended up being pure symphonic choir, small Orchestra or in the case of NW, ED, and DB full on Orchestra or in Delains case the keyboards used to go for the Orchestra sound because they don't have the money to drop for that stuff yet. So that's what 17 bands in total?

Post-black metal, blackgaze (is this even a legit term?), depressive (suicidal) black metal, atmospheric black metal where does one end and the other start? I've been delving into alot of melancholic, 'huge' sounding black metal lately and there seems to be plenty of overlap among these particular shades of black metal. How did black metal splinter into these sub-sub genres in the first place? Any useful input is welcome. Thanks in advance!

I'll give you the explanation of those genres, sorry if my english is not good enough for you comprehend them.

Post-Black Metal is, well, black metal with post-rock/hardcore/metal and shoegaze influences, driving away the black metal genre from its conventional sound and purpouse, same as what happens with the aforementioned examples. You'll understand better by listening to bands such as Deafheaven, Bosse de nage and Altar of Plagues. Its pretty more acessible and experimental than common black metal, featuring also elements like crescendos, climaxes and various progressions on it;

Blackgaze is not commonly accepted as an actual genre, but I do consider it as a different style. As the name refers, it's a mix between black metal and shoegaze and it's sound is pretty similar to post-black. Check bands like Aloeswood, Infinitas and Alcest for this one;

Depressive Black is a branch of black metal caracterized by it's powerful melancholic, dirge-y and, well, depressing music. The atmosphere and production are pretty raw and sometimes features keyboards, in order to accent it. Most vocals are similar to sadness and despair-related screaming and grunting, even sounding like crying in some situations. Check Silencer, Thy Light and Valefor for this genre;

Atmospheric Black Metal is characterized by the very distorted, chaotic, disperse and "vast" guitar-driven atmosphere, having a bigger enphasis on this than on the regular black metal genre. It features also keyboards and symphonic instruments in order to accent the power of that atmosphere. This is often mistaken as the symphonic and melodic black metal genres because of those instruments application. Check Darkspace, Darchon and Akhlys.

Yes, they're kind of different things, but there's also a lot of amateur bands that are basically some sort of indistinct, wimpy blend of some/all of those.

How legitimate a label is "half thrash"? I don't mean legit as it relates to "groove" bands like Pantera, Machine Head, Lamb Of God, etc., but as it pertains to the slowed-down tempo records some of the old-school 80's thrashers were putting out in the early 90's, like The Black Album, The Ritual, and Countdown To Extinction. Because, when you look at The Black Album's Wikipedia article (I know, Wiki, the be-all end-all of metal knowledge, right?), it just lists the record's style as being "heavy metal", a genre description that obviously brings to mind groups like Maiden, Priest, whoever Dio ever sang with, etc. And, while I know every band out there tries to put their own spin on their particular style, and they don't get lumped into specific sub-genres because they sound 100% like [insert X band here], was the early 90's wave of "half thrash" really similar enough to those melodic, traditional metal bands to warrant the same label, or, as short-lived a trend it was, was it still distinctive enough from all that to need the "half thrash" label in order to further distinguish itself?

Half-thrash is a pointless label, and the black album could be called heavy metal. Maybe it's an easier term to speak than "heavy/thrash metal" but in writing, nope.

Sabbath started out playing blues and slowly evolved it into their doomish sound. So I guess its a matter off reincorporation. I don't think it is a genre because blues is so interlaid into the genre of rock and metal. Its like saying "Rock metal". That's just my opinion though.

Sub genres are getting out of hand in metal.

Dude that post was made on 13 Dec 2013 19:54.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now some of these terms deviate from what we consider here as legit metal, still if anyone can provide insight (no need for huge paragraphs just a few lines at the most) I'll be grateful so here it goes:
Chaotic hardcore vs mathcore (vs math metal; is this just another term for prog metal?)
Screamo vs emoviolence vs skramz vs emotive hardcore (is there any difference at all?)
'War' metal vs blackened death metal vs black/death metal (again, any difference or just different labeling for a same entity?)

Also another thing that intrigues me is the death/black, black/death or power/thrash, thrash/power sort of labeling. What does this order signify? Which genre is more prominent in such a case, the first or the second one?

PS: This is all just for information/fun, I keep hearing some of these terms and I just want to clarify what they mean.

Thanks!

Edit: Much thanks @ Zodijackyl & MDL666 for answering my preceding question!

Chaotic Hardcore might seem more as a way for you to categorize an hardcore music playing than a genre itself. It is mostly associated with powerviolence, crust and another extreme punk music styles. Check, for example, No Comment and Kaliyuga.

Mathcore is a very complex, jazzy and experimental style of hardcore that features a lot of "avant-garde-induced" rhythms and musicality. The music tends to be, therefore, extremely progressive. Check The Dillinger Escape Plan and Iwrestledabearonce.

Math metal is not really a genre at all, it's technically, mathcore per se. The math metal tag associated with it might come from people who erroneously refer to those aforementioned bands as heavy metal (same thing happens with, for example, Sleeping with Sirens and Of Mice & Men to be associated with the post-hardcore tag, which is passible to be mentioned as "metal/metalcore").
Progressive metal is a very diverse genre and it features maaany ways of playing, some more "mathematic" (aka very complex) than the others, but still, prog metal and mathcore are very different genres.

---------------

Screamo is a subgenre of punk/rock that haves a simple musicality and features screamed vocals along the songs. Back then, it was heavier and much more influenced by the extreme punk wave and nowadays, it truly sounds like alternative rock with screams. Check Till the Last Breath and Four Degrees Celsius

Emoviolence is not a "straightfoward" genre, but it is commonly associated with some chaotic and heavy type of hardcore music with more emotional-driven lyrics and melodies. It sounds pretty much like the first wave of screamo. Check Sleeping Body and Off Minor.

Skramz is another name for screamo.

Emotive hardcore, aka Emocore, is a more soothful and melodic hardcore style of music, not as heavy and powerful as the regular hardcore, that focuses more on anguished and screamed vocals (and lyrics). Check Gray Matter and Dag Nasty.

----------------------------

War metal is a very chaotic, fast and gloomy blend of both death and black metal with a "turby" production with a simultaneous resemblance of both genres riffing style. Vocals are commonly low growls. Check Blasphemy, ZOM and Archgoat (i'm recommending more bands because you'll need them in order to differenciante those genres).

Blackened death metal is just death metal with black metal influences, such as the tremolo riffing incorporated with death metal riffing style in a more subtile way than war metal. Vocals styles may vary from death growls to black metal typical screaming. Check Behemoth, Black September and Adorned in Ash.


About the ones with the slash bar: for what I've witnessing, it serves to demonstrate that a band plays, for example, both death and thrash genres, without any interference between them or that they play a specific style that mixes both or that the first genre features many influences by the one that is after the slash bar.

Here's an example: We have Revered Bizarre (doom metal) and Tristania (gothic metal). Then, we have Draconian, whose songs sound pretty much as a mixture between those two genres.

Then, there are bands like Laaz Rockit, which is labeled as thrash/power metal. In their case, this means that their thrash metal style of playing features many influences coming from power metal bands, such as Winterkill and even Persuader.

Finally, some bands just play many styles of music. I'll give you the example of a band that is not on MA: Bring me the Horizon. We could label them as deathcore/post-hardcore, meaning that they play both styles of music without one of them to interfer in the other.

I believe that most bands labeled as black/death metal on MA follow the critheria of the two points above or either, the "blackened death metal" tag is actually already implicit or tacit to the users.

@ MDL666: thanks for all the clarifications! Just another question, if that's okay, I've heard Revenge and it is extremely barbaric stuff, are there any more 'war' metal bands in that vein? Everything else labeled war metal that I've heard so far is a bit restrained compared to them.

@ Azmodes: looks like the same questions pop up every once in a while, props to you for not losing your shit!

Yes, Revenge is considered as a war metal band, as well along with another bands like Impaled Nazarene and Sarcofago. Even though the genre is not used on MA, the genre does exist, try to search more bands of the style on RateYourMusic, they're a accurate site most times

I posted a comprehensive list of war metal bands last year.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=102592&p=2547558#p2547558

Alright, thanks for all the help guys! Also I apologize for asking the same boring questions