I came across a band here with the genre "Death Metal with Heavy and Thrash elements". Is this the proper format, should I report this as an error?

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Pre ... 3540342442

That's comparably rare, but it's alright.

That one is particularly confusing because people were using "post-black metal" to describe things like Norwegian Grammy Metal(TM) bands who "grew up" and decided that playing regular black metal wasn't artsy enough anymore so incorporated things like prog, electronica and industrial to their sound. That happened a fairly long time ago, though. Then, more recently, you've got a lot of black metal bands that incorporate post-rock (post-rock is absolutely an established genre of music and has been for some time now) elements into their sound.

Example of the first kind:



Example of the second kind:

Hmm, that makes some sense. I've never been very good at knowing the differences between the various genres of metal, I've just been more of a "if I like it then who cares about the genre?" person. Though I do want to learn.

So, is there a such thing as "brutal black metal"? There seems to be brutal black/death metal, and of course brutal death metal, so does it exist without the death metal and just the black metal? I remember a few bands used to be tagged with it, like Unholy Matrimony and some others I don't remember.

Not a real genre. It only makes sense if used as an adjective, eg. they play some intense, brutal black metal.

Weeping Birth (also by Vladimir Cochet) has been described as "brutal black metal." But its genre is listed as "brutal death/black metal" now (think it may have been "brutal black metal" at some point). I definitely think it fits Weeping Birth, but brutal death/black metal definitely makes sense as well and can be easily applied to more than one band.

I never understood why some people used brutal black to describe Unholy Matrimony. It is definitely the most straightforward black metal band out of Vladimir Cochet's three main bands.

"Brutal black metal" isn't a term I've ever heard seriously used, it isn't in common usage in any form. I've seen the term used once or twice, for stuff that sounds like Deicide's "Scars of the Crucifix" with breakdowns and some other otherwise complete misattributions/misunderstandings.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that "brutal black metal" would inherently require musical elements recognizable as death metal - extreme downtuned heaviness and so forth - since that's what distinguishes brutal death metal (as a subgenre) from "regular" death metal. Though it would be interesting to see if one could somehow make BM riffs "brutal" without incorporating DM influences.

That's why genre questions like these can be kind of silly outside of common usage. Sure, someone could try to make "brutal black metal" but that wouldn't mean most people recognize it as that.

What genre is System of A Down? I tend to agree with the analysis of Scott Ian that they are straight up Thrash metal but I wonder what the other conclusions made by contributors were.

Alternative rock.

well alternative rock is a bit of an over simplification. They got elements from all sorts of genres and do have their share of metal riffs but most of their stuff definitely is not metal. i think to keep it simple its prob best to call them prog maybe a bit avant at places alt hard rock.

I am only familiar with Toxicity, and random songs that I have heard on college radio. I don't think they are thrash, not at all. I do think they are a form of metal, but I think they are more alternative metal.

I would never in a million years call SOAD a thrash band, but their later discography (which you wouldn't be familiar with if all you've heard is Toxicity) has its moments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk6w_dSA2_c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqOFZ1jHX0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmXFqPhbRr4&t=16s

In the 90's, post black metal was a sort of an experimental branch of the genre, like Ved Buens Ende or Fleurety. Over time, some black(ened) metal bands stated to use post-rock elements and the 'new' post-black metal stuff appreared.

Not to be confused with avantgarde, which was/is something too far from black metal to be called like that, even if it might have a bit of it yet. Arcturus stopped playing black metal after the debut. All the stuff from La Masquerade Infernale onwards is avantgarde (even Radical Cut doesn't qualify as black metal entirely).See that Solefald also did 1 black metal album and then mixed too much stuff to be tagged, then the avantgarde tag is the only way to refer to them.

In a world when bands like DHG, Manes, Unexpect and Code exists, it's really hard to say what those bands actually play.

And yeah, SOAD can't be called thrash metal at all. Alt rock is ok, even if it has some metal elements in some songs.

I remember once their guitarist being asked what he thought of people calling their music Armenian Rock, and even he chuckled at the idea that it could be called a style.

What's the difference between traditional black metal and raw black metal?

Nothing of any real concern. Some people use "raw black metal" to refer to really simple, punky stuff like Ildjarn, sometimes it refers to black metal/noise hybrids, sometimes it's just regular black metal with particularly lo-fi production. I think most of the time it's anything that sounds more abrasive than Emperor or something.

Raw black metal is also way less melodic than the standard black metal bands. The riffs are comprised more by power chords and simple progressions than melodic tremolo sections.

Well... Not necessarily, Kveldulfr! Firstly, how does "raw" modify the term "black metal"? The only thing that one could safely assume is that raw black metal is lo-fi. It's not as abstract as, say, "war metal" or some shit.

I think it's as melodic as any other black metal (except of course melodic black metal), you can't always hear it, though.

Bit of a weird question here. I used to see the genre tag "Modern Melodic Death Metal" used quite a lot for the newer wave of chuggier, groovier, slower Euro melodic death metal bands, often paired with keys. I've been noticing for a while now that it seems like that term is disappearing and after a quick search, it seems like there's not a single band anymore with that label (the closest is Melodic Death Metal/Modern Metal). My question is a) What happened? and b) Am I going crazy or did a lot of bands actually have their genre label changed to get rid of that term?

You're not going crazy. We're trying to get rid of "modern" in the genre field. It's an ambiguous, relative tag.

Well "melodic groove metal" would be the derogative term for all these newer melodeath bands. You could consider them as metalcore bands minus the breakdowns.

Also, what is "Suomi metal" and what's the difference between Suomi metal bands and gothic metal bands (like Paradise Lost, Type O Negative) that aren't considered as such?

You joke but I once worked in an office with a dude who played in a band Serj was managing. It was a whole Armenian rock subculture in Los Angeles. These bands played packed shows (mostly younger Armenian / Persian kids) and nobody outside of that knew who they were. Serj has pretty much made that his specialty. When I first learned of it I was really shocked. It's the same way there's pop singers who have sold millions of albums in South America and Asia but couldn't get arrested in the States.

Suomi is the Finnish name for Finland.

Gotcha.

Also, what's the difference between ambient black metal and atmospheric black metal?

ambient means that it takes elements from ambient music while atmospheric black metal tends to go for soundscape more than direct riffing.
I do not listen to a lot of ambient black metal but i think vinterriket are a decent example. Drudkh or say Vemod are decent examples of atmospheric black metal.

What's the difference between technical metal, math metal, fusion metal, and jazz metal?

None of those actually exist.

Well basically stuff like the last Atheist album and Exivious could be called fusion metal.

Ambient black metal: Blood of the Black Owl (kinda, it also has lots of doom metal in it, but I couldn't get a better example).
Atmospheric black metal: either Burzum or Summoning ripoffs.

But wouldn't Burzum rippoffs be ambient black metal since Burzum itself is ambient black metal?

The thing is atmospheric black metal is seen as an actual subgenre, pioneered by Burzum, Summoning and others, while ambient black metal is seen as an amalgamation of black metal and (dark or otherwise) ambient. Burzum has ambient tracks, but its kind of black metal is atmospheric black metal.

Ambient and black metal are two different styles of music. Non-metal genres such as ambient/dark ambient are used very broadly on this site, and they correspond to very broad styles, we simply generalize outside of metal as it isn't our domain. Burzum has some songs which are ambient, some songs which are black metal, and some which blend both styles - thus the band is labeled as black metal/ambient. Generalizations:

-Ambient generally refers to something like Burzum's second and third albums - not necessarily blended into metal, other than to start the first track of HVTO.
-Atmospheric usually refers to a constant sense of the music having a full atmosphere - usually filled out by synths or guitar fizz. See: Summoning.
-Atmospheric black metal is also commonly used to describe indie rock bands who discovered black metal aesthetics but not riffs.

That being said, the terms ambient black metal and atmospheric black metal don't necessarily describe distinct styles as they tend to overlap a lot. You'll find bands listed as "ambient/atmospheric black metal" like Aureole and Darkspace because, well, that seems to be the way to describe them. It's a case of "we know it when we hear it" but there's as much overlap as there is distinction.

I think there should be a new subgenre of thrash metal. While death metal has brutal death metal and black metal has bestial black metal (or war metal), thrash metal should have "aggressive thrash metal". While brutal death metal was influenced by bands like Cannibal Corpse and Suffocation, aggressive thrash metal could be influenced by bands like Morbid Saint and Demolition hammer. It could even have its own scene like brutal and slam death metal.

"Aggressive thrash metal" as opposed to all that non-aggressive thrash metal?

Morbid Saint and Demolition Hammer are already colloquially referred to as brutal thrash, just as bestial black metal and war metal are sometimes used to describe certain niches.

For a while I had Voivod's first four albums listed under "Really intense thrash metal" if that makes you feel happy.

Even though Voivod is technical thrash metal. So let me see if I got this right, death/thrash is simply a complete fusion of death metal and thrash metal, while brutal thrash metal is thrash metal with death metal influences, correct?

I also been thinking how industrial groove metal and cyber metal could differ from each other. Industrial groove metal bands would basically be Fear Factory worship (bands like Arkaea and Dagoba) while cyber metal bands would take influences from them, as well as Strapping Young Lad, Meshuggah, Soilwork, etc, and create futuristic soundscapes (bands like Sybreed and Logical Terror).

Also, does modern thrash metal have a certain sound of its own?

No, the bands that people usually refer to as "brutal thrash metal" are 100% thrash, just at the very extreme aggressive end of the spectrum. Seething vocals, neck-snapping riffs, speed, pounding drums. Raw aggression but not really death metal at all.

Modern thrash is most often just worship of old thrash except minus all of the interesting character that made old thrash good, and with generic modern metal Andy Sneap production.

Cyber metal sounds very dumb.