Well, which landmark speed metal album do you guys feel was more important to the development and sound of post-2000 heavy/speed/power metal? Also for the hell of it, which is your favorite of the two?

It'd probably have to be Painkiller, just for the sheer exposure that it has. It's a lot more well known than Thundersteel. But in terms of preference I'd edge it out slightly to Thundersteel. So damn good.

I'd say Thundersteel for more melodic styles of speed and power and Painkiller for the gruff speed/power in the german vein.

Are you guys kidding ? Or is it nostalgia ? I hope its not "vote for the obscure one cuz we are so trve".

Painkiller rapes Thundersteel six ways to Sunday (and thats saying something since Thudersteel is pretty great ). It is the epitome of metal. Plus Painkiller has gay cred (and leather).

Maybe we like Thundersteel better because of the heightened variety between songs, the more classic 70s/early 80s style melodies or the amazing vocals and guitarwork?

That's me anyway. Painkiller is still good though, and as for influence there's no contest, Painkiller influenced hundreds of heavy and power metal bands, especially in Germany. Thundersteel didn't really influence much of anything.

Of course Painkiller, with all respect to Thundersteel.
And both records are closer to traditional metal than power/speed.

Thundersteel by a country mile. Painkiller bores me. Scott Travis is a boring drummer, those disjointed flashy solos are kinda annoying and, most of all, the songs just aren't all that good. It's dumb fun to the point at which it becomes stupid. And there's a thin line between stupid and clever.

Priest lost it after Defenders of the Faith.

If we were to choose 'landmark' speed albums to vote for then I choose Walls of Jericho that did the speed thing better a few years prior But if I had to choose between the two, I would take Thundersteel as the album can still be spun even after countless plays, while Painkiller just doesn't elicit feelings of satisfaction anymore.

Hey, I even like Touch of Evil so what do I know.

But those are pretty valid points about Thindersteel's dynamics , variation and continuation/building on tradition.

For me Painkiller is all about the over the top vox that even Halford couldnt replicate, the beautiful perfect sounding lead work, the divine riff work, pounding rhythm section and to top it all off, a production that lets you hear every note. Much copied, seldom bettered.

Each to his own.

Thundersteel is amazing. However, Painkiller is just..... So ridiculous. And that's a compliment. The whole thing is a perfect sonic representation of its album cover; a chromed, angelic, hellish thunderbolt. Sure, you can accuse the album of being brainless or unsubtle, and I wouldn't try to argue otherwise, but honestly? I don't give a shit.

Nostalgia might be the one talking for me right now, as Painkiller was my first Priest album, but hell, it still sounds amazing.

A Touch of Evil is awesome, man. What are you ashamed of?

I even like Living Bad Dreams!

Thundersteel is a classic of the genre, but Painkiller is just the epitome of all things speed metal. The lead guitar work blows my head every time, evert lick is relentless, melodic, well placed...No competition, Painkiller wins both in quality and influence.

Thundersteel, easily

Painkiller is more influential and, in my opinion, the slightly better album.

P.S: The Walls of Jericho release that includes the Helloween EP is better than both

Walls of Jericho is kinda overrated for me, sure it's good and all with the riffs, but the vocals are just awful. And I guess that style just didn't interest me as much as what they became later.

While I still mantain that Painkiller is fucking amazing, I don't think that I agree when people say that it's influential. I mean, if you're going to point out influential Priest releases, then the S Trinity and the Screaming/Defenders duo are a much, much safer bet.

This betrayal shall not go unnoticed, Empyreal.

I've always had a soft spot for Kai's vocals, even though they are technically not that great. He hits the right notes at the right times.

This should be bannable.

Painkiller...on paper, should be awful. Middle age guys attacking modern speed metal, cringe inducing lyrics, etc....however, it's Judas Priest and Painkiller always wins for the same reasons Judas Priest always does. They have the ability to piece together ridiculous bits and make amazing metal music. Rob's lyrics alone are absurd but when perfectly paired against those guitars, everything just makes sense. Each vocal melody is AS GREAT as the guitar riffs and solo breaks. I normally don't even focus on guitar solos on most albums but the shit on the song "Painkiller" gets me everytime. It sounds like a buzzsaw searing through a bank vault door.

You could take my other 'all time favorite albums' and I'd still be nodding towards Painkiller. I don't care if it was influential or whatever else horseshit 'natural progression of heavy metal' argument people want to make. That doesn't matter. It just sounds killer and is the first thing I'd hand to someone who wants to know what "heavy metal" is. Pure audio adrenaline. The sound of engines roaring, armies marching, cities burning.

Yeah, and who said Riot were an obscure band? Lol, they're not.

Anyway, I enjoy Painkiller on occasion but I pretty much agree with the statement above. Title track and "One Shot at Glory' are huge fun, though.

Actually I kinda agree with Empy. Its really not that great, aside maybe from "Ride The Sky" and "Phantoms of Death", which are fantastic. All the other songs are either sub-par or plain retarded. There was another guy who said the EP attatched to it was better...agreed. "Murderer" is fucking awesome!

The EP always comes packaged with WoJ so I always think of them as the same album, but I guess they aren't technically. I agree, the EP is much better.

Thundersteel is great but i think that Painkiller is just superior (also better than Walls of Jericho, wich is also great of course). The vocals for example are just superior in Painkiller, even if they are good in Thundersteel.

Overall i think than Painkiller is easily much more influential, i mean by far. Most of the bands from the speed/power metal movement of the 90s and so on got a lot from Painkiller. Just listen to Primal Fear for example, the same could be said for bands like Gamma Ray, Metalium, Cage,etc.

I don't see why there's always this need to compare the two when Ram it Down already had a few songs exemplifying this sound, and when Thundersteel is far from 100% speed metal fury anyways. Thundersteel is still a really good album, but the highs don't come even close to Painkiller for me, and songs like Run for Your Life and Bloodstreets are much more forgettable than the weakest Painkiller tracks.

Overall, Priest is a bigger favorite of mine than Riot but I'll still take Thundersteel over Painkiller any day.
That album is perfectly sketched and just means so much to me. Maybe the influence it had on other power/speed metal bands isn't as marked as Priest's album but it is still there.

This Painkiller vs Thundersteel thing is fucking daft. I wouldn't say they were even all that comparable.

The only tracks I'd call sub-par are Reptile and Gorgar, but only when compared to the rest of the album, however, I do agree that the EP is better than the album and thankfully the re-release includes both + Judas wich makes it the finest speed metal album ever

Walls of Jericho is great for what it is but those vocals always bugged the fuck out of me.

This was my thought as well.

They're both incredible albums with near-infinite replaying value, provided you edit "Buried Alive (Tell Tale Heart)" out of ThunderSteel's playlist, of course, because we're only humans, after all, and that shit is offensively boring and cringeworthy as fuck.

I've listened to both of these albums thousands of times, sometimes in a loop, and they both stand the test of time and slap it in the face back and forth. They're the type of albums that I'll have one song stuck in my head and attempt to listen to that song to scratch the itch, but end up listening to the whole thing instead, sometimes multiple times in a row (again, bar the bullshit outro in TS' case).

Regarless, PainKiller is my favorite of the two by an extremely long shot. The ultimate power of Priest condensed into one unstoppable mothefucker. And no, it's not all about the title track and One Shot at Glory (in the crossfire overhead), it's equally about Night! Crawler crawler crawler and the Hell Patrol and All! Guns! ALL GUNS BLAZING! and all of the others. It's the one and only perfect Priest album. No fillers, all PAINKILLERS.

Influence is a non-issue. Of course PK influenced everybody and their momma throughout the power and speed and power/speed realm over the past 2+ decades, while TS may or may not have influenced a handful of mostly "retro" bands once dug up a few years after the fact.

Edit: Having said all that, don't get me wrong: Thundersteel is insanely awesome, and yes, it's more varied than Painkiller songwriting wise, and most of its songs are more catchy than should be humanly possible to achieve while still sounding metal as fuck and sporting such bone-chillingly sharp riffs. As for the lyrics, what a lot of you guys mentioned about PK is certainly also true of TS. Tell the boys to step aside and tell the girls to form a line so that they can have a shot at sucking my dick, because the King is back, and the king is called motherfucking Johnny, so be good! It doesn't get any more ridiculously faux-macho than that, guys. Not ever.


Really? After you've called Chris Broderick a "shredding monkey", that's strike two, man.
Travis is by far the best drummer Priest ever had, and his insanely stellar drumming might be the number one highlight of the masterpiece of awesomeness that is the PainKiller.

Ah Legend, really nice analysis as usual, but without having further time to go into it now as I am at work, I must say that I find Stained Class to be the perfect Priest album, and Binks the perfect Priest drummer.

That's pretty much it! Painkiller is a metal landmark despite, or maybe because, it is so over-the-top. It is one of those earlier "digitally recorded, mixed and mastered" albums. It embraced the digital recording technology to create something cold, furious and metal.

I think it's the better album of the two by a good margin but that's a matter of taste. I also think it is definitely much, much more influential. By 1990, many metalhead had branched out into either the glamorized side of commercial metal or toward thrash because lots of traditional heavy metal bands were showing signs of fatigue. The biggest band had the time was still Iron Maiden and I remember No Prayer For the Dying came out at about the same time as Painkiller because I bought both on the same record store trip. And I remember how fucking flat and lifeless "No Prayer" felt compared to Painkiller.

I am of the opinion that Painkiller's influence in 90's metal may not all be good, but it definitely can be felt. I think it gave a lot of heavy metal musicians the idea to pursue in the power metal direction. Take on a Helloween direction but with a beefier, straightforward edge.

I agree that Scott Travis' style can get redundant but on this album, it just fits! He, the guy you want for that type of album. I think it unfortunately influenced a lot of 90s metal drummers and beyond to stick to the very basics of his template but on this album, it fits. Same with Halford's vocals approach. Even though those weren't Halford's first screaming vocals, the vocals, particularly on the song Painkiller, are probably influential for good or bad. I mean, "Painkiller-type vocals" is still to this day a useful way to describe many singers, showing the influence of the album.

In short, while not Priest's best album, Painkiller is a really good one and for better or worse, extremely influential. Thundersteel is a cool album by a lesser known band that has aged very well. I personally think it compares better with Ram It Down, which came out at the same time. I find both uneven but with good moments.

Ha, I've been waiting to see whether LegendMaker and Riffs would pop up in this thread. Nice to see you here, guys

However, I must say that my previous comment regarding Painkiller's influence is something I still stand for. Speed metal as we know it now had already taken form by the time Painkiller was released, from what I understand. Again; if anything, I'd say that songs like Exciter or The Sentinel (SWOOOORN TO AVENGE!) were much more important in the development of the style.

Also, Nightcrawler fucking rules. Glad to see that tune mentioned here.

This man speaks the truth.

I actually don't like Painkiller as much as most, it's certainly not my favorite Priest album, but it is a fucking ripper without a doubt and the sheer power exuded through those songs is seldom touched... even by the masterwork that is Thundersteel. I honestly can't compare the two, especially since there's a pretty marked difference in the approach each band takes. Sure they both have phenomenal vocalists but the comparison almost ends there and really, aside from the fantastic falsettos performed by both Halford and Moore, there isn't really much to objectively compare. The riffs, the drumming, the pacing of the songs... two totally different beasts... and when I say beasts I mean fucking monoliths that will forever set the bar for heavy/speed/power metal bands to come until the end of time.

Yeah, he's a fucking dull drummer. Flashy, but not really interesting. Broderick sucks, too. They deserve each other... they should form a band together! Priest would have been better off with Bobby from Riot (tellingly, Halford hired him for his solo band), he's just as technically accomplished but tends to play with a lot more dynamic range. Outside of that, Painkiller's "viagra metal (cuz we haven't been able to keep it up since '84" falls flat. 'Between the Hammer and the Anvil' is a cool track, but elsewhere it's... too dumb, too OTT and too heartless for my liking. Thundersteel is similar to Painkiller but with some immortal soul added.

Les Binks and Simon Phillips were both far superior drummers for Priest, too!

Yes and no. That speed metal was already a full-fledged and very well-defined metal subgenre by 1990 is a given, but it doesn't mean it didn't further evolve from that point forward, and PainKiller most certainly had a major impact in that development. Even though the style showcased on PK wasn't 100% unheard of (as I hinted at in the past, parts of Sanctuary's superb debut album were fairly much right there almost three years prior). It's just that PK was an entire album done in this particular fashion, balls-out and over-the-top all the way through, and it had a hughe impact on later power/speed acts, even those who had already been very much influenced by earlier Priest classics. Citing Primal Fear almost feels like cheating, as that band's entire career can fairly much be summarized by the phrase "PainKiller worship with a thin Gamma Ray coating", but you can also hear plenty of PK influence in bands like Metalium, Pharaoh, Brainstorm, Firewind, and indeed late-period Gamma Ray and Helloween alike, to name a few.
Also, right back at you, dude.



Alright guys, gotta agree to disagree on Scott Travis (except for the idea of a band with Broderick and Travis on board, that could be great ^^). I mean, I hear what you guys are saying, but I simply disagree; his style is anything but boring to my ears. He's flashy, yes, in an awesome way, extremely competent and his relentless pounding drives the songs exactly like late-period Priest needs. More generally, between that and his lack of appreciation for Chris Broderick's astounding lead guitar work, I'm starting to suspect that our very own national acrobat might simply be turned off by overly technical or flashy musicianship, which is fair; to each his own.

Let me clarify a couple of things, though: Les Binks was strictly awesome (he composed one of Priest's key signature songs, for one thing) and most certainly THE drummer for 70s Priest, no argument there. 'Stained Class' is also unquestionably a monster of a masterpiece and it contains several songs that are each more important than any song off of Painkiller, such as "Saints in Hell", the title track or the aforementioned BtRoD. However, as an "album as a whole", SC doesn't work nearly as well as PK; it contains an awful track in "Heroes End", two significantly weaker tracks in "Savage" and "White Heat, Red Hot", and a cover right in the middle of the album which, despite being a magnificent song in and of itself, that Priest very much "made its own" as the saying goes, still diminishes the overall "that's the stuff we're made of" value of the album in my eyes, by its very presence and placement. In sharp contrast, PainKiller just flows perfectly from start to finish and is devoid of any cover, filler or significantly weaker track.

Simon Phillips, though, ANA? The session drummer who included handclaps in "Starbreaker" and reinforced the ill-fitting soft prog-rock feel and production values of 'Sin After Sin' more than a little with his slow-ass, soft, borderline jazzy drum work throughout the album (despite the bulk of the composed material itself having no business at all being mixed up with soft prog rock)? That guy was a better fit for Priest than the man whose 15 second drum intro might just be the single most instantly recognizable and headbang-inducing moment of Priest's entire career? Alright, I'm cutting you off. No more crackpipe after midnight for you until you come back to your senses, dude.

Putting Pharaoh in the same breath as Firewind and Metalium, Legend? That makes me sad. I wouldn't say they're primarily Painkiller influenced either - much more to their music than that.

Hey! Early Metalium rocks! (Firewind sucks enough for at least two bands, though, I'll give you that ^^). And to be fair, I never said primarily. I know how much you love Pharaoh, and with good reason: it's a great band with a lot of class and a strong identity. But these guys still had influences, and I think PK-era Priest is one of them (though it's certainly not the main, let alone the only one).

Painkiller is a massively overrated, incredibly vapid album. It's like Priest deliberately turned their brains off and decided to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Thundersteel is overrated too but at least I don't feel like it's insulting my intelligence. So I guess it wins, if I have to pick one.

Can I pick neither?

'Painkiller' always seemed to me a tad pretentious. Go ahead and crucify me, I don't care.
The title track especially and 'All Guns Blazing' are not subtle at all. They are one dimensional. Don't get me wrong, I love the visceral approach but I always beg to differ when people consider it the best Priest record. There's so much more character to the stuff on 'Screaming For Vengeance', 'Defenders of the Faith' and 'Ram It Down' than 'Painkiller' and of course, '70's Priest is perfection defined. 'Painkiller' to me is the midlife crisis, a helluva crisis, but one nonetheless.

You can wash your hands now, Pilate!