Just wondering if anyone knows why a lot of BM artists, and all its subgenres, are obsessed with JRR Tolkein The Lord of the Rings?

There is a lot of hope and even Christian overtones in the books.

Because it is a quick and easy way to add fantasy themes and lyrics without actually thinking at all. It has become so cliche. So overdone. God I hated that those movies came out, ruined LOTR for me, so many overnight Tolkien experts.

It is because black metal is largely made up of...

I remember reading an interview, mightve been Shagrath, and he said if he knew LOTR would become so popular he wouldn't have used the name. Were the books really popular in northern Europe?

I can understand Trad/Power bands being inspired by it...but it just doesn't seem compatible with all the misanthropy/anti-Christianity/depression/etc. thats associated with most BM.

It started with Burzum, who wanted to fuse music with his love for fantasy RPGs and put a darker spin on it that could be tied to early European culture.

Personally I love the Tolkein/medieval fantasy themes in black metal. It just wouldn't be the same without.

Tolkein is also some of the best fantasy fiction ever written, and reading the Silmarillion is highly recommended, highly surreal and otherworldly!!

But people are right to assume there's other stuff out there....

How about Lord Dunsany or H.P Lovecraft's Dream Cycle era??? Or yes, why not create their own fantasy worlds they can reference??

And yes, Tolkein was a Christian (a very traditional Catholic, he was responsible for converting C.S. Lewis), but was very strict about leaving it out of Middle Earth, basing that fiction completely on mythological fairytales.

It's not just a black metal thing. Power metal is rife with it of course, but you can even find it in death metal if you poke around. See Unleashed's "We Must Join with Him" for an example.

yes, extremely

I think one of the most impressive parts of tolkiens fantasy world was the evil characters. Tolkien had a knack for making things not just evil but really fucking evil. I think black metal people and people in general find that appealing in his stories

^^ yeah most bm artists aren't interested in the hobbit part of LOTR. Its the evil contained in the books. If you think about it, Morgoth and Sauran were obsessed with twisting and perverting everything good in Middle-EArth and were on a life long quest of genocide. Sounds pretty black metal to me.

Also I forgot to mention that Norse BM artist are often proud of their heritage. Tolkien may have been an englishman, but his books were largely inspired by Norse mythology, so again bm artists can relate to it.

Oh, fuck Grishnakh and Shagrat! Orcs are pathetic! The coolest character in Tolkien's legendarium is Fëanor! Not only did he make the Silmarils, but he (literally) shut the door in Morgoth's face once. Keep in mind, Morgoth is the most powerful entity (except for Eru).

On a more serious note: Are there really that many LotR themed black metal bands? From the top of my head, I can think of Burzum and Gorgoroth, but neither of them ever had any songs on the subjet (No, "En ring til aa herske" is not about what you think). Summoning has built their concept on Tolkien's work.

I did a search, so we can discuss... you know, facts! I guess OP was right about black metal being on the top on this theme.

Entries with Tolkien as a theme:
- black metal (78)
- power metal (26)
- death metal (21)
- doom (8)

Horna used Lord of the Rings very prominently in their lyrics in the days when Satanic Warmaster sang. In particular, The Nine and something about them regaining power seems to be a common theme. I haven't read those lyrics very closely. The ones Shatraug wrote for Corvus are the actually good ones.

What the hell kind of point is that? I guess black metal with a focus on Satan must perplex the fuck out you.

As if LOTR was occult and obscure literature the books were damn popular before the movies, of course, everybody knows about LOTR now, but it's really a bad thing? young generations knew about Tolkien's greatness trough the movies, fine with me!



Another thing with Tolkien's literature...it's and endless source of badass names
There are many authors that have been overused in metal, H.P Lovecraft and Tolkien are the clearest example....wonder were all the G.R.R Martin inspired bands are! also I'd love some more Clive Barker worship.

George Martin never produces anything even remotely as impressive, mystical, well-developed or immersive as Tolkien. Which is more impressive, Jaime Lannister or a bloody Balrog?

That's not to say A Song of Ice And Fire isn't highly entertaining. It's simply not even in the same class when it comes to immersion, depth and sheer grandeur. Lord of the Rings is something magical, whereas Martin simply wrote some highly enjoyable fantasy.

sure, I think it's a metal thing generally. ALso a lot of old prog rock references TOlkien.

Of course with black metal it is a bit different because one seeks to highlight not the heroisim of specific LOTR characters, or quests, but one of the following:
1. The dark power of Sauron, his corruption, etc, linking this in an emotional way to the satan myth in christianity, I suppose.

2. The longing for ancient, long-dead times...essentially, romantic nostalgia for "The Shire". This is compatible with a certain swath of black metal's rejection of contemporary notions of urbanisation, industrialisation, etc, and marks a desire to return to a simpler and more "natural" lifestyle. The idea is that the creatures untouched by the conflicts of the other races in Middle Earth, who lay protected in their shire oblivious to the goings on of the world around them, all this is a good thing and that's what right-minded people should aspire to. That is sort of how I interpret certain artists, anyway. Not staking my own view on this as I feel that's irrelevant and anyway, I rather like living in a big smelly city.

Yeah, really. Think the only song I know is Midnight Meat Train by Manilla Road.

Amen, man. I always have, and always will think the same way. I mean, Steve Erikson has written some of seriously the best fantasy out there since Tolkien himself, but it's still not on the same level. Not quite.

This is true, LOTR is basically fiction based on norse-mythology's stories.



The most read books ever has been said to be the Bible and The Lord of the Rings, Lord being number 2. So it has been popular for a long time. So as a person said earlier about Shagrath is just weird considering it was already popular.

By the way you shouldn't post more Ian you have 666 posts.

...So what it comes down to is that Norse-Mythology and Christianity is the most interesting world-views.

Yeah well, we all know how these black metal musicians can be. Arrogant as hell, and totally oblivious.

Not necessarily. People would be reading books on actually Norse Mythology if that were the case. Haha. Also, the bible isn't a popular read because it's necessarily interesting. It's kind of required reading if you're any kind of decent Christian, regardless of whether you find the subject matter captivating, or not.

Except for the fact that they seem to hate Christianity and love LOTR.....

I'm talking purely about imagery/theme inspiration. We don't need to elaborate on why a work of fantasy fiction attracts a different reaction than a book of repugnant doctrines.

You can find christian allusions in LOTR if you want, but Tolkien himself would have discouraged you from doing so. Stop acting as though taking a stand against christianity means that you have to reject every single work in history ever made by a christian.

You say this as if LOTR wasn't already the bedrock in which a vast majority of Fantasy is based off of. The series was hardly in obscurity before the movies, and I'm pretty sure most of the LOTR waving metal bands came PRIOR to the movies (in fact, I can't think of a single significant, modern LOTR themed band). Also, wasn't Tolkien totally a hardcore Christian who HATED the pagan ties people made to LOTR? Not that I think black metal has to oppose everything made by a christian, but it doesn't seem to stick strictly to Norse-specific paganry either, seeing as there's a lot of germanic, english and Greek-inspried stuff as well.

I doubt Tolkien was even aware of people attempting to make pagan connections with LOTR. He might not have approved either though.

It's obviously not supposed to be "pure norse mythology", merely inspired by the same. Not sure about the Greek stuff you mentioned but it could be in there as well. sO that's another pagan culture directly inspiring a christian to create a work of art. Nothing incompatible with black metal.

I actually get the idea that Tolkien might have disapproved of a lot of things. See the recent article/interview with his son where he decries what his father's work has come to as a result of the films, etc.

Well Christopher Tolkien's a bit of a wanker. He's basically a generic old curmudgeon who doesn't understand modern art forms and thinks any association of his father's IP with new media amounts to the sullying of a great legacy.

Men after my own heart!

I've drawn similar conclusions from reading interviews with him. Yet he's racking in the dough from royalties and his father sold the film rights, anyway.

Well right off the bat I can think of a few black metal bands besides the ones listed influenced by LotR. There's Cirith Gorgor and Minas Morgul (the German one) who got their names off the Middle-earth map. Blade Jade and the short-lived Ringwraith have lyrics based on Tolkien's works, and some of the Black Jade's lyrics are actually in Elvish (though I doubt their accuracy). So in response to raumr, yes, I think there are many LotR-themed black metal bands out there. It's not an exaggeration. You ended up figuring that out through the search engine but having been into black metal almost exclusively a few years ago, I can recall finding an overwhelming amount of bands with this theme, at least in their names.

This seems like the best explanation.

Well, Nocternity's founding member has used Khal Drogo as an alias since the band's inception, and they have a song called Valyrian Steel (Blood of the Dragon), but that's about it so far, I believe.

Sure they were, but the big-budget films have taken it from a beloved literature series into an institution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feXnC1kJQoc

Give these guys a shot if you like power metal at all. Oddly enough, they're actually the reason why I ever heard of George R. R. Martin in the first place.

Honestly, I think metal without fantasy, especially black metal without fantasy, would be like a French restaurant that serves neither bread, cheese, nor wine.

One thing is that pretty much all underground musical subcultures, metal, goth, industrial, ambient, is made up of proud geeks.
Honestly, if I hadn't been a D&D/Warhammer gaming geek back in those very crucial years during my early teens, I probably would have missed out on black metal completely, along with a lot of other metal.
It just wasn't enough to be a "satanic metal band". There were already loads of Satanic death metal bands of varying quality, but black metal's connection to fantasy and mythology, and it's focus on those dark, ancient atmospheres, really set it apart and communicated to me on a much deeper level than Deicide ever could.

And when it comes to fantasy, few if any artists really touch the epic quality that Tolkein has. There is no fantasy artist after him who hasn't been influenced by him in some way, shape, or form. His work is innocent, familiar, and nostalgic enough to be pulled from a childhood fairytale (The Hobbit), but with an epic depth to it to make it feel like you're reading lost chronicles of a pre-existing ancient civilization on some other world (The Silmarillion).

He was for sure influenced by the Bible, but he was also very much influenced by Greek mythology and more unconsciously by Norse mythology. The Finnish Kalevala and Japanese Kojiki could have also been influences. He didn't want to openly involve religion in his work though, as that was what he always hated about the tales of King Arthur and Camelot.

One odd thing though, is that he rejected the thought of Middle Earth being described as "Nordic", because that suggested racialism, to which he was openly opposed.
He may have started out with some racist tendencies symptomatic of the times he grew up in (patterning orcs after Mongols), but into his later years, he was very vocal about his hatred towards racism and national socialism.
That must definitely be a slap in the face to Varg Vikernes!!

I would say the only other fantasy writer nearly as influential as Tolkein was Lord Dunsany, who inspired Tolkein.

Where are all of the Erikson bands? I mean Caladan Brood is good but we need some more! Also I think you guys are blowing this up just a bit because I know of a lot of bands who use names from LOTR but not many where every song is centered around LOTR.

By the way, it's Tolkien and not Tolkein.

While I like LOTR in metal, more bands should explore Moorcock! Skelator did an awesome job with their Agents of Power concept album.

I think Summoning were also supposed to have done a song or two based on Moorcock.

Moorcock's work always struck me as awkward due to the fact he went over the top in pushing his political views into his work by creating stereotypes.
Especially his feminist views and how he portrayed his male characters.

Prior to being made into major mainstream films, despite the success of the books, LOTR was still a sort of esoteric, mystical, and cryptic fantasy world. Even with millions of copies of each book, the vast majority of people were unfamiliar with them, and few immersed in and familiar with the fantasy world. This sort of arcane theme fits the motivations and ideologies of a certain type of imaginative black metal - they were trying to use another art to create the same sort of realm of fantasia. Compare it to Michael Moorcock's writings now - a lot of people have heard the name, he is both famous and critically acclaimed, but the vast majority of people are unfamiliar with say, the Elric series, and maybe one in a thousand would know who Slortar the Old is - the obscurity of the subject of Sacramentum's "Overlord" would compare to how the LOTR references in older black metal was.

Varg Vikernes covered this well:

"At the time - before the release of "The Lord Of The Rings" films by Peter Jackson, I may add - its meaning was pretty much solis sacerdotibus. Only initiates, so to speak, knew what it meant. Only people who had a special interest in Tolkien's world would know, and that was kind of cool - or so I thought. It enabled the listeners to feel special and to feel that Burzum was made especially for them (and it was)."
http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/a_bur ... ry01.shtml

Erikson and Barker are bad writers, though. Like, really bad.

I'd like to see some metal about Gene Wolfe's stuff. I'm sure it exists; anyone know of it?

I know a lot of people don't like them, but The Sword also have the a couple songs, Take the Black being the only one I can remember.

not sure if this was mentioned, but LOTR is heavily based on Norse pagan mythology.

Clive isn't a bad writer at all, despite his preoccupation with sex and religion.
Most of his stuff works well as low fantasy....

The Great and Secret Show was interesting, but began really slow.

The stuff of his I can't stand though, is his more comedic stuff like Mister B. Gone or Jack and the Yattering.